Bus f-Stop

[bryanpj]

Hi Everyone

I work for a bus company, usually doing graphic design, but recently Ive started doing their photography too. On Thursday I have to take pictures of three of their new buses, for catalogues and general promotion. I'm worried as I haven't done this type of photography before and they seem to have high expectations.

I know it's a bit specific, but would anyone have experience taking pictures of vehicles, and have any advice to give?

[Donald]

What will you be shooting with? First thing that come to mind is to go sort-of wide angle (say 24-30mm) on a 1.6 crop factor body. Get down low. Go for the three-quarter shot. Will help to emphasise power, dynamism, sleekness.

But whatever shots you do go for - DON'T FORGET THE BACKGROUND. Even the best of set-ups for shots of the buses will be ruined if you have trees or telegraph poles, etc sticking out of the roof. Try and get a featureless background, or one that shows off the buses (e.g. belting along the motorway). But definitely not standing in the garage with all the rubbish lying around.

[Mike Buckley]

Also be prepared to use a polarizer filter if the lighting situation imposed upon you creates glare.

Google photos of buses to get ideas.

[Geoff F]

Yes, lighting problems were my first thoughts.

New shiny vehicles often create areas of over exposure and the alternative of spot metering on them will also make the shadows very dark.

In my experience, a polarizer often doesn't help in this sort of scene. In which case the only option is to shoot in light shadow, or a slightly overcast day.

I had this problem recently when photographing my vehicle for a sales shot. Even in shadow, I was getting an over exposed background, which was still in sunshine.

My only option was to drive around until I found a suitable location!

[Mike Buckley]

Geoff,

You're probably aware that the polarizer isn't intended to help with exposure. It will only help with reducing or eliminating the glare and reflection on the paint and windows. Even a slightly overcast day will produce glare and reflection on those materials. I mention this just in case Bryan isn't aware.

[Carl in Louisiana]

Try Shooting a little before sunrise or a little after sunset. Also it would help if you could, or get someone else, to position the bus where is has the least amount of glare or reflection. Doing so may require a slower SS, if so use a tripod. To be considered along with the above info. Another thought would be at night using a flashlight know as "Light painting".

[Manfred M]

My initial thought is that if you feel that you are out of your comfort zone in photographing these new buses, you should tell your employer. Suggest that they hire a pro with the knowledge and experience to do this.

There is no use suggesting that you can do something that is outside of you skill level.

[William W]

. . . On Thursday I have to take pictures of three of their new buses, for catalogues and general promotion. I'm worried as I haven't done this type of photography before and they seem to have high expectations. I know it's a bit specific, but would anyone have experience taking pictures of vehicles, and have any advice to give?

1. Do you have a studio (or can make space for one) large enough to house the bus?
2. Do not have any lighting equipment?
3. Have you experience in using studio lighting equipment?
4. What camera and lenses are you using?

WW

[Mike Buckley]

Bryan,

You didn't ask for ideas about how to handle anything other than the photography, but it might be helpful for you to know that my initial reaction to your post was in the same realm as Manfred's suggestion. If I were on top of my game and in your situation, I would assess the quality of all existing images your company already is using in its promotional materials. If your company has no such materials, management probably doesn't understand the requirements, skill, and time required to make effective photos; few people not steeped in photography do. If your company does have such materials, someone in management might have been around when they were made and has a reasonable understanding.

Regardless, I would approach management on the basis that I would give it my best shot with the understanding that it would be my first attempt. The company could certainly save cash out of pocket if your attempt meets the company's needs and that is probably management's primary motivation to use you. However, it would serve you and them well to be prepared that if your attempt doesn't meet their needs, they should have a Plan B ready that involves hiring an experienced pro.

[tclune]

I rather suspect that it wouldn't add a lot of time to any schedule if the OP just went ahead and tried his hand at taking the shots. If he and/or management feel that the photos are not up to snuff, a pro could be lined up then. It may be reasonable to set expectations beforehand, but I'm not sure that passing on the assignment before any photos have been taken would be the right thing here (maybe, maybe not. Employers vary a lot.) But this doesn't seem like, say, a wedding that can't be repeated if the photos don't measure up. Or so ISTM.

[Jim35010]

Bryan, you have received some good advise above.... But having retired from a company that wanted to keep everything inhouse, including the learning curve on anything they wanted to accomplish... I would suggest simply going out and taking snapshots.... After you see what they want then move into the more technical aspects. You can get ideas on all kinds of composition, but the technical stuff you will have to research, practice, and get input from anyone you respect in this field. Donald, Manfred, and Mike are examples of the type folks that can help you and there are lots of pros willing to share. If you feel it is over your head, I wouldn't hesitate to pass the buck to someone more experienced. Your comfort level has as much to do with this as anything...
Jim

[bryanpj]

Thank you sir for the tips, I'll be shooting with a full frame camera, a Canon 5d mkII. I did a bit of research, and decided upon the least offensive spot in the least offensive bus depot, but it's far from ideal. Unfortunately i have to take the shots in one of the company's locations.

[bryanpj]

Dear Everyone

Thank you so much for your feedback. (I can't seem to reply to each comment individually).
My camera is a canon 5d mkii, and the only suitable lens will be my 24-105mm.

Some very useful information. Unfortunately I haven't invested in a polarizer filter yet (and it would take about a year to get it ordered from work!). My shoot has to be from 10am - 1pm, but night painting is a nice idea for future. (I'll bring a tripod nevertheless)

I have plenty of experience photographing events etc, so I have a decent level of knowledge, but certainly I do feel a little under pressure to deliver on this occasion, so I think a quick email, as advised saying that this is a first attempt at a difficult assignment may serve me well. The company (like many these days) would rather not get in the pro's unless it's absolutely necessary. (there are existing photographs, used in catalogues etc, but of very dubious quality) As regards lighting, I did think about it, and enquired about hiring lights for the day, but again the cost of the lighting I'd need was excessive. Studio type conditions would certainly be desirable (though my experience is limited in studio photography) but again, it's difficult to find a place big enough for three buses alongside eachother. I will certainly try to frame them to minimize background visual debris.

I am hoping for a somewhat overcast day, (thankfully a common occurrence in ireland), as I did foresee glare as one of the biggest obstacles.

Once again, thanks so much for your assistance, what a great facility CIC is!

I'd say I'll add an image or two to the thread when I'm done...but as you've probably picked up, I don't exactly have a good feeling about this one, so will see....wish me luck!

Best
Bryan

[William W]

Thanks for answering. So you will be shooting outside? That was implied, but not exactly clear.

On the matter of communications to the company and the pressure on you to deliver: if I were you I would put it I writing to your manager that, taking this task very seriously you have undertaken vast research and as a result of that research you then outline the restraints (one by one) that the company is placing upon this shoot which will restrict the ability to make for a best quality outcome.

One point to consider is, the Manager / Owners might not appreciate the nuances of high quality photographic images for advertising and promotion and it is possible that they are basing their choices (no offense) because you have an "High Quality Camera" and therefore the "shots must be good". That works right up until the moment someone else (usually an outsider) whom they take notice of, makes a comment on the brochure . . .

***

That said:

I would ensure I took the one “standard safe shot” and then set about to be “creative” with detailed shots of certain areas of the bus and also using (sparingly) wide angle lenses and unusual camera viewpoints. I will dwell on getting a “standard safe shot” - that should be your first aim.

Pray for a mildly overcast day: as mentioned that will make the exposure easier for you and eliminate the multiple issues caused by direct sun illuminating only PART OF the vehicle.

The Background is very important. So re-look at the options that you have and also the way you can park the bus. Park the bus in front of trees or another suitably darker and colour contrasting background, but ensure the bus is a good distance from that background.

I would think of it like a portrait shot, having the bus’s front face the camera but on an angle – so you will need to have enough DoF to go down the line of the side of the bus.

If you are restricted to shooting on a particular day and that is SUNNY DAY then you will likely have to deal with direct sun on the bus which means that the you might consider using HRDI (HIGH DYNAMIC RANGE IMAGING) to ensure that the SHADOW SIDE is exposed adequately to imitate warm “all around” lighting.

If you need to shoot o a sunny day use the morning so you can place the bus in the direction of the light that you want. Midday would be more difficult. Afternoon usually means dirtier air.

A quick comment on the lens’s FL - I would not go wider than about 50mm on you 5D and I would be very careful not to frame too close to the bus if you use any Lens which is even slightly wider than a Standard Lens. I would typically use a 50~100mm lens on FF. Again this might be I possible for you if you do not have enough space to get back to an adequate shooting distance to frame the bus.

***



This is taken with a 100m lens on a 5D. The camera is at a normal hand holding elevation about 5ft 9inches. It is about two hours after sunrise, in Autumn and it is made with one exposure and the shadow areas were addressed in Post Production. I did not have a Circular Polarizing Filter on the lens for this shot, but I did have one in the bag in case I required it. I also recommend that you have one to use if needed.

Note that the truck does not appear overly ‘long’ and that is a function of:

1. Viewpoint of the camera, that is to say, the SHOOTING DISTANCE (and then choosing the l00mm lens to fill the frame)
2. The angle that the truck is to the camera.

If one of the elements you want to draw attention to, is the length of the bus, then you can set the bus at a slightly flatter angle (i.e. closer to 90° lengthways across the lens’s axis) and/or you can move closer to change the PERSPECTIVE (and obviously then use a shorter FL lens and still fill the frame).

***

After you have the standard safe shot in the bank:

As well as some “creative” shots of the interesting small details of the bus and experimenting with other Camera Viewpoints and also W/A lenses ; it would be a good idea to take time to get some shots of then bus travelling – and in doing that a few panning shots would be a good goal to have.

Obviously you might not be able to achieve much or even any of these basic criteria but this and other commentaries might serve you as a basis for the outline of your formal communication with your company.

Good luck.

WW

[shreds]

First off, good luck Bryan.

This is becoming a common theme here.

Company bosses who don't have a clue, thinking they can save a few Euros by getting an employee with a good camera to shoot for them. It is probably a reflection on the general malaise in the publics' view of photography that 'anyone can do it'.

Don't get me wrong Bryan, this is not a criticism of you, it is of those who place very high expectations at your door and because you are an employee, you have to deliver. No pressure then!

Its a shame it has to be on company premises, because my first thought was an aircraft hanger with an appropriate lighting rig...but I guess the purse strings are firmly shut on such creative and ideal solutions.

Oh and is 24mm wide enough for close up shots?

Anyway good luck with whatever happens.

Ian

[Andrew1]

I have to agree with comments above. I do see a problem here in that your rep as a graphic designer can be negatively effected by adding an aspect to an assignment you are not comfortable with nor prepared for. I don't think those who asked for this are very knowledgeable about any aspect of the production work. It must all be the same, right? If for some reason they don't like your photos then the performance results of the work you are employed for will suffer as will your reputation. I think someone is trying to gain some brownie points by keeping costs down and then loading the risk onto someone else. You. Put your concerns in writing to whoever assigned the task to you staying positive but indicating you are more than willing to go ahead with the job but feel your results will possibly not be up to expectations. That your company deserves better than what you feel you can provide. It might even be beneficial to attach a couple of examples so take a few shots of their existing products and include them. Do as best you can. You may find they are perfectly acceptable for the publication for the person but at the least you've made your capabilities known and transferred the risk back to where it belongs. It might no do any good but someone will get the message. To really get their attention, ask what the budget is for the job. Suggest that the strobes, reflectors, backgrounds, assistants, etc you will need can be expensive. NEVER sign away your ownership rights. I don't know what the specifics are in Ireland but I can almost bet that your bosses think they will own the photo if they paid you an hourly amount to do that as part of your job. And they may, so check. You don't mention if you are a salaried employee or a contractor. If a contractor and this is outside of the scope of your job should you inquire as to what you will be paid for the job?

If in the end you do find you feel you have no choice and are going to take the photos there are some basics to cover and again, do the best you can.. "New bus stops in one of the company's locations". What does that mean? It suggests to me this is an indoor shot in a building they are made in. Yes or no, staging the shot and your lighting needs to be checked out ahead of time and preparations to illuminate or possible move the structures dealt with. Again stress the $$$$$ in writing.

First step is to get the concept in your mind. Look here http://www.gettyimages.ca/creative/b...p-stock-photos for some ideas. You may find you have some needs that have to be pushed back up the ladder. Everything in writing. Perhaps along the way you can get them to realize utilizing a professional is a better choice and it would be more beneficial to the company if you were to coordinate (and learn a bunch) from a professional.

In the end though, I would urge you to decline. A short term disappointment for someone else is certainly better than the potential long term effects of poor results on your project.

[rpcrowe]

These images may (or may not) provide you some ideas of how and where to shoot. Some of the shots are decent, some terrible but, ideas (pro or con) can be gleaned from the grouping...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Bus+...w=1280&bih=629

Your 5Diii and 24-105mm lens should be quite sufficient. I would try to stay away from the widest side of the focal range (to avoid the distortion when shooting at a minimum distance) and shoot where you have enough space to back up and shoot with a longer focal length. While not "absolutely" necessary, using a steady tripod would certainly give you an advantage in image quality...

Where you shoot would definitely depend on what type of buses your company offers and what the end use of the images might be. They might want a nice looking environmental portrait of the buses or they might want a straight I.D. coverage, sides, front and back. Of course, there is the ever present possibility of them not having the foggiest idea of what they want. "Just shoot it and we'll tell you if we want it or not." is not a totally abnormal expectation for the in-house photographer to surmount...

If you notice, several images in the above collection have had the background removed. That is certainly an easy way to shoot because you don't have to worry about a background that interferes with your bus. OTOH, that type of image (IMO) is pretty sterile and uninteresting.

If your company produces school buses, scout out locations that might include a nice looking school as a background. If the company produces buses for travel (like the over-the-road Grayhound or Casino buses) shooting in a good looking road area might be appropriate. If your company does city type buses, scout out areas which might work with urban backgrounds. Power lines, etc. can be a problem....

One of your problems might be to find areas to shoot in which passing vehicles and walking people did not compromise your shot. Except for Church bus images, early Sunday mornings are the time I'd want to shoot...

If your company wants people included in the shot, that poses some additional and possible insurmountable problems without a budget with which to hire models....

I would shoot in shutter speed priority and use auto exposure bracketing. That would ensure that you get at least one optimum exposure and you never know, an HDR image might impress the company...

Planning might be more difficult than the actual shooting. We used to say in the Navy that Prior Planning Prevents Pretty Poor Performance (actually we used a "P" term a bit stronger than Pretty).

Often, the company (or those responsible) will not appropriate enough time or resources for the shot when an in-house person is doing the shooting. If they hired an outside professional, they might bend over backwards to satisfy his/her needs. Yet, they will expect the same quality from the in-house shooter that they would get from the outside pro....

I think that some constructive dialog might be in order regarding the compromise between their expectations and your shooting needs....

Here is another thought: doing an artistic rendition with a program like Corel Paint or Topaz Adjust might impress your boses but, talk to them about that before you do it...

[William W]

. . . "New bus stops in one of the company's locations". What does that mean? It suggests to me this is an indoor shot in a building they are made in. . . .

and

I did a bit of research, and decided upon the least offensive spot in the least offensive bus depot, but it's far from ideal. Unfortunately i have to take the shots in one of the company's locations.

I was not clear at all on this point.
Most of the area of "Bus Depots" here are out in the open air, hence I concluded the shot is to be outside: please note that my commentary #14, was based on that, as a fact

***

it's difficult to find a place big enough for three buses alongside each other.

This is a new aspect (to me).
I did not understand the Opening Post as meaning the shoot required all three busses in one shot.
This complicates the job for two main reasons:

1. (more) space required
2. shadows from one bus to another

WW

[drjuice]

Hi, Bruce,

Good luck on your buses! The one thing I'd never thought of when I started photographing old (1946-1965) cars that are featured in our local celebration of US 66 every September is how bad chrome looks with my mug and camera reflected in the chrome. Richard mentioned this in his list, and Bill pretty well succeeded in not letting it spoil his truck picture, but then I also noticed that he did have a problem with the lettering on the side of the truck's dumper. So, I'd probably get in the habit of taking a few pictures to sort of get in the mood by which time I usually succeed in avoiding my own image in the pictures.

Good luck with your new job jar!

virginia

[bryanpj]

Dear All
Thanks for your additional comments, Just to let you know, the shoot went well last week. It was quite sunny, which was a tough break, but there was a bit of cloud from time to time, so I choose my moments. I certainly gained some useful insights from your responses. I concentrated for the most part on the "standard" shots, using 50-100m fl, with enough dof to get the sides of the buses also. I tried to minimise the background obstacles, but still have some photoshopping to do. The HDR idea worked very well, so the dark shadows from the sun won't be such a problem.

I informed management at my company of the difficulties I was facing with this shoot, re budget, setting and experience, so at least I covered myself before setting out.
I am satisfied that I have some photos we can use, so that is as much as I was hoping for on this first attempt.

Once again, thanks for all the effort you put in, in responding to my request.
Best Regards
Br