Is it worth a full frame camera ?

[inkista]

Going or not going to a FF camera is one of the issues that puzzles me, and the second one is if getting rid of DSLRs, selling all the parts patiently collected during the last years (that is, the lenses) and buy a mirrorless camera with a set of good lenses. This is a hard decision because all the money that I have spent during these years was spent thinking on ending with a good DSLR equipment.

And that's where being a decade-long digital-only shooter and being a decades-long film and digital shooter gives you a different view. Camera gear and technology is always turning over. Nothing ever stays the same in the hardware landscape, and digital has merely accelerated the process. View cameras gave way to rangefinders and TLRs which gave way to SLRs which gave way to dSLRs, which may now be giving way to mirrorless (but note, there are still folks out there shooting with view cameras, rangefinders, TLRs and film SLRs). And mirrorless will not be the "permanent" solution, either, as something else may come along to replace it.

Photography, unlike most of the other arts is technology dependent. And technology never stands still.

Is it time to conclude that I may be wrong ?

Maybe not wrong. Just working in a different frame of context, now. When you started out getting your gear, there probably were no mirrorless cameras to consider. I know I was aiming for full frame, because I shot film for 20+ years, and my XT, much as I loved it, felt like having tunnel vision.

And it doesn't have to be "or"--it can be "and". I shoot a 50D (birding), a 5DMkII (landscapes/product/portraits) and a micro four-thirds G3 (most everything). Mirrorless is not a complete replacement for dSLRs, although they can be depending on what you shoot and what lenses you favor. But the systems are still young, and not as mature as dSLR gear; fast-action capability is not as good, and 3rd party support is nowhere near as broad or deep.

Mirrorless cameras imply less weight and volume for the equipment, and this is something to consider. Quality is supposed to be better on the DSLRs but I guess that the gap between both type of cameras is going down and down....

Yup. While it's not my 5DMkII, my cheapie little G3 comes close enough for me, that it's become my main camera for the convenience of the size/weight. I'm willing to put up with 2x crop limits and lower-than-a-dRebel handling for what I'm getting and how little I'm lugging about with me (my bag is 5lbs, with the G3 and five lenses in it. And 2.3 lbs of that is the bag.)

G3+Olympus 9-18:

Most mirrorless cameras are not FF and now we come back to the origin of this thread: does it make sense to go to a mirrorless camera ? This is a key decision for me because it brings me to a new approach to photography...

Only you can answer this. As I said, I held onto my Canon gear and just added mft to the bag. And while I'm thinking of selling the Canon gear my mft setup can replace, eliminating completely for me is still out of the question for me.

[Joan]

Thanks very much for your opinions and advises.

After thinking about it I will keep with the idea of buying the 6D. It is camera that definitely will fit my needs.

Concerning the weight issue, I think that I will be able to carry my bag with all my gear a few years more. Should the weight becomes a real problem, I can buy in the future a mirrorless camera (EOS M has an adapter allowing to use EF lenses with it, but I don't know if this makes really too much sense)

[inkista]

I should mention, I initially went to MFT because carpal tunnel was making my 50D/5DMkII painful to use. I've recovered from that, however, and I still choose to grab the MFT gear first. My bag went from 15-20lbs to 5lbs. And the difference this makes in how long and where and how I shoot is immeasurable. MFT has been a lot more fun and freeing, and I am starting to think of the Canon gear as the "formal"/"serious" shooting setup.

... Should the weight becomes a real problem, I can buy in the future a mirrorless camera (EOS M has an adapter allowing to use EF lenses with it, but I don't know if this makes really too much sense)

Just me, but EOS M, it's early days, yet. The system only has three lenses and two bodies, and one of those bodies (M2) and one of those lenses (11-22 ultrawide) aren't sold in the US. And adapting dSLR lenses to mirrorless removes a lot of the size/weight benefit. Micro four-thirds was my choice because of the lens sizes (and selection).

By the time you need a mirrorless, though, the EOS M story may have changed.

[rpcrowe]

Dave...

Folks have been waiting for a long time for the 7D Mkii to come down the pike.

I am willing to bet that the "improvements" to the Mkii (if one ever comes along) will ge primarily in these areas:

1. Enhanced video performance...
2. Articulating LCD monitor...
3. Wi-Fi capability...
4. Higher ISO performance...
5. Very likely a switch away from CF to SD memory...

None of the above improvements would interest me, so I put my money where my mouth is and purchased my second 7D camera about a year ago. The price at which I purchased the second body is cheaper than the prices of 7D cameras now. I have been happily shooting with it and don't expect it to immediately stop functioning when a Mkii comes along (if it ever does).

[inkista]

Actually, I'm willing to bet the 7DMkII picks up some of the AF system in the 5DMkIII, given that the 7D's AF system has now rolled downhill into the 70D (albeit with some feature dumbing down)--there's a lot of room between 19 and 61 AF points; as well as the 70D's PDAF sensor tech, which IMHO is quite a bit more than simply "enhanced video", given that it means the camera could AF down into the f/11 max-aperture range [think: teleconverters].

Doubt it'll pick up a flip-out, but it probably will get a touchscreen to go along with all the usual wi-fi and firmware goodies. But I also have this weird feeling there's going to be something unexpected/first-time feature, or else the wait wouldn't have been this long. Something along the lines of the 5DMkII getting HD video capability. Maybe they're gonna go 4K.

[ajohnw]

Kathy should have bought an EM-5

I suppose this strays from Is it worth a full frame camera. Well there is a luminous landscape page that reckons not really in respect to APS and it looks to me that most people can go further.

When people talk about limitations of m 4/3 I get the feeling that they are assuming rather than knowing. I've been meaning to stick some nothing special full res shots on the web for a while as it's only fair really for people to know what they would get. As I had a rather poor photographic 2013 I have just picked out 3 holiday shots. jpg's direct from the camera with no additional processing by me or the camera. All taken with an E-M5 and the 12-50mm lens.

First one gives an idea of dynamic range, The shadows were rather severe for a camera and shots with 1/3 to 1/2 sky in them often needed around -0.7ev

http://www.23hq.com/ajohnw/photo/15807403/original

The other 2 give and idea of resolution and tones. Some kids threw a ball in my direction in one of them.

http://www.23hq.com/ajohnw/photo/15807373/original

http://www.23hq.com/ajohnw/photo/15807399/original

All shot with the default camera curve and all would make rather large prints. There is more than enough detail for that. There are other camera curves available. It will take a while to see if they are worth using but the standard one does have more dynamic range in raw. Then there is the ability to manually adjust it. The mind boggles really. Maybe too much to take on.

Drawbacks are few really and mostly relate to manual focusing and in some instances focusing speed. I wonder if the E-M1 uses phase to kick the focus in the right direction. The problem basically is if for some reason it misses correct focus it may search through the entire focus range. Seldom happens but if extension tubes are added and the subject is close it can throw the AF off. Normally AF is quick.

As the camera uses sensor stabilisation I have had a couple of instances when I suspect that this has slightly clipped the frame - should have had a wider angle lens available really.

Another problem that I haven't experienced concerns live view. The sensor is on all of the time so it can get hot and spoil the noise performance. Most people who have noticed this shoot long video's and NEX..

One big plus is no need to check the preview on the camera screen. It comes up in the viewfinder and the display time can be set or no preview at all. No real need to worry about exposure compensation really as clipping is shown directly on the shot showing exactly where it is. It's too easy to just shoot again really. Actually the viewfinder can be set to show the tone levels as they will be recorded. Histogram too if wanted. The other knock on effect of the electronic view is pixels - it's capable of showing exactly the same things as the rear screen can. These days it usually has more pixels.

The real killer for me though is size and weight. Nothing to do with age. I have always found slr gear a bit of a pain to carry around. At one time that was a film camera and 4 primes. Then a DSLR and 2 zooms, A 170-500mm mostly stopped at home. On film I used better quality compacts a lot - auto nothing types other than crude metering. Limitations but easy to carry around. I have also used digital compacts even trying some of the very early ones that couldn't come anywhere near film. The Ixus was the first one to get anywhere near that.

John
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[dje]

Dave...

Folks have been waiting for a long time for the 7D Mkii to come down the pike.
.

But Richard the latest rumours said it would come out in March, that means today!

Dave

[dje]

Concerning the weight issue, I think that I will be able to carry my bag with all my gear a few years more. Should the weight becomes a real problem, I can buy in the future a mirrorless camera (EOS M has an adapter allowing to use EF lenses with it, but I don't know if this makes really too much sense)

Joan the 6D would have to be one of the lightest FF's around.

Dave

[dje]

If some one does make a mirrorless full frame camera

John Sony have the A7 and the A7r

Dave

[Brev00]

Colin,

Not a matter of strength, more some neurological issues perhaps from overusing that potent little mouse. But, you can't argue with the size and weight growth from film days. The D800 seems to be about three times the mass of my N80. The D90 was a step up from film but a more gradual and easy one. The combination of D800 and 85 1.4, for instance, is more of a quantum leap. Nothing I want to do to my hands at this time. Plus, I really don't have any reason to prove my strength beyond occasionally wielding a sledgehammer at a county fair.

[mahfoudhhi]

Good day everyone:
I saw a big difference in colours and sharpness and maybe in clarity between D-7000 and D-800 or D-4.
is this due to the time difference (later version and better sensor) or due to the difference between FF and half frame.
i have an example to mention:
will I see this difference between D-3300 and D-800 since they are both newly released?
thank you in advance.

[PhotomanJohn]

But, you can't argue with the size and weight growth from film days.

That is not true for all of us. In the film days on our trips to the high Sierras my dad was packing a 4X5, film packs, changing bag, studio tripod, etc and I was packing an RB67, film backs, prism viewfinder, light meter and three lenses. Things are a lot better now.

John

[ajohnw]

John Sony have the A7 and the A7r

Dave

I forgot noticing that but do remember some confusion NEX mount and NEX lenses aren't full frame?

I'm happy with the E-M5 anyway but just have to keep wondering about the E-M1 but not sure if that would offer any significant advantages. Also another sensor change it seems. I was how ever very impressed with the dark end recovery on Pen's with the Panasonic sensor. As it takes a while to fully get to know a sensor yet another change doesn't make much sense.

John
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[Joan]

Joan the 6D would have to be one of the lightest FF's around.

Dave

This is a good new ! Another reason to buy the 6D h

[Manfred M]

John - I dare say we disagree; not necessarily about the weight of the gear, but rather what one can do with it.

I know that people say that "it's the photographer, not the camera", but frankly that statement is not 100% true, otherwise everyone, including the pros and advanced amateurs would be shooting exclusively with their iPhones, and they're not. Plainly, in the right hands, a better camera results in better images. This has been my experience as well; until I got my current camera, I was missing shots that I wanted to get due to the technical limitations of my gear.

Frankly, if I could afford a Hasselblad, Phase One or Leica SL2, I would be dragging that gear (including the glass) around the world.

[ajohnw]

John - I dare say we disagree; not necessarily about the weight of the gear, but rather what one can do with it.

I know that people say that "it's the photographer, not the camera", but frankly that statement is not 100% true, otherwise everyone, including the pros and advanced amateurs would be shooting exclusively with their iPhones, and they're not. Plainly, in the right hands, a better camera results in better images. This has been my experience as well; until I got my current camera, I was missing shots that I wanted to get due to the technical limitations of my gear.

Frankly, if I could afford a Hasselblad, Phase One or Leica SL2, I would be dragging that gear (including the glass) around the world.

There is a world of difference between an iPhone and an E-M5 Manfred. As you well know. Pro's have an entirely different set of problems than even a very keen amateur but even then with something like a 1DX the main advantage is resolution plus a better camera is several respects. I already have a full frame camera but suppose some would say that a MKII or MKIII is a better camera. To that as far as most aspects go I would just say really!

Buttons are interesting too. I feel one of the most stupid things about a D7000 is putting meter selection and custom white balance where they have. ISO too really. The more direct controls there are on a camera the more this sort of thing is likely to happen - a user might even change something without being aware of it. Myset's and programmable buttons are a much better way of doing it so the sub mode dial on the D7000 is good as this also gives access to things that some one might want to change quickly. Really there comes a point where cameras have too many buttons.

There is no doubt that the biggest difference between one photographer and another is PP. So crop factors come down to how far is it possible to go. It's clear to me that 4/3 isn't too far for the vast majority of things people do with shots. Those jpg's are not unusual. There are loads on my flickr link some with clearly the wrong exposure as when there is shadow I often take 2 just in case I need it. There are also some taken at silly angles and in probably impossible conditions.

The only problem I have had so far really is birds in flight when they are more or less coming directly at me at speed. Some times the focus fails to lock. The answer to that on some cameras is to set a focus distance and shoot when they come into focus. Focus pre view is handy for that. As it turned out ISO gave unexpected results and I messed up the exposure. As I have said it takes a while to get to know a sensor. A camera too. I reckon around 500 shots in mixed conditions.

John
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[Colin Southern]

There is a world of difference between an iPhone and an E-M5

There sure is - on my iPhone I can send and receive texts, photos, eMails, videos - carry over 100 books with me all the time - have multiple alarms, stopwatch, timer, multi-time zone clocks, record voice memos (and eMail them), shoot stills, video, 120 FPS slo-mo, HDR, browse the web, schedule calender items, listen to thousands of songs, take notes, do all my banking / pay bills, enjoy an emulation of my HP 41CV calculator, answer posts and PMs here, read the news, scan documents to PDF and eMail them or upload them to Google Drive, schedule reminders and tasks, manage my Google Drive, follow my beloved Formula 1, handle my Time and Billing, and monitor my exercise, manage phone calls (including hosting conference calls), watch videos (and optionally beam them to my TV) ...

... and all of that is just on the home screen!

The E-M5 is just a dumb camera

[ajohnw]

There sure is - on my iPhone I can send and receive texts, photos, eMails, videos - carry over 100 books with me all the time - have multiple alarms, stopwatch, timer, multi-time zone clocks, record voice memos (and eMail them), shoot stills, video, 120 FPS slo-mo, HDR, browse the web, schedule calender items, listen to thousands of songs, take notes, do all my banking / pay bills, enjoy an emulation of my HP 41CV calculator, answer posts and PMs here, read the news, scan documents to PDF and eMail them or upload them to Google Drive, schedule reminders and tasks, manage my Google Drive, follow my beloved Formula 1, handle my Time and Billing, and monitor my exercise, manage phone calls (including hosting conference calls), watch videos (and optionally beam them to my TV) ...

... and all of that is just on the home screen!

The E-M5 is just a dumb camera

You should buy an E-M5 to go with it Colin. Or better still an E-M1 then you can control it with your iPhone.

But who knows what Olympus will put in them in the future. Maybe online banking. There are several obvious things which causes me some concern when I think of upgrading.

One thing I have found recently is that an EM-5 works with a 4/3 50-200mm F2.8 but it seems the most recent drive version wont. The old one misses focus occasionally mostly at rather short distances. It's pretty obvious when it does.

John
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[Colin Southern]

You should buy an E-M5 to go with it Colin. Or better still an E-M1 then you can control it with your iPhone.

It'll be a cold day in you-know-where before I'll even be caught dead with an Olympus in my hand, let alone buy one.

[Brev00]

John,

I was referring to my 35mm cameras and the transition I have taken from the likes of my N80 to dx and the more equivalent in terms of sensor/negative size D800. I don't know anything about medium format cameras and had to google RB67. One could go back to the days of Mathew Brady as well and site size and weight decline but that is apples and oranges. At least in terms of my point--the increased size and weight of dx and full frame digital cameras compared to previous, similar film models (to be more specific). So, you are right. You can clearly argue with that point. But, I was putting it in the context of my 35mm camera discussion and not referring to medium format models. Sorry about the confusion.