Learning Landscapes - Sunlit Trees

[ajohnw]

The reality is that whatever mode (P,A,S or M) with whatever metering system (S,C or M) you use to take a picture the results can be identical and as you want them if you understand what you are doing.

A dynamic range that is too high for the camera or difficult lighting scenario can not be solved by changing modes of camera operation.

John, I agree that 'P' mode can provide extremely good results but I can see absolutely no advantage of it over lets say 'Aperture Priority' mode for a photographer that has the knowledge to know that either speed or aperture is priority in what they are doing. It's just another method if used knowledgeably to achieve the same result.

Grahame

Dead true Graham and I wont argue. What started me on it was the fact that unless I want to use flash the camera is always in P mode and the other thumb wheel is always on exposure compensation. I select what speed or aperture I feel I need and the meter remains centred. I then set any compensation I need. From time to time I may need to press a button to change ISO. And that's it. Maybe I am lazy. On the other hand I am bemused by people who say I always shoot in this or that mode when one mode in real terms gives all of them.

Actually in terms of this thread which is now rather long so I only skirted through it and noted comments about exposure I gained the impression that Christina may feel she set the wrong exposure where as in practice it's doubtful that it could be improved that way. In fact if it was gone through in detail she probably set the only exposure possible while retaining equally limited detail at each end.

John
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[Mike Buckley]

In fact if it was gone through in detail she probably set the only exposure possible while retaining equally limited detail at each end.

I disagree and I think my post showing that there was considerable leeway for shooting at a lower exposure proves it. Having said that, her exposure was fine. The so-called perfect exposure might have been less than 1/3 stop lower.

I wonder if you're not realizing that that was not the focus of the discussion. Instead, it was about her incorrect statement that it was not possible to capture the image without clipping both the highlights and the shadows. I proved using her NEF that this was not at all correct.

It's an interesting discussion but even I can eventually become worn out rehashing everything. I'm at that point.

[Brownbear]

Thank you John, Grahame and Mike

John,

I truly appreciate the time and effort and your explanation of P mode, analysis of the exposure. I don't doubt that P mode works equally well, but since my goal has been and still is to master aperture priority, I will be sticking with that.

Grahame,

Thank you for taking the time to help and adding explanations about being able to achieve any exposure in any of those modes, with any type of metering, and also for clarifying the use of exposure compensation in manual mode with a set iso. I suppose part of learning and knowing with confidence is also being able to read things on such subjects, and being able to just know that that is not always the case (and manage with each mode), and I am not there yet.

John and Mike,

The image I posted is not the image that was clipped at both ends (I deleted those images because they were badly clipped in the shadows). The image is simply an example to show the dynamic range/contrast of the scene, to show that it was close, and too much in my other captures of the scene.

Mike, John, Grahame, and to everyone else who replied.

Thank you. This thread contains a lot of great information to learn from and think about, but more than enough for me to digest fully, right now.

Thank you to everyone.

[ajohnw]

One question wasn't answered. Camera curves and any effects on the histogram. The easiest way to find out how many stops a camera puts into jpg's as the camera settings are changed is to look in the jpg dynamic range sections of camera reviews on dpreview. Easy to find just google dpreview camera model. eg google dpreview d7100.

Hopefully the preview histogram range will change as these are altered. It's something I intend to try but haven't yet. There are usually several settings these days. A steep curve for subjects with little dynamic range and often another aimed at just getting the maximum possible number of stops in. That one will reduce jpg contrast all over not just at the bright and dark end as the others usually do.

With subject like this NEF though there is not going to be much scope for brightening up the dark areas how ever it's exposed without blowing highlights. This one would need 2 shots merged to get what the eye could probably see. Some less contrasty shots can be improved by developing 2 exposures from raw.

Interesting NEF. I had another play out of curiosity to see how much could be pulled up without too much trouble. In some ways the result fits in with the problems with the shot - see the rather bright right hand top corner. Still deep shadow though. This was done using levels and the strange blue cast minimised by changing the blue mid tone setting after the luminosity adjustment had been made. The dark end was bumped up by say 30 odd bits in the output to do this and a contrast layer added which "sort of" bought back the misty trees a little more. C&C not welcome - It's nothing more than see how much shadow detail could be recovered given that it was a near perfect exposure. Comments on how best to recover shadow are always of interest.



John
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[Brownbear]

While I am reluctant to bump this thread, it is important to me, personally, that folks don’t think that I am not following the advice I receive as that would imply that I don’t value the time that numerous members have taken over the past two years to help me improve my photography skills. The fact is that, I treasure all the advice and help that I have received, and I always will.

Yesterday at sunset, and again this morning at sunrise I set out to photograph a couple of landscape scenes that I have previously found challenging to expose properly. I figured that the best way to figure out my confusion was to replicate the scenario.

I set my camera to aperture priority (matrix metering) and chose my aperture for what I thought would provide me with the best combination of sharpness, depth of field and the overall feel of the image.

I took a test shot for each image and as soon as I came across a scene that I had challenges exposing for properly (as seen by viewing my histogram), I dialed in a little bit of exposure compensation ( +1 or -1) to see if that would bring the exposure where I thought it should be. If the little bit of exposure compensation, didn’t do it, I changed the aperture to either lighten or darken the image one way, and then tried to offset that again with exposure compensation. As dumb as that may sound, it was then that I realized that when I’m using aperture priority, I should stick with the first aperture I choose, (unless it is obvious from live view that the image is not sharp enough or the DOF is not what I envisioned) - that the only thing I should be changing to adjust the exposure when in aperture priority is the shutter speed via by using exposure compensation button, to achieve the best possible exposure for that image at my chosen aperture.

While I know that when I’m using aperture priority that the exposure compensation button will adjust the exposure by adjusting the shutter speed, for some reason I was also changing the aperture to adjust for the scene at hand. I see now that there is no need to adjust the aperture when in aperture priority. Once I realized that, and stayed with my chosen aperture I was able to obtain a decent exposure on the majority of the exposures I tried, simply by using exposure compensation.

I also now realize that in Aperture priority (with a fixed ISO) I should be able to expose for almost any scene using exposure compensation to adjust the shutter speed (excluding scenes with a huge dynamic range), and I suspect that in Shutter Priority with a fixed ISO the use of exposure compensation button to adjust the aperture works in a similar manner. ie; I could photograph a silky waterfall by choosing a super slow shutter speed, and using the exposure compensation button to adjust the aperture, and not have to touch the shutter speed button. (or use any other type of metering)

Anyhow, as senseless as my thought process on how some things work in my camera may be, I understand it now.

To demonstrate that I do listen and try, following are some clips of typically difficult exposures (for me) that are typical of the type that I have been struggling with for the past four months that I think I managed quite well, once I figured out that it was best to stick with my original chosen aperture. (raw images, not sharpened as the only point is to show the histograms)

Another version of the sunlight trees, which has room in the sky to decrease the exposure... (it was cloudy and the light was not the same, and this is one image that I intend to try again another day)















Thank you to everyone for your help with this.

[Brownbear]

ADD ON...

When I started this Learning Landscapes thread I thought it would be beneficial for others to learn from what I learn and from my mistakes. In hindsight, because I am still learning and I seem to have a tendency to make things too complicated I think that my Learning Landscapes threads result in a lot of confusion, which creates too much work for those forum members who take the time to sort out the confusion.

Therefore, I have decided to discontinue my Learning Landscapes thread. However, because there seems to be a lot interest (as seen by the number of views) in learning to photograph landscapes, I would like to say that if someone out there a little further along the learning curve than I, who wishes to improve their landscapes - take the Learning Landscape title and continue with it.

Be assured that I will continue with my original goal of improving my landscape images and mastering aperture priority. I will continue to share my landscape images seeking advice to improve upon them, but with a mind to tackle one thing at a time.

PS While I felt compelled to share there is absolutely no need to reply to either of my last posts. It's time for this thread to disappear into never never land!

[JBW]

C., having lived there you can take this as a compliment. you got the snow on the mountains perfectly. I remember many a year when I watched the snow coming down the mountains around Kitamaat.

[Mike Buckley]

Christina,

You have clearly come upon a major misunderstanding that you had and corrected it. Good for you! To explain it perhaps a bit more precisely and to provide confirmation that your new-found thinking is spot on...

The sole reason for using aperture priority is to use the ideal aperture for whatever reason (using the sweet spot of the lens with regard to sharpness, controlling the depth of field as you see fit, etc.) and to let every other factor be subservient to it. That's because, indeed, nothing is more important than the aperture in that situation; it's called "aperture priority" because the aperture setting is the highest priority when it comes to the factors that affect the exposure. So, once you determine what that aperture should be, do NOT change it (as I gather you have now surmised).

Whether or not you are using Auto ISO while operating in aperture priority mode, change your exposure using only the Exposure Compensation button.

[Mike Buckley]

Another version of the sunlight trees, which has room in the sky to decrease the exposure

More important, all of the images as indicated by the histograms have room in the sky to increase exposure and room in the shadow areas to decrease the exposure depending on the look you are trying to achieve. All of those exposures as indicated by the histogram allow you to change the exposure in your post-processing software with a reasonable degree of success. Most people would "expose to the right" more than you did, but you might eventually have different goals.

Well done!