Lowlight Photography with and without flash

[rpcrowe]

Lucas... It all depends on what you want to show... Different photographers see things in different ways and want to record them differently, just as different musicians can play the same song in a variety of ways. That is why we shoot images, to bring home what interests and pleases us, and to record life in the way we see things...

As an example Daisy Mae has a style of photography which I very much enjoy viewing. That doesn't mean that I would want to try to emulate her style. I don't think I could if I tried because I just don't see things the way that Daisy Mae sees.

John... I often use my flash as just a bit of fill in order to enhance the available light (fill in shadows, etc) rather than to overwhelm the existing light. In fact, I will often need so little extra light that my tiny 270EX or 270EXii (with a Demb Photojournalist Flip-It) is quite sufficient. That tiny flash is certainly easy to carry..



Canon 30D with 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens. ISO 400, 1/60 second @ f/4 with 270EX hotshoe mounted bounced off the ceiling and modified with a Demb Photojournalist Flip-It



Canon 30D with 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens. ISO 640, 1/60 second @ f/5.6 with 270EX hotshoe mounted bounced off the ceiling and modified with a Demb Photojournalist Flip-It

I will admit that these images are not straight out of the camera and have been edited to tweak them as I desire. In these cases the tweaking was to return the scene to the way I remembered seeing it...

If I am on a shoot in which I am planning to do a lot of portraits and if I was not planning to walk around for 8-10 hours carrying my gear; I would use my flash on a Stroboframe Camera Flip Bracket which allows the flash to remain directly over my lens in either landscape or portrait positions. The flash bounced off the ceiling (or a wall) modified with the Flash Diffuser Pro provides, IMO, quite nice and flattering lighting...







The above were done with a 7D and 70-200mm f/4L IS lens. ISO 200, 1/60 second @ f/4 with 550EX bounced off the ceiling using a Stroboframe camera-flip bracket and a Flash Diffuser Pro.

This allows some modeling with a single flash and doesn't produce a burned out and flat looking image like straight on flash does. The "deer-in-the-headlights" is not, IMO, flattering. However, I have noticed that some fashion photographers are using it lately and I don't really like that type of lighting...

[Shadowman]

I wonder if the stigma (burnt out effect) associated with flash photography stems from both film photography with flash and the on-camera flash which cannot be re-directed only diffused. With film you definitely had to get the shot or walk away, especially with night photography of moving subjects. With digital on-camera flash, you can at least review your results and if you don't like what was achieved with flash; you can decrease the intensity of the flash or use front or rear-sync to delay how or when light reaches the sensor or flash reaches the subject.

[William W]

f/11, 1/200s, 70mm, ISO 200 flash used, Jul. 6:41pm.. I had to or else their faces would have been thrown into the shadows.

I am curious:

What is in the background - Blue Sky?
What Camera did you use?
Is that a full frame crop of the image?
What was the Flash unit used?

WW

[Shadowman]

I am curious:

What is in the background - Blue Sky?
What Camera did you use?
Is that a full frame crop of the image?
What was the Flash unit used?

WW

William,

The background is mostly water, some blue sky above. The two women were backlit by the setting Sun so I used on-camera flash set at 1/32 power. The camera is crop sensor Nikon D60. The image wasn't cropped. I was using the 70-300mm lens.

[rpcrowe]

"I wonder if the stigma (burnt out effect) associated with flash photography stems from both film photography with flash and the on-camera flash which cannot be re-directed only diffused."

The saying among press photographers was "F/8 and there!"

Actually, in the "Dark Ages" when press photographers shot with 4x5" press cameras (in the USA, these were most often the Speed or Crown Graphic models - with the Speed Graphic incorporating an accessory focal plane shutter at the cost of extra weight), we often shot with the flashgun (using flashbulbs) off camera.

The Graphic flashgun had a solenoid trigger allowing you to fire the camera and flash from the flash unit which was often stretched high and to the left of the camera. This would tend to place the shadow to image right and below the subjects head. It took a pretty strong photographer to manage a 4x5 inch press camera single handed. The Speed weighed about 7 pounds (3.17 kg) while the Crown weighed 6 pounds (2.72 kg); a bit lighter than the speed but still a bearcat to manage single handed. That is, they were hard to handle if your forearms weren't built like Popeye the Sailor

[William W]

Thanks for answering.

The reason for my question was I noted the tell tale rectangular shaped specular reflection in the sunglasses of the woman camera right, here:



Noting this, I was 99% sure that you used a Direct Flash that was Camera Mounted (aka "a speedlite on the hotshoe"), . . .

BUT - I could not see any evidence of Flash as Fill. That is to say I could not see any evidence of shadows on the faces being filled or shadows being created by the Speedlite.

Then I had a quick check of the Tech Specs and you mentioned that you use 70mm - why I wanted to know the camera format and if the image was cropped, was to estimate the SD (Subject Distances).

With a 70mm lens on APS-C you'd be at about 12 ft to pull that shot.

With a typical (High-Powered) Speedlight we only have a FWD (Flash Working Distance) of about 12ft to fill in backlit, hard sun.

So, I then concluded that you were at the edge of the Flash's Working Distance Limit - even if you have a powerful speedlite like an SB800 or SB900.

Certainly with the additional information I cannot compute how at 1/32nd power there would be any effect from the flash.

***

This is a bit earlier in the afternoon, but the rules of engagement for Flash as Fill in backlit sun remain the same:



Note firstly that the AMBIENT EXPOSURE of the back-ground sky and water is made 'correct'.

And then I had to make the Flash's WORKING DISTANCE close enough, to ensure that I had enough FLASH POWER to FILL the Subjects' in shadow areas to match the Ambient Exposure.

To ensure that I had enough power I was working at about 8ft, and I was using an APS-C camera and a 16 to 35 lens.

Knowing and working within the Flash Working Distance is most critical for Flash as Fill, especially for Flash as Fill in backlit sun, as this is one of the most demanding Flash as Fill situations.

WW

[Shadowman]

Thanks for answering.

The reason for my question was I noted the tell tale rectangular shaped specular reflection in the sunglasses of the woman camera right, here:



Noting this, I was 99% sure that you used a Direct Flash that was Camera Mounted (aka "a speedlite on the hotshoe"), . . .

BUT - I could not see any evidence of Flash as Fill. That is to say I could not see any evidence of shadows on the faces being filled or shadows being created by the Speedlite.

Then I had a quick check of the Tech Specs and you mentioned that you use 70mm - why I wanted to know the camera format and if the image was cropped, was to estimate the SD (Subject Distances).

With a 70mm lens on APS-C you'd be at about 12 ft to pull that shot.

With a typical (High-Powered) Speedlight we only have a FWD (Flash Working Distance) of about 12ft to fill in backlit, hard sun.

So, I then concluded that you were at the edge of the Flash's Working Distance Limit - even if you have a powerful speedlite like an SB800 or SB900.

Certainly with the additional information I cannot compute how at 1/32nd power there would be any effect from the flash.

***

This is a bit earlier in the afternoon, but the rules of engagement for Flash as Fill in backlit sun remain the same:



Note firstly that the AMBIENT EXPOSURE of the back-ground sky and water is made 'correct'.

And then I had to make the Flash's WORKING DISTANCE close enough, to ensure that I had enough FLASH POWER to FILL the Subjects' in shadow areas to match the Ambient Exposure.

To ensure that I had enough power I was working at about 8ft, and I was using an APS-C camera and a 16 to 35 lens.

Knowing and working within the Flash Working Distance is most critical for Flash as Fill, especially for Flash as Fill in backlit sun, as this is one of the most demanding Flash as Fill situations.

WW

William,

Thanks for the explanation and the analysis. My working distance was closer to within 3 feet of the women and that may explain how there was very little shadow development or flash intensity.

I took one test shot (manual mode-1/250s, f/11, 1ev, S 200), realized the backlighting wouldn't work without a lot of adjustments, so I went to flash (shutter decreased to 1/200s) knowing it was set at decreased intensity. I was able to get the shot quickly, make it look like I knew what I was doing, and the two ladies got photos of themselves.

The only external flash system that I have right now is the R1C1 which has the SU-800 speedlight commander and off camera flash units SB-R200. I plan to use these for some flash work and I might have a model hold them ala Joe McNally. As I get more into flash photography I might invest in a hot shoe flash.

[Shadowman]

"I wonder if the stigma (burnt out effect) associated with flash photography stems from both film photography with flash and the on-camera flash which cannot be re-directed only diffused."

The saying among press photographers was "F/8 and there!"

Actually, in the "Dark Ages" when press photographers shot with 4x5" press cameras (in the USA, these were most often the Speed or Crown Graphic models - with the Speed Graphic incorporating an accessory focal plane shutter at the cost of extra weight), we often shot with the flashgun (using flashbulbs) off camera.

The Graphic flashgun had a solenoid trigger allowing you to fire the camera and flash from the flash unit which was often stretched high and to the left of the camera. This would tend to place the shadow to image right and below the subjects head. It took a pretty strong photographer to manage a 4x5 inch press camera single handed. The Speed weighed about 7 pounds (3.17 kg) while the Crown weighed 6 pounds (2.72 kg); a bit lighter than the speed but still a bearcat to manage single handed. That is, they were hard to handle if your forearms weren't built like Popeye the Sailor

Richard,

I remember those flash setups, they always looked so easy to handle. I was also reading "Mastering Digital Flash" and the positioning of the flash you described was mentioned, side-lighting to bring out the form in figures and how it is still considered a front light source because the source can only be extended so far to the side of the subject.

[rpcrowe]

Richard,

I remember those flash setups, they always looked so easy to handle. I was also reading "Mastering Digital Flash" and the positioning of the flash you described was mentioned, side-lighting to bring out the form in figures and how it is still considered a front light source because the source can only be extended so far to the side of the subject.

The flash was easy to handle, but the camera was a bearcat

There was not a lot of bounce flash used in the days before auto flash exposure (and especially TTL flash control). Bouncing a manual flash (either flashbulb or electronic flash) was quite difficult since you basically had to consider the distance to and from the surface bounced off as well as the absorption of the surface that you were bouncing off. This was always too complicated for a guy like me who cannot walk and chew gum at the same time.

[AB26]

Richard,

"the light is all."
Lukas

Lukas, I believe all Photographers will agree with that statement. It is really all in the light. But understanding that statement you must also understand “seeing” the light. It is not a matter of always only using available light to capture the mood. Photographers have to learn how to “create” the light, as well. No matter what method is used, flash , strobe or whatever tools the Photographer has available, mastering the technique of “creating” the light to create the mood in that moment in time is part of mastering the Art of painting with light.

With all due respect to the image of Richard, you are referring to. Richard might not be up to scratch using flash under circumstances like that. Without prejudges, if that same shot was taken by Neil Van Niekerk it would have been a different kettle of fish all together. Look at Richards “Doggy Studio” shots, you cannot fail him on that.

If you can learn to use artificial light creatively, you will widen your horizon in Photography.

[AB26]

When to Use Flash in Low Light
Reasons for…
1. To increase working shutter speed
2. To increase depth of field (by
allowing a smaller aperture)
3. To help freeze subject movement
4. To reduce the time between
successive shots (assuming the flash
can charge fast enough)

Reasons against…
1. When a tripod and slow shutter speed could be used
2. Subject out of flash range
3. Changes the atmosphere of the ambient lighting
4. Draws the subject’s attention to camera’s presence

Taken from “Mastering Digital Flash Photography:the complete reference guide”, by Chris George 2007, Lark Books

Of the listed reasons against, I wholeheartedly agree with #4. I will not use flash if it puts a performer in danger, such as a fire dancer, or if flash would be annoyingly irritating such as in a very dark venue.

John, I might interpret these points incorrectly. I am however, not sure if I can fully agree with all of the points made.

Point #1: Flash is not used to increase shutter speed in low light. Flash is indeed the “shutter speed” when you use flash. Flash can be used at any shutter speed below maximum sync speed and it will freeze action. That is the reason the technique of “dragging the shutter” is so effective.
Point#2: Not really a reason for using flash in low light. If shooting in low light with only static subjects you can increase DOF without using flash.
Point #3: Flash WILL FREEZE ALL subject movement. It will not merely help freeze movement.
I do not understand #4 either. How can flash reduce the time between successive shots. With or without flash my D200 can run bursts of 5FPS. Depending on the strength of light needed by the flash, to properly expose the subject, either only one shot will be properly exposed of all five shots will be properly exposed. Flash does indeed slow down the time between successive shots.

Reasons against:
Point #1: When tripod and a slow shutter speed can be used you can get amazing shots by “dragging the shutter”.
Point#2: That is common sense.
Point#3: If flash changes the atmosphere of ambient light you simply do not know how to use flash.
Point#4 is the only point I can wholeheartedly agree with for the same reasons you mentioned.

Please help me out here, am I missing the Flash Bus?

[Shadowman]

John, I might interpret these points incorrectly. I am however, not sure if I can fully agree with all of the points made.

Point #1: Flash is not used to increase shutter speed in low light. Flash is indeed the “shutter speed” when you use flash. Flash can be used at any shutter speed below maximum sync speed and it will freeze action. That is the reason the technique of “dragging the shutter” is so effective.
Point#2: Not really a reason for using flash in low light. If shooting in low light with only static subjects you can increase DOF without using flash.
Point #3: Flash WILL FREEZE ALL subject movement. It will not merely help freeze movement.
I do not understand #4 either. How can flash reduce the time between successive shots. With or without flash my D200 can run bursts of 5FPS. Depending on the strength of light needed by the flash, to properly expose the subject, either only one shot will be properly exposed of all five shots will be properly exposed. Flash does indeed slow down the time between successive shots.

Reasons against:
Point #1: When tripod and a slow shutter speed can be used you can get amazing shots by “dragging the shutter”.
Point#2: That is common sense.
Point#3: If flash changes the atmosphere of ambient light you simply do not know how to use flash.
Point#4 is the only point I can wholeheartedly agree with for the same reasons you mentioned.

Please help me out here, am I missing the Flash Bus?

Andre,

If you reread post #33 you'll see that the list was attributed to the author Chris George in his book "Mastering Digital Flash Photography", I added the fifth against in the following thread. As I am new to the flash game myself, I haven't had the opportunity to put them all to test as yet. I am sure every one of his statements could be debated. One of the reasons I added so much detail about the book is to give others the opportunity to read it as well.

[AB26]

Bouncing a manual flash (either flashbulb or electronic flash) was quite difficult since you basically had to consider the distance to and from the surface bounced off as well as the absorption of the surface that you were bouncing off. This was always too complicated for a guy like me who cannot walk and chew gum at the same time.

Richard, and I thought I was stupid for not being able to master bounce flash photography. With my SB80 I only have two options, Auto or Manual, no TTL.

Have you ever tried bouncing a flash off a red wall?

[AB26]

Andre,

If you reread post #33 you'll see that the list was attributed to the author Chris George in his book "Mastering Digital Flash Photography", I added the fifth against in the following thread. As I am new to the flash game myself, I haven't had the opportunity to put them all to test as yet. I am sure every one of his statements could be debated. One of the reasons I added so much detail about the book is to give others the opportunity to read it as well.

John,

I did read the post. I am not attributing those points to you.
Have you noticed I did not comment on your Point #5

[William W]

. . . My working distance was closer to within 3 feet of the women

The only external flash system that I have right now is the R1C1 which has the SU-800 speedlight commander and off camera flash units SB-R200.

OK.

I am not wanting to argue, but merely point out facts.

You stated that the flash was mounted on the camera, so the Flash's Working Distance is also the same as the Shooting Distance.

If you say you were at 3ft then you were at 3ft: but shooting at a distance of 3ft, then the HORIZONTAL Field of View at the Plane of Sharp Focus with a70mm lens mounted on an APS-C Nikon camera will be about 10 inches - and those two Ladies are wider than 5 inches, each.


***

. . . and that may explain how there was very little shadow development or flash intensity.

No it doesn't.

The closer the Wording Distance, the MORE likely that the flash will have an effect because the flash has more power.

WW

[AB26]

Here's one where I probably should have used fill flash but didn't and glad I didn't as it would have probably rendered the diners as darkened shadows.



f/3.2, 1/100 sec, ISO 6400, 40mm, handheld, 7:14pm, Oct.

John,

This image is a perfect candidate for “dragging the shutter’.
If your camera was in full Manual mode you could have kept the settings as they are (and now I am thumb sucking) with flash set to eg. 1/128 of full strength at the ISO you were using. It would have kept the mood but added a tad of fill for the subjects in the foreground. Rendering your foreground subjects as main subjects in the image.

Remember you can control the ‘power of exposure” of flash by changing flash output, distance to subject, aperture and ISO. Shutter speed (below max sync speed) will have no effect.

See how far in the dark your flash can reach by using full power at ISO 6400. I’ll bet it is more than 12’.

[rpcrowe]

Richard, and I thought I was stupid for not being able to master bounce flash photography. With my SB80 I only have two options, Auto or Manual, no TTL.

Have you ever tried bouncing a flash off a red wall?

Andre...

Auto should work bouncing flash. I used to bounce my Vivitar 285 and 283 flash units in film days...

No, I never tied bouncing flash off a red wall, However, my office is painted a beige color, including the ceiling. Unless I include a white balance target in my shooting, the colors really look muddy and terrible.

Why do I shoot in my office? Often one or more of my dogs are doing something that I would like to record...



Regarding the street scene in China, this was an off-the-cuff series of shots and I included it to show that flash is does not always look natural. However, there was no way with a Canon 30D with which I was shooting at the time, that I could have boosted the ISO to get a good available light image. I was using ISO 800 as it was.

There are times in which I would not use flash like in shooting along the length of this corridor in Istanbul's Grand Bazaar. Shooting at ISO 640 (with my Canon 7D, which has better low light performance than my older 30D), I was able to get an exposure of 1/125 second (which stopped any motion) at f/5.6 which at 23mm on a 1.6x crop camera provided the DOF necessary for the shot...

[Shadowman]

OK.

I am not wanting to argue, but merely point out facts.

You stated that the flash was mounted on the camera, so the Flash's Working Distance is also the same as the Shooting Distance.

If you say you were at 3ft then you were at 3ft: but shooting at a distance of 3ft, then the HORIZONTAL Field of View at the Plane of Sharp Focus with a70mm lens mounted on an APS-C Nikon camera will be about 10 inches - and those two Ladies are wider than 5 inches, each.


***




No it doesn't.

The closer the Wording Distance, the MORE likely that the flash will have an effect because the flash has more power.

WW

William,

I wasn't arguing about distance to subject, I was merely providing known variables to your analysis.

[William W]

OK. I don't understand how that distance can be so and I will leave that part of the conversation there.

***

On another point: I think that the whole thread/discussion is very useful.

WW

[Shadowman]

OK. I don't understand how that distance can be so and I will leave that part of the conversation there.

***

On another point: I think that the whole thread/discussion is very useful.

WW

William,

This thread has been a hands on/work as you go tutorial for me. I appreciate yours and everyone else's input and hope the conversation will continue.

Thanks