Help with artistic vision.

[jimalexander]

Hello everyone!

I'm looking for some artistic guidance. I'm starting to get a handle on how to control RAW editing and photoshop, but what I am struggling with is the artistic side of it all.

I am especially interested in how some photographers and artists choose to enhance the colors and tones in their images to bring out the mood and style they want in their images. One of the areas I studied that helped me a lot was theatrical stage lighting and the connection between color and mood.

I realize that I am at a point where more technical abilities with the software isn't going to make better pictures, I need to know more about the artistic vision that directs those changes.

One that I liked, Pete Myers (http://www.petemyers.com/), is typical of what I have been interested in lately. I'm using his web site rather than listing a particular image because he has several portfolios on his site (sorry, I know that is making it a little time consuming to go there and look). Like many artists, he doesn't want to give away his artistic approach as he talks about the technical processing steps he used (can't blame him, I suppose).

I had some art classes in college in color theory and composition but I didn't do a lot of art since PR/music were already my major/minor.

So, if anyone knows where I can find more internet resources relating to more the artistic elements, I would be grateful! Going to college again is not possible owing to my day job. Al$o, free re$ource$ are e$pecially u$eful $ince money i$ tight.

Thanks to everyone,

Jim

[purplehaze]

Hi Jim,

I know you were asking for Internet resources, but your question reminded me of a book I picked up a couple of years ago that should be available at your local library as it is or has been required reading in some design schools. It is A Primer of Visual Literacy by Donis A. Dondis. The text is rather dry, but really quite informative, and I think I will have to tackle it again, in small doses. It contains useful exercises such as the following, in the chapter on the dynamics of contrast:
1) Make a photograph or find examples of both (1) a balanced, harmonious and (2) an asymmetrical, contrasting visual statement. Analyze and compare the effect of each and their ability to convey information and mood.
2) Choose two opposite conceptual ideas (love-hate, war-peace, city-country, organized-confused). In a square, make a collage which represents the contrast of ideas by using visual techniques to reinforce the meaning of the visuals used.
3) Make a collage or photograph in which unlike visual materials are juxtaposed so as to heighten or sharpen the effect of the message.
4) Look for an example of design or graphics where surprise in the juxtaposition of unexpected visual information dramatizes the artist's underlying intention.

I do think the book would make for an excellent self-directed course on the grammar and syntax of visual language if you take it slowly and methodically and apply the principles as you go along. I think I should give it a go myself rather than do as I have been doing lately, and just aimlessly stabbing in the dark. ;-)

[IzzieK]

I am not an expert, but in this community, there are many who can and may be able to help you a lot if you show an example of your own shot. Critiques will not hurt your ego even if they are harsh and very useful to your improvement as a photographer. And welcome to this forum. We look forward to what you can show us.

[chauncey]

Grab a cuppa , it's an hour long, an watch this video on the subject...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpHMuK7Htic
It's not the old-school method taught in all the art classes but relies more on "what caught your eye".

[FrankMi]

Welcome to CiC Jim!

From what you describe, you may already have a handle on much of what you are seeking to improve. As Isabel points out, one of the best places to start is to post some images you have taken and ask pointed questions on how the images can be improved from an artistic perspective. That will help us to focus in your area of interest.

The question of how to best use this forum to get the answers you seek has been asked more than once so I would point you to a message I posted a while back that might help. Please take a look HERE and see if you think you might benefit from these comments?

[Manfred M]

I think your have gotten some very good advice already. Let me add my own thoughts on some possible direction for you to take to move forward in developing your skills.

I think you have taken the first steps in the right direction; you are looking at the work of others whose work that you like and trying to figure out how they do things. Trying to copy the style of photographers that you like and to figure out how they got the images that they did is really how a lot of us started out.

The first thing to remember is that you need something good out of the camera before you even consider the post-processing work. You can't create a great image from a mediocre capture; this means you have to get things right compositionally and you have to get things right from a lighting standpont. You have to understand both to create the underlying material that turns into a great image.

If you are looking at the type of work that you show us in the link, then start shooting at "magic hour"; the time just after sunrise and just before sunset when the lighting is working in your favour. Make sure you take care of the foreground, middle ground and background of the image. "Work the scene"; don't expect to get things right in one single shot; so move around and keep working the scene to give yourself a good selection of raw material to work with. Invest in a good tripod; that will let you shoot at appropriately low ISO values and apertures to get the depth of field you will need in the low light situations of magic hour. I will often bracket my shots so that I can blend different parts of an image together in post. Shooting with a tripod also does one other thing for you; it allows you to take your time setting up the composition and inspect for issues, especially at the edge of the image. It's a great learning tool in addition to being a great photographic tool.

I find I often require more than one trip to the same location to get the shots that I want. I prefer to scout my locations (camera in hand) and then will return when the conditions are right for the capture. I get better shots on return visits because I have worked out the focal lengths, camera angles, etc that I like.

Post processing is also very important; and developing good post skills takes a long time. I pretty well do all my post work in Photoshop. This tool has a very long learning curve and has one very significant advantage over many competing products; it supports layers, layer masks and adjustment layers as well as a whole host of blending modes. These allow me to work in a non-destructinve way, and the layers and layer order really documents how I arrived at the final image. I can go back and reverse-engineer how I achieved specific effects just by reviewing how I did things using non-destructive technique. I can and do revisit previously worked images and update them.

Above all; practice, practice and more practice. Eventually you will figure out what your style is and you will move in a direction that is not just trying to emulate other photographer's works.

I always remember two quotes from two famous photographers (both were in fact photojournalists) as my "guiding principles".

The first one you see in my tag-line, from Henri Cartier-Bresson; "Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst". A number of people have pointed out that he was shooting film and that in the digital age, perhaps your first 100,000 images are your worst.

The second comes from Robert Capa who said "if your image isn't good enough, you're not close enough".

One other thought; when I shoot, I don't just think about the image I am taking; I am already considering how I will handle it in post processing. I will usually try to take shots in both portrait and landscape mode. I also will shoot with cropping to print sizes in mind, so I will shoot with "head room" to allow for cropping to the appropriate ratio in post.

[RustBeltRaw]

Zack Arias's Dedpxl assignments may be of interest. He's focusing mainly on improving and broadening how people see, rather than the technical stuff. The latter, one can learn from forums and manuals. The former requires practice. One assignment per month, with a Flickr group for uploads and critique. I'm planning to follow the assignments, along with a small group of other Detroit photographers. Should be an interesting ride.

[jimalexander]

Thank all of you for your responses.

I glanced at Dondis' visual literacy on google books, and I like what I was able to see. I'll be ordering it soon, thanks for the recommendation purplehaze.

Here are a couple of photos I recently took. Two things I am working on most right now are dramatic portraits (mostly of my own kids) and landscapes of places I travel to on my day job trips.

I am a mediocre photoshop user, and lately I've been focusing on doing a better job in camera. Once in photoshop I adjust my levels and curves, globally first then with a mask to single out anything that pops out to me as needing adjustment. Then I do the same thing with the color balance. I often saturate the subject areas then desaturate anything I want to avoid attention. Sometimes I sharpen a little before I'm done. Mainly at this stage of my abilities I'm just trying to make the picture look like my eye saw it rather than how my camera recorded it.

When I'm done, though, I feel like I'm missing something- I wouldn't pay money for a print of it. As powerful as photoshop is, I just don't yet have the artistic sense to make the most of it!

[jimalexander]

Technical difficulties with photo uploads, please stand by...

[jimalexander]

Here are a couple of landscapes...

The sunset in the snow isn't a great pic, but it was a guinea pig for some photoshop filters I was trying out (topaz adjust). I didn't like any of them (or just don't know how to use them either). I wound up using an HDR setting and dialing its intensity down. Problem I see here as I'm trying out the software is I could easily begin to let the computer make decisions for me instead of using it properly. I knew I wanted to increase the colors of the sunset, but the filter really darkened the snow. Even though I didn't use the filter at full power and then went back into photoshop and dodged the snow some more, it still looked rather flat and dull.

[jimalexander]

and here are a couple of portraits...

Sorry, I'm still figuring out how to use the forum

Thanks to all for all the help.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Zack Arias's Dedpxl assignments may be of interest. He's focusing mainly on improving and broadening how people see, rather than the technical stuff. The latter, one can learn from forums and manuals. The former requires practice. ..................................

I like and have followed this advice.

If it's "art", then, it's more of "seeing".

[purplehaze]

Glad you like the look of the book, Jim, and I thank you for reminding me of it. You have some nice shots there. I would prefer to have larger, higher resolution versions to look at, but from what I can see, you have an eye, a sense of composition, a willingness to explore different camera angles, and a taste for high colour and tonal contrast, which is to say you already have some of the fundamentals and a direction. I particularly like the reflection portrait, though I feel her head needs a bit more room and I think I might have put her whole body on more of an angle across the frame, for more dynamism. Maybe it would work, maybe not. Her flesh is perhaps too orange for my taste but I love the contrast of warm and cool tones. Look forward to seeing more!

[jimalexander]

This weekend I will figure out how to get higher res pictures on the site. I saw something in the FAQ about a 700 wide pixel limitation, but I probably missed something and need to look at it again.

I started over in photoshop with the reflection picture 2 or 3 times, it has kicked my butt! The midtone adjustments i would usually do caused the reflection to become less clear and the dirt/leaves under the water to become more obvious. I'll try again, and expirement with removing the color cast and see what it does. What it has that I liked with the scene is several contrasts (rough background under the water vs smooth reflected sky, warm vs cool hues, and the plaid standing out (a bit too much, maybe)

thanks for the tips

PS - got some pictures in the archive from a trip to Toronto recently, almost didn't get them. It was my first time across the border and the border guards weren't impressed with my naivety

[RichardTaylor]

Just a tip Jim re image #3 in Post #10

When you using filters like Topaz do it on a new layer. After exiting the filter you then have the option of masking the areas (via a layer mask), like the snow and water, or adjusting the opacity of the layer etc.

As a hobbyst, with an ocassional "client", I have no compunction about using any availabe tools to achieve the results I want. I don't chase having a "style" however I have been told by racing car drivers "your pictures are different" (I shoot a lot of motor sport) when they place orders.

I agree with Janis's comment about having the eye and a sense of composition.

[purplehaze]

This weekend I will figure out how to get higher res pictures on the site.

Actually, most of them are fine. It was just the boat picture that looked kind of low-res to me.

I started over in photoshop with the reflection picture 2 or 3 times, it has kicked my butt! The midtone adjustments i would usually do caused the reflection to become less clear and the dirt/leaves under the water to become more obvious. I'll try again, and expirement with removing the color cast and see what it does. What it has that I liked with the scene is several contrasts (rough background under the water vs smooth reflected sky, warm vs cool hues, and the plaid standing out (a bit too much, maybe)

If it were mine, I would just do selective adjustments on her skin; I like the orange tones elsewhere in the scene as they are.

PS - got some pictures in the archive from a trip to Toronto recently, almost didn't get them. It was my first time across the border and the border guards weren't impressed with my naivety

I'm probably at least as far from Toronto as you are, but do share! Toronto is a great city, in spite of its mayor.

[nimitzbenedicto]

Hi Jim,

My humble CnC: Despite your assertion you're a newbie in post-processing/editing, viewing your images, it seems you are an expert. They look very shiny/glossy and technically "correct".

However, when it comes to your "help with artistic vision", none of them seems "artistic".

For instance, if you go thru the fantastic images of Daisy Mae, technically, they may fall short of the standards of our master technicians here.

However, her images are pleasing to look at and it sort of fires up the viewer's imagination.

I believe you are technically very proficient and as you mentioned, perhaps, it's the "artistic" side you really have to focus on now. Try youtube for some great tutorials.

Wishing you success in your quest.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anXzfP8qA9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EZZ-LH1dlU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8UffZAXcdQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqmEVv9nH2M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwicQal3hgA

[Manfred M]

Jim: A few thoughts for you.

1. Getting images onto this site; most of us use a third party picture service and link to the images there. There are quite a few SmugMug users and I use Flickr. Links to your images on these sites are embedded in the threads you post.

2. The most important thing you as a photographer needs to do is to "get it right" in camera; so far as it is possible. Photoshop is a very powerful tool, but not having to use it to do the heavy lifing; i.e. get the composition and exposure right; then you can use Photoshop to "unlock" what you have captured.

3. Based on the limited comments you've made on some of your postings; you are applying global changes to your images and this is having undesirable side effect. You can certainly work around these; but you have to use layers, layer masks, adjustment layers, blending modes and be competent in making selections to do so. Sometimes a single image will not work and shooting with a tripod and blending bracketed images will often be one way to work in the effects.

One has to be rather careful doing these because too heavy a hand will result in unrealistic looking images.

When I look at your images, they generally show promise, but others you miss I do question some of your compositional choices (I wasn't there, so can't tell why you made them).

I suspect that the underlying issue could be summed up by the quote below, from Henri-Cartier Bresson. Composition, technical aspects of camera craft and post-processing take a long time to perfect.

[jimalexander]

nimitzbenedicto,
thanks for the links. I've started looking into them, and they are very interesting. I've seen some of the recommended links on youtube's sidebar I want to look at too. I've got plenty of homework to do!

GrumpyDiver,
Thanks for the assessment, very much. I'm interested in your opinion, as you have said you see some potential, what are some of the things you would do if you were going to work with these images yourself? How would you approach it? It sounds like you may have been in this stage yourself, and I would like very much to know where you went from there.

Thanks for your help,

Jim

[Manfred M]

GrumpyDiver,
Thanks for the assessment, very much. I'm interested in your opinion, as you have said you see some potential, what are some of the things you would do if you were going to work with these images yourself? How would you approach it? It sounds like you may have been in this stage yourself, and I would like very much to know where you went from there.

Thanks for your help,

Jim

Jim - first comment is a paraphrase from Robert Capa - "if your image is not good enough, you're not close enough". This is the one thing I always have to pay attention to.

The other issue is lighting and working with that to bring out your images. Get the composition right, get the lighting right and then get them to pop in post.

That being said, I still fight with these issues to. Once I identify something, I will "work a scene" until I have enough material to work with, and frankly, I generally am happy with 1% - 5% of my shots. Before I start shooting, I have a general idea of what I want the final image to look like and will be shooting with a post-processing plan in mind.

Looking at your images:

1. The sunset - I would have probably framed that in landscape format rather than portrait format. The second issue is that there are lots of sunset shots out there, and most are nothing special. Unless there is something unusual and different, I tend to avoid them myself.

2. The boat - I like this shot; but the crop is a bit tight and the background; the water and things in the water distract and take away from the subject; so think about cropping that out.

3. Street scene with snow at sunset - tough shot to pull off as snow in the shade tends to look blue; and with the warm sky from sunset, this is even tougher to pull off. I would be tempted to treat this as a photocomposite and do the snow apart from the sky (and sky reflections in the water) to see how that would work. Clone out the street light on the left for sure. I think that the ditch(?) with the water might work better if it were off-centre a bit.

On the other hand; minor tweaks and leave it with the funky colours.

4. Reflection of girl with the leaves - I find the shot much too orange and cropped a bit too tight. You are fighting specular highlights in the water; a polarizer and trying it at various angles might work. I'd almost like to see how this works in landscape mode; with more water on the right; the reflection isn't obvious on first glance and more water camera right might work better for you.

5. Boy in snow - I can't decide if I like or dislike this shot. I tend to like pictures of children shot at a shallower angle (I tend not to like looking down on children at such a steep angle and prefer to be cloere to eye level). I've clean up the things in the snow near the ladder.

6. Boy looking at window - I like this shot; I'd crop the top a bit; while you need a bit of headroom, I think there is too much. The Dutch tilt is a good call iin this shot. I'd don't love the large dark area at the bottom left.

7. Boy on floor with bowls - Dramatic lighting ratio, not usually seen in the picture of a child. I think this could be quite effective had it been lit differently; the helmet blends into the background (rim light would bring that out) and a touch of fill light from camera left might soften the shadows a bit. I'd be tempted to trim the headroom a touch and would clone out the yellow object on the edge of the frame, camera right.

8. Child on couch(?). I'd do a square crop on this image and get rid of a lot of the material on the left and right, that don't add to the image. Again, like the previous shot there is nothing to separate the child from the background, a rim light would help here too.