Schiehallion ... and that debate about how much to clone

[Donald]

Schiehallion (the fairy mountain of the ancient Caledonians) is a magnificent lump of rock. This is it on 24th March 2014, viewed from the south-east and looking north-west.

A very different picture (and I'd not put it in the same class) as AA's 'Clearing Winter Storm', but the elements in this image put me in mind of it.

Just recently we had a discussion about cloning and how much is too much, if any. Well, I faced that question with this one. Look at that electricity pylon. Should it stay? Should it have come out?

The fact is, it is there. If I thought it was too intrusive, should I have shot the photograph in the first place? Does its inclusion add to the 'narrative' of the image and show us what the landscape is really like?

So, where are the cables? Well, if you look closely, you can see them. However, I did clone them where they ran across the darker pine trees at the bottom right. If I was prepared to do that, should I have just gone the whole way?

Questions, questions, questions!

[IMG][/IMG]

[Shadowman]

For the person who has actually visited this region, they would probably expect to see the cables and would perhaps be disappointed they aren't there or believe you shot this image before they were installed or believe you photoshoped the image. I think if because you left the pylon viewers will assume you did more retouching, if you hadn't mentioned the cloning, some might not even notice the lack of cables and some wouldn't care as the image is majestic enough to hold their attention. Personally, I would have taken the photo regardless of the obstructions and any editing would depend on my personal vision. If I were entering this image into an official contest, I'd definitely mention the editing especially if there were restrictions on editing.

Nice image.

[IzzieK]

Donald...it is nice as it is...In it there are aspects of different ways to look at this kind of scenery. To my mind, leave it the way it is for now (until you perhaps changed your mind later). I love the way you did this in this medium (B/W). Without you mentioning that you cloned out some electrical wires, I wouldn't have noticed but now by the power of suggestion, my eyes tend to b drawn towards the pylon in the middle of the shot. To me it shows progress of modernization creeping in even through virgin lands...So John is right...it becomes a personal preference to clone it out or not. It is your shot anyway so you can do as you wish...

On the other hand, without the pylon showing as it is now, it will tend to be just another scenery, nothing to comment about but the way you shot it: sharpness, wildness of the area perhaps...or another story...With the pylon, some others will perhaps comment why oh why did he included that pylon in this shot??? Hey...it is part of the scene. Leave it as is...

Just me...

[Mike Buckley]

My vote always goes to making the image as we envision it before releasing the shutter.

As an example, when I saw a gorgeous tree in South Africa, my mind ignored the buildings and electricity wires that were visible though not prevalent; the tree and its surroundings except for those that were man-made comprised the scene that grabbed my attention and was the scene that I wanted to portray. So, when I post-processed the photo, I removed all of the man-made objects that could be clearly observed.

Let's assume though that I had instead seen the scene as a stalwart tree thriving among and adding to the beauty of mankind's existence near and around it. In that situation, I wouldn't have removed any of the man-made objects when post-processing the photo.

Another way of putting it is that the factors that drive the decision being discussed depend totally on the story that we want our images to tell.

[Donald]

My vote always goes to making the image as we envision it before releasing the shutter.

That's exactly what I feel, but hadn't found words to express it as eloquently as Mike has done here. In fact, it's exactly what I think and I suppose what I wrote in the original post above think was me trying to sort out a conflict that I was having with myself.

[ajohnw]

That's a neat way of looking at it Mike.

People see things in different ways though. I recollect posting a shot taken in Turkey on here looking for ideas. Really in some ways the scenery was impossible to capture but this one wasn't too bad. One immediate comment was "I would get rid of the buildings for a start". I framed those carefully and one of them was a cave dwelling that is still lived in, another fairly old and one more modern with a flat roof just visible. And a few others typical of the area. All part of the scene and not really relevant to composition. They were in the right place. No solution that would satisfy everybody. Some interesting PP came out of the post though.

In this case as the pylon doesn't really smack anyone in the face I wouldn't be bothered if it was cloned out or left in. When I saw it my immediate thought was that closer up and at the right angle it might even make an interesting very strong foreground item. An idea to tuck away in case a suitable opportunity presents itself.

John
-

[Mike Buckley]

No solution that would satisfy everybody.

Exactly. Once we accept that that fact applies to almost every photograph ever made, it becomes very easy to determine who we should satisfy. If we're making an image for a client (whether paying or not), we should envision the image according to the client's tastes and make the image accordingly. Otherwise, we photographers should envision and make the image to meet our own needs.

[Brownbear]

Hi Donald,

Beautiful image, just as it is (for me). I like the electricity pylon... For some reason I find it attractive, perhaps because its shape (with the wires) mimics the shape of the mountains.

I'm sure it would be just as beautiful without the electricity pylon, and that an artist might choose the paint the very scene with or without it. I'm still learning how I feel about post processing, but I agree with all that it depends on the purpose of the image, and ones' artistic vision.


By the way, I think your landscape images are beautiful. I especially adore your compositions and the way you use the sky in your images. Although I don't always take the time to comment, I'm learning a lot from you just by viewing your images.

Thank you.

[dje]

Hi Donald

I think this is a lovely image. It shows the mountain in all it's majesty. The light is just right.

IMHO, the electricity tower should go !

Dave

[Polar01]

It all depends on who's reality it is, yours or someone else's. So it really does not matter it is your reality that matters.

Cheers: Allan

[FootLoose]

Beautiful processing, Donald, as soon as I saw it I thought of AA.

[deetheturk]

Great capture Donald,the pylon does not bother me!

David

[AndrewMcD]

Wonderful image. Your call on what it does or does not need.

Depends on how the photographer sees it, how the photographer imagines it. Short of misrepresentation or a deliberate lie I've no moral compunctions about what might be altered in an image.

Andrew

[tbob]

Coming late to this. I am biased and spend an inordinate amount of time removing power lines and poles from "natural" scenes. They just bug me. I have one old barn I love to shot; except I can never get it without a bunch of power poles and lines behind it. And I have to clone them out which is a job of a half hour.

I think Mike made some excellent points on decision making. I just hate power lines and poles. They must die.

[Plumcrak]

I believe that it depends on what kind of image you are after. If you want a documentary image then everything should be left as is. If you are making the image to suit the image in your head then that opens it up to interpretation and you can clone out or add anything your heart desires. In the end it is your image...do with it what you want to.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

[shreds]

Donald,

You are the creator, the photographer, the artist. Therefore you decide what is on your palette, what the finished product looks like.

As long as you do not misrepresent something....you are not photographing for evidential purposes, or to sell something such as a hotel room view, then it is totally within your remit as to how you create the image. That principle has been going on since the start of photography and will continue.

I am sure a lot of people here would not know what the reality of the situation is and look at it as a photograph of a mountain scene, which most will never visit anyway. You are not creating a travel guide to Scotland (or are you)?

[Donald]

Thank you to all contributors. A good discussion.

I absolutely agree that, for the purposes of what I'm doing (seeking to create something akin to a fine art image), it is the creation of a finished product which reflects a vision of how I saw the scene, that is important. It can be fairly argued that I have manipulated the scene to a huge extent anyway - by removing colour from it.

You are not creating a travel guide to Scotland (or are you)?

I wish! I'm available for a telephone call from VisitScotland, the national tourist promotion agency.