Learning Landscapes - Sunlit Trees

[Brownbear]

Hi Mike,

No worries. I had a challenging time phrasing my thoughts and questions in a clear manner, and I have no doubt that answering my post was far more challenging than writing it.

Thank you. Appreciated, as always.

Sorry, Christina, but I really screwed up a lot in my previous post and had to edit much of it after I initially posted it. Apologies! Please take the time to read that post again to ensure that you've read the latest version. I promise not to touch it again.

[Stagecoach]

With respect to Exposure compensation in manual mode, I just tried it on a white cup filling the frame (twice to confirm), and even though the dial in the view finder shows a negative exposure when you change the aperture or the shutter speed to zero the exposure from that point, it results in a brighter image with the histogram pushed to the right. I cannot explain why but the histogram confirms this, ie; it is moved over to the right. Nevertheless I will stop using it as I can see it is not needed, or recommended.

Hi Christina,

This reply is with specific reference to the statement above and your words "" I cannot explain why "". It is obvious that you still have an unanswered question or concern about something that is happening regarding metering.

The comment you have made regarding the concern is a bit ambiguous because you have not mentioned whether you are dialling in + or - values but here's an explanation that may help. It makes the assumption that you are using a fixed ISO and maintaining the camera pointed at the same view (metered area) lighting condition.

So, with respect to 'Exposure compensation' I will cover what happens when using 'Aperture Priority' and then 'Manual' with both examples assuming that you wish the histogram to be moved to the right;

a) APERTURE PRIORITY - using EC

The camera will meter the view and you will determine if you are happy with the cameras decision for exposure by checking the histogram. You then decide that you wish to increase the exposure to move the histogram to the right.

You dial in +1EV and the camera adjusts the speed automatically (decreases it) and at the same time you can see in the viewfinder the exposure meter indicates (indicator moves 1 stop to the + side) that the camera will expose 1 stop greater than what its metering system considered best.

The histogram will have moved to the right.

b) MANUAL MODE - using EC

You will adjust the speed to centre the meter and with the meter centred this corresponds to what the camera thinks is best exposure for the view. (the same exposure as if in Aperture priority with no EC)

You will determine if you are happy with the cameras decision for exposure by checking the histogram. You then decide that you wish to increase the exposure to move the histogram to the right.

You then dial in +1EV and as you do this the viewfinder exposure meter moves to +1 on the scale, the camera settings are not altered.

On removing your finger from the EC button the exposure meter then moves to -1. This -1 meter indication is showing that if an image was taken at the settings that have not yet been changed the exposure would be -1 stop lower than your required (dialled in) +1 stop.

You then manually adjust speed (decrease it) to bring the meter from the - (negative) side to the centre position that gives you an image that is exposed +1 stop above what the camera metering system considered best.

The histogram will have moved to the right.

I'm not suggesting Christina that you should use this method in Manual mode but just trying to get to the bottom of what this query is.

Grahame

[Mike Buckley]

I wonder if it is helpful to point out that Grahame's explanation yesterday of using exposure compensation while in manual mode, his explanation just now, Nikon's explanation in the manual cited by Christina, and the magazine's explanation also cited by Christina are consistent. They can't all be wrong. (Even so, if there was any doubt about that, I would put my money on Grahame's explanations being correct.)

By the way, am I the only person who has changed the default configuration so the exposure scale displays the minus compensation to the left side of zero and the positive compensation to the right side? Who thinks of positive as being to the left and minus as being to the right? Not I.

[Stagecoach]

Mike,

I did consider leaving the lefts and rights out and just using +/- But think I'll edit them out now just in case Christina has also changed from the default directions.

Agree all explanations are consistent, but there's something there causing confusion.

Grahame

[Mike Buckley]

there's something there causing confusion.

Being one who never uses exposure compensation while in manual mode, the confusing aspect for me is that adjusting the exposure compensation causes the exposure scale to change. From what I can tell, there is absolutely no helpfulness to using it. Indeed, using it adds an unnecessary step. I think it would be more effective if using it caused the entire exposure scale to blink on and off or for the scale to remain unchanged, indicating that it shouldn't be used because it can't be used.

As an example, Nikon cameras that have the command (rear) dial and the sub-command (front) dial operate that way with respect to using them while in aperture priority and shutter priority modes. When in aperture priority mode, turning the command dial, which would otherwise control the shutter speed, has no effect. Similarly, when in shutter priority mode, turning the sub-command dial, which would otherwise control the aperture setting, has no effect. (Those are the default settings but they can be changed.) It seems to me that turning the command dial in an attempt to adjust the exposure compensation while in manual mode should also have no effect.

I wonder how other manufacturer's cameras work in this regard.

[Downrigger]

funny. It makes sense to me. In manual, on my D600, the meter in the viewfinder IS a meter and it considers any EC input in showing "0" when the desired exposure is reached. As (+) EC is dialed in, the indicator on the meter moves left correspondingly requiring slower speed or greater aperture to zero the meter. Helpfully, in this situation, the viewfinder bar shows an EC symbol (+/-) next to the ISO to remind me that I have some EC dialed in (but, unhelpfully, does not tell me how much, which is one reason you may not use EC in manual, Mike). The alternative in manual is not to dial in any EC when you want to shoot brighter or darker, and to adjust your aperture and speed to move the light meter to read positive or negative depending on the desired modification of the metered exposure. This allows shot to shot adjustment of exposure with awareness of the sought for result unfettered by having to account for an underlying EC adjustment in the equation. In AP mode where I usually shoot, it is not a meter; it simply shows the amount EC I have dialed in, and blinks this message to help me note that I have applied EC to the metering algorithm.
I would think EC is primarily useful as a convenient (rough) estimate of the adjustment required when setting about shooting a large number of images that will be better if shot brighter or darker than metered in modes like AP, and I agree with Mike that it can get in the way when shooting in manual.

[Mike Buckley]

I think an additional part of the confusion is that the exposure scale indicates one thing when the camera is in an automatic mode such as aperture priority or shutter priority and the scale indicates something completely different when the camera is in manual mode. This makes absolutely no sense to me as a practical matter. I can't think of any other camera display that indicates different meanings depending on the other settings in effect at the time.

[Brownbear]

Hi Grahame,

Thank you for sharing. I am trying to relate the use of EC in manual mode to a landscape that is challenging to photograph.

Simply because I am comfortable with manual mode, and I use it with or without auto ISO and/or exposure compensation for birds, bugs, everything but landscapes and it works well for me.

The white cup filling the frame simply represents how I use EC in manual mode. ie; like a bright image of a swan filling the frame, or a white horse on snow which you just know will be underexposed if you photograph as seen in the viewfinder. With respect to the white cup I either decreased the shutter speed or chose a larger aperture. (Sorry for not including that)

Therefore when I wish to push the exposure 1 stop to the right, I dial in positive exposure compensation, and then I change the shutter speed or the aperture to increase the exposure. (decrease SS or choose a larger aperture depending on the conditions), and from that point on I know my images will be exposed to the right, ie; not underexposed. In manual mode using a fixed ISO. I use it all the time for birds, etc and I like it because it simplifies things by providing a view point of the exposure which will be to the right without thinking about it.

In Manual mode on auto iso, the shutter speed will decrease if the subject can't be exposed at my highest chosen ISO. And I realize that with EC and a set ISO, the shutter speed, aperture and ISO are changed only by me but for some reason I think that something is changing in the camera to effect the exposure (as seen by the exposure line in the view finder) and perhaps that it is somehow related to the metering mode I choose, ie; spot or matrix... For example if I'm photographing a black cormorant on dark water, in manual mode and I dial in negative exposure compensation to prevent over exposure, the results are different depending on my use of matrix or spot metering. (the latter I need to study up on)

So in the case of this particular scene of the trees when I couldn't manage an exposure without clipping at either end using Aperture priority (different image than the one posted). I switched to Manual mode and spot metering to see if it was possible to capture the range in a different way, using EC to compensate for either the shadows or highlights, and then adjusting my SS or aperture for the best compromise, and thinking that the metering mode chosen would also help me achieve the exposure.

So I know that I am not understanding something about the use of EC in manual mode (set ISO) and my choice of metering when photographing a landscape. ie; in the case of a snow covered mountain using the same method as a white bird/cup works but only because the entire scene is bright.

And although I know that I can achieve the same exposure with either matrix or spot metering, for some reason when stuck I think that spot metering might work better, and that it has something to with the light meter changed by using EC in Manual mode when using a fixed ISO. ie; I think that something has changed in camera although I don't understand what that is.

However, after thinking about I realize that tree scene was not all midtones with no blacks or whites as was obvious from the histogram, but for some reason (likely frustration) that just didn't click. ie; I need to work on seeing and understanding the light conditions in the scene, the zones and my understanding of metering.


I have also not read the replies, yet, simply because the replies may confuse my thought process in trying to explain what I was trying to do.

My apologies for the long convoluted answer. It is easier for me to express my thought process behind my choices, then in technical terms.



Note for Mike...

I realize that when you read my reply to Grahame you might think that I am changing my choice of modes and metering all of the time, but that is not the case.

I have been using Aperture Priority and matrix metering for my landscape images for almost 4 months now, likely 95% of the time. I do understand what happens with EC in aperture priority mode, and how to change the exposure using EC and ISO, and that matrix metering will produce the same results as spot metering. I have a pretty good understanding of the histogram, even though I know my understanding could be better (and I'm working on that)

I have been using this mode consistently for all of my landscape images for almost 4 months now. And with Live View, Mirror up, and a tripod (the tripod whenever possible, and if not I change to auto iso) and the only time I have strayed from this method is if I can't manage the exposure which is very rare.

It is kind of like if you are hanging up a picture and you know that you should use a hammer, nail, a wall plug and a screwdriver but for some reason it is not working but you want to hang that picture up right away (capture the scene) so instead you use a hairbrush for a hammer, do without the wall plug, and a dime to tighten the nail. Or when changing a tire on a car which one should do with a lug nut and crescent wrench (I've never changed a tire) but it is not working, so you try something else.

In thinking about the tree scene, I believe I now know what happened. That morning I planned on photographing a mountain view but the light was poor. The layers of light on the trees caught my attention, so I switched to photographing that scene, shooting almost into the sun which was beyond the camera's dynamic range. So I choose a slightly different angle, which still wasn't working (clipping at both ends of the histogram. It is very likely at that point in time, I changed to manual and spot metering simply because I wanted to capture the scene (trying another way), and by the time I managed an exposure with no clipping in the shadows and very little in the highlights, I just left it at that instead of dialing in more neg exposure compensation to improve the image, happy just to have managed that, or by that time I had run out of time and had to go.

As soon as the sunshine returns, I will try the scene again using Aperture priority and Matrix metering, only.


Thank you Grahame, and Mike. Truly appreciated, as always!



Grahame[/QUOTE]

[Brownbear]

Hi Grahame,

I have not changed my lefts and rights (I wouldn't know how to), and I agree with Mike that they confuse the thought process.

Mike,

I did consider leaving the lefts and rights out and just using +/- But think I'll edit them out now just in case Christina has also changed from the default directions.

Agree all explanations are consistent, but there's something there causing confusion.

Grahame

[Brownbear]

Yes! Thank you.

funny. It makes sense to me. In manual, on my D600, the meter in the viewfinder IS a meter and it considers any EC input in showing "0" when the desired exposure is reached. As (+) EC is dialed in, the indicator on the meter moves left correspondingly requiring slower speed or greater aperture to zero the meter. Helpfully, in this situation, the viewfinder bar shows an EC symbol (+/-) next to the ISO to remind me that I have some EC dialed in (but, unhelpfully, does not tell me how much, which is one reason you may not use EC in manual, Mike). The alternative in manual is not to dial in any EC when you want to shoot brighter or darker, and to adjust your aperture and speed to move the light meter to read positive or negative depending on the desired modification of the metered exposure. This allows shot to shot adjustment of exposure with awareness of the sought for result unfettered by having to account for an underlying EC adjustment in the equation. In AP mode where I usually shoot, it is not a meter; it simply shows the amount EC I have dialed in, and blinks this message to help me note that I have applied EC to the metering algorithm.
I would think EC is primarily useful as a convenient (rough) estimate of the adjustment required when setting about shooting a large number of images that will be better if shot brighter or darker than metered in modes like AP, and I agree with Mike that it can get in the way when shooting in manual.

[Mike Buckley]

Hi Grahame,

I have not changed my lefts and rights (I wouldn't know how to), and I agree with Mike that they confuse the thought process.

See Custom Settings Menu item f8 explained on page 258 of your camera manual.

[Mike Buckley]

from that point on I know my images will be exposed to the right, ie; not underexposed.

You only know they will be exposed to the right. You don't know whether they will be underexposed, exposed "properly" or overexposed until you review the histogram.

I realize that with EC and a set ISO, the shutter speed, aperture and ISO are changed only by me but for some reason I think that something is changing in the camera to effect the exposure...
for some reason when stuck I think that spot metering might work better, and that it has something to with the light meter changed by using EC in Manual mode when using a fixed ISO. ie; I think that something has changed in camera although I don't understand what that is.

I don't understand why you continue to think using the Exposure Button when in Manual mode has changed anything to affect the exposure. So long as you continue to believe that's the case, you're going to be forever stuck.

Moreover, when you get stuck using aperture priority, matrix metering and exposure compensation thinking you are unable to achieve the best possible exposure for that lighting situation and composition, your very best solution is to do the following, not to change to metering modes that you don't understand how to use:

• Check your camera to ensure that it is in aperture priority mode. That button moves far too easily and is the first thing I check when I turn my camera on.
• Adjust your exposure compensation to a value of zero.
• Capture the image and review the histogram.
• Adjust the exposure compensation by one increment in the proper direction.
• Repeat the two steps immediately above until the histogram is the best that can be achieved in that light and using that composition.

As a reminder, though you insist that you are "comfortable" using manual mode, it's clear from your posts that you have not yet mastered it. So, your feeling of comfort is only a feeling that is sadly misleading you. Remember that people who have had their extremities removed regularly feel the removed portion.

[ajohnw]

It's simpler - never a bad idea - to forget aperture and shutter priority and manual and get to grips with P mode. That gives all of the alternatives that are available in the other modes. The range available just like the other modes is limited by the current ISO setting and has to be within the camera's speed range and the lens's aperture range. Set this way the range of speed and apertures that can be set alter in unison keeping the meter happy. Where cameras have a 2nd wheel that can be used for compensation. If no second wheel - a button has too be pressed just as it would have to be in the other modes. Some cameras will show the meter centred and the exposure compensation as a separate number. Others will show the compensation on the meter scale so when compensation has been set and is no longer wanted just point the camera and centre the indicator again.

Spot metering - it can be interesting to scan an area of a scene that looks even slowly and watch the indicator jump around. For judging metering tones centre weighted is often better.

Going back to Christina's first question on the the shot and the NEF she posted she is asking too much of the camera for a single shot. At the exposure used the sky is easily blown top right via raw exposure compensation and the dark trees are maybe a stop down on what they need. If the extra stop had been used the row of trees effect would be lost as the top row would be even more washed out,

It's a peculiar exposure. Looking more closely. The sky clips on red channel only first. There is only a few 1/10 of a stop between the sky and the top tree line. There is nothing clipping at the dark end but the tree contrast only amounts to a few bits. Something like 16 - 19 darkest to brightest. Not enough to do anything with really.

The red channel in the sky seems to have messed something up - if contrast is upped in the dark tree line with a simple contrast layer blue starts appearing.

I'd guess Chistina may have needed the lens hood on as it looks to me like the sun has had an effect. Can't imagine any other reason for the red channel problem. Perhaps the sun is just lighting the mist too much in the top right corner or there is rather a lot of flair all over the shot.

Histogram



From raw. Full tonal range. Shadow recovery, mid-high tone range contrast adjustment, reduce and sharpen slightly. The red and blue effects can be seen. More shadow recovery would show even more blue just as contrast increases do.



John
-

[Brownbear]

Yes, I know that and I always check my histogram.


Perhaps because when in Manual mode when using auto iso, the shutter speed on my camera will change if the max iso is not sufficient. That said, I see that is not the case so I will give it up.

I will follow those steps exactly, in that order. Presuming, that it is okay to adjust the exposure a little bit to the right, as I would do in a foggy day scene as long as I avoid clipping the highlights.

I am not saying that I have mastered Manual Mode for all scenes (especially landscapes), but when I'm photographing certain subjects such as birds my exposures are fine, ie; properly exposed and not clipped at either end. Nor am I saying that this is the case all of the time.

Thank you, as always.

You only know they will be exposed to the right. You don't know whether they will be underexposed, exposed "properly" or overexposed until you review the histogram.



I don't understand why you continue to think using the Exposure Button when in Manual mode has changed anything to affect the exposure. So long as you continue to believe that's the case, you're going to be forever stuck.

Moreover, when you get stuck using aperture priority, matrix metering and exposure compensation thinking you are unable to achieve the best possible exposure for that lighting situation and composition, your very best solution is to do the following, not to change to metering modes that you don't understand how to use:

• Check your camera to ensure that it is in aperture priority mode. That button moves far too easily and is the first thing I check when I turn my camera on.
• Adjust your exposure compensation to a value of zero.
• Capture the image and review the histogram.
• Adjust the exposure compensation by one increment in the proper direction.
• Repeat the two steps immediately above until the histogram is the best that can be achieved in that light and using that composition.

As a reminder, though you insist that you are "comfortable" using manual mode, it's clear from your posts that you have not yet mastered it. So, your feeling of comfort is only a feeling that is sadly misleading you. Remember that people who have had their extremities removed regularly feel the removed portion.

[Brownbear]

Thank you John. Truly appreciated. However, I am going to stick with Aperture priority for my landscapes. I've been working with this mode for almost 4 months now, so eventually it will all come together.

This image was either taken just before, during or after sunrise. My 300 mm lens has a lens hood on it, so I would've used it. Yes, the clipping was in the highlights in red channel.

It's simpler - never a bad idea - to forget aperture and shutter priority and manual and get to grips with P mode. That gives all of the alternatives that are available in the other modes. The range available just like the other modes is limited by the current ISO setting and has to be within the camera's speed range and the lens's aperture range. Set this way the range of speed and apertures that can be set alter in unison keeping the meter happy. Where cameras have a 2nd wheel that can be used for compensation. If no second wheel - a button has too be pressed just as it would have to be in the other modes. Some cameras will show the meter centred and the exposure compensation as a separate number. Others will show the compensation on the meter scale so when compensation has been set and is no longer wanted just point the camera and centre the indicator again.

Spot metering - it can be interesting to scan an area of a scene that looks even slowly and watch the indicator jump around. For judging metering tones centre weighted is often better.

Going back to Christina's first question on the the shot and the NEF she posted she is asking too much of the camera for a single shot. At the exposure used the sky is easily blown top right via raw exposure compensation and the dark trees are maybe a stop down on what they need. If the extra stop had been used the row of trees effect would be lost as the top row would be even more washed out,

It's a peculiar exposure. Looking more closely. The sky clips on red channel only first. There is only a few 1/10 of a stop between the sky and the top tree line. There is nothing clipping at the dark end but the tree contrast only amounts to a few bits. Something like 16 - 19 darkest to brightest. Not enough to do anything with really.

The red channel in the sky seems to have messed something up - if contrast is upped in the dark tree line with a simple contrast layer blue starts appearing.

I'd guess Chistina may have needed the lens hood on as it looks to me like the sun has had an effect. Can't imagine any other reason for the red channel problem. Perhaps the sun is just lighting the mist too much in the top right corner or there is rather a lot of flair all over the shot.

Histogram



From raw. Full tonal range. Shadow recovery, mid-high tone range contrast adjustment, reduce and sharpen slightly. The red and blue effects can be seen. More shadow recovery would show even more blue just as contrast increases do.



John
-

[Mike Buckley]

Nikon Capture NX2's tool that displays clipped highlights indicates that a miniscule area is clipped in the red channel and that a larger but still very small area is clipped in the green channel. All clipping is in the same very small area of the sky. All such clipping is easily recoverable during post-processing.

[ajohnw]

Thank you John. Truly appreciated. However, I am going to stick with Aperture priority for my landscapes. I've been working with this mode for almost 4 months now, so eventually it will all come together.

This image was either taken just before, during or after sunrise. My 300 mm lens has a lens hood on it, so I would've used it. Yes, the clipping was in the highlights in red channel.

If you used P mode as suggested you would still be working in aperture priority as you would use the wheel to select the aperture you want. There is no difference. The speed will change automatically to maintain the exposure. The same applies to speed priority for your eagles where you would select the speed you want. The only real need for the other mode, manual mode, is flash gun work where exposures are set up to the max sync speed and the flash gun makes up the light needed to match the selected aperture. The meter will usually show under exposure then. That gives some idea of how much flash lighting will be used.

Any way each to their own but it surprises me how few people realise just how P mode works. Some see it as an auto mode which in a sense it is but it's also one which allows full control of the camera settings.

John
-

[Stagecoach]

The reality is that whatever mode (P,A,S or M) with whatever metering system (S,C or M) you use to take a picture the results can be identical and as you want them if you understand what you are doing.

A dynamic range that is too high for the camera or difficult lighting scenario can not be solved by changing modes of camera operation.

John, I agree that 'P' mode can provide extremely good results but I can see absolutely no advantage of it over lets say 'Aperture Priority' mode for a photographer that has the knowledge to know that either speed or aperture is priority in what they are doing. It's just another method if used knowledgeably to achieve the same result.

Grahame

[Mike Buckley]

+1 to Grahame!

[ajohnw]

Nikon Capture NX2's tool that displays clipped highlights indicates that a miniscule area is clipped in the red channel and that a larger but still very small area is clipped in the green channel. All clipping is in the same very small area of the sky. All such clipping is easily recoverable during post-processing.

It's only clipped if the raw exposure is set so that it is clipped Mike. Leave it in as I did and the shot shows that there is an odd colour balance problem if full use of the high end dynamic range of the raw file is used. It's easy to get rid of it but that does have knock on effects - mainly less contrast at the high end. Not much less true but there isn't much there.

One thing I suspect NX-2 will do well on this shot is recover shadow better via the d light slider as it appears to try and maintain contrast as shadows are recovered. Bit like brushing a curve on them but less bother.

I strongly suggested that Christina tries NX for all of her raw development as the way Nikon handle camera ICC files is a bit of a nightmare. The d light is a bonus. Open source isn't so bad as dcraw has been tuned to do NEF files and the output should only need slight curve changes to get something sensible.

The blue in recovered shadows is more interesting. It suggest a bit of a blue over response from the sensor. Usually taken care of with rgb levels at some point. I did do an exposure and did that and blue was well out of sync with the main luminance. I'd put that mainly down to under exposure at the dark end - fix that and the high end goes awol - - too much in the scene for even 2 shots from a single raw file let alone 1.

John
-