Is it worth a full frame camera ?

[Joan]

Hi Joan,

If your motivation is to take better pictures I would suggest you stay with the 450D until you can take better pictures.

Till when ? There are (I guess) 7 years that I have the 450D. Technology has evolved quite a lot since I bought it. I think that it is time to go for new hardware. My only issue is to try to get the best camera according to my needs and my pocket, and this is why I started this thread.

I am quite sure that the 6D will fulfil my needs. My only concern right now is if it is not already time to go for a mirrorless camera (less cost, less weight, less volume, less quality ?). I have spent a lot of time and money on my current equipment and it is difficult now to sell everything all and start from zero....

[Brev00]

You wouldn't be starting from zero. You would be starting from the point you have now reached. Staying with dx is the simplest solution but now you have put a new twist with the idea of going mirrorless. That is a big decision but, if it is right for you, don't let your gear guilt stand in your way. I think 7 years with one body is fantastic and makes my five years with my D90 seem like a long weekend. Going 4/3 is a big move but others have done it. I think you should really list your specific needs and check off each need against the three types. If one need stands out, then that will help. For example, if low weight is essential, 4/3 is your answer. If low noise and max bokeh is your thing, full frame is swell. If you really are happy with what you are doing but want the newest tech, stick with dx. You can't go wrong and you deserve to get what makes you smile.

[Sponge]

Till when ? There are (I guess) 7 years that I have the 450D. Technology has evolved quite a lot since I bought it. I think that it is time to go for new hardware. My only issue is to try to get the best camera according to my needs and my pocket, and this is why I started this thread.

I am quite sure that the 6D will fulfil my needs. My only concern right now is if it is not already time to go for a mirrorless camera (less cost, less weight, less volume, less quality ?). I have spent a lot of time and money on my current equipment and it is difficult now to sell everything all and start from zero....

I may be wrong but I think it's a case of 'do as I say and not as I do.' I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on a photography forum who hasn't bought a new camera in the last 7 years. Since you already have full frame lenses the 6D sounds like a logical choice but if you've already been considering a smaller mirrorless setup than I'd think hard before making your final decision. As you noted technology has evolved quite a bit since your 450D came out and even a m43 camera may be all you need (it has the best quality lenses and variety of the mirrorless systems). If you're curious, check out my pics through my signature link. All are with m43 and 'cheap' lenses (the most expensive being 225€) and I consider myself average at best as a photographer and with PP. Here's what a more skilled photographer can do with m43.

[FootLoose]

Whoever said money doesn't buy you happiness was probably poor.

I feel the need to add to this because a family member often uses "money can't buy happiness" as a defence of their chosen lifestyle.

Money can't buy happiness because happiness has not been commodified. You can't walk into your local supermarket and buy a can of happiness off the shelf. (I wish we could.)

But money can certainly buy the things that make you happy, whether that is food, shelter, clothing, or health care -- or the latest piece of technology.

[end of rant]

[Colin Southern]

I feel the need to add to this because a family member often uses "money can't buy happiness" as a defence of their chosen lifestyle.

Money can't buy happiness because happiness has not been commodified. You can't walk into your local supermarket and buy a can of happiness off the shelf. (I wish we could.)

But money can certainly buy the things that make you happy, whether that is food, shelter, clothing, or health care -- or the latest piece of technology.

[end of rant]

Reminds me of a quote I heard once:

"I've been poor, and I've been rich. Believe you me, rich is definitely better"!

[benm]

You can't walk into your local supermarket and buy a can of happiness off the shelf.

Oh yes you can. It's called chocolate.

[Joan]

I may be wrong but I think it's a case of 'do as I say and not as I do.' I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on a photography forum who hasn't bought a new camera in the last 7 years. Since you already have full frame lenses the 6D sounds like a logical choice but if you've already been considering a smaller mirrorless setup than I'd think hard before making your final decision. As you noted technology has evolved quite a bit since your 450D came out and even a m43 camera may be all you need (it has the best quality lenses and variety of the mirrorless systems). If you're curious, check out my pics through my signature link. All are with m43 and 'cheap' lenses (the most expensive being 225€) and I consider myself average at best as a photographer and with PP. Here's what a more skilled photographer can do with m43.

Patrick,

Your pictures are IMHO very good. I like particularly the pictures of the beaches....

What would you do in my situation ? Selling everything (lenses, multiplier, flash) and go for a 4/3 body and lenses ? Where would you sell your stuff ? What camera would you buy ?

Sorry but I'm in the middle of an existential crisis....

[inkista]

Joan, you know, in this entire thread, you haven't mentioned what you like to shoot, and how you like to shoot it. Do you mostly shoot landscape? street? cityscape? travel? studio portraits? wildlife? sports? product? macro?

I think you're forgetting that cameras are just tools. You're looking for a theoretical "best" tool, and there simply isn't one. There's a tool that's best for you. But this depends upon what/how you like to shoot and what your budget is. Some tools are better for some tasks than others. Whether you need to be full frame or crop, mirrorless or dSLR does depend on what you're shooting.

I shoot mostly walkaround subjects handheld, with birding and event shooting and 360x180 panos and little bits of a lot of other things thrown in. So for me, mirrorless could not really work as a complete solution. But since the walkaround/handheld is probably 85% of what I shoot, mirrorless works very well for me as my main system, and I supplement with my dSLRs when I'm shooting something the mirrorless system isn't as good at handling.

If you're primarily a street/travel shooter, then mirrorless is almost a shoo-in.

I would also say if you're this torn in your decision, consider setting aside some budget and just renting a 6D, and whatever mirrorless combo strikes your fancy. Have the reality of the cameras in your hands and the images on the computer to help you make up your mind.

There is often an inflated effect brought about by too much research/reading when you go into buying a new camera. I tend to find that actually shooting with one for a week can often bring you down to earth to the reality of the camera: finding out what its virtues and pitfalls really are in person, rather than inflated views from all the hype. You can read and be told that all your lenses are going to become 1.6x wider on a full frame, but until you actually shoot it, the huge impact this has is unlikely to register. Have you done the crop-factor math backwards on your lenses? As in a 24-105 on full frame looks like a 24-105/1.6 => 15-65 would on your 450D? That a 70-300 on full frame looks like a 43-187 on crop? Are you prepared for what going from 12 to 20 megapixel images is going to do to transfer and post-processing times/space? You can read about dual-wheel controls, but until you're in M mode, with one wheel for aperture and another for shutter speed, the real convenience doesn't occur to you.

Get your hands on the cameras. Reading will only get you so far.

[William W]

Joan, you know, in this entire thread, you haven't mentioned what you like to shoot, and how you like to shoot it. . .[how you do Post Production] . . .[etc]

+1

Previously requested:

I want to buy a new camera, because:
>I usually like this type of photography and I will / will not probably change from that
>I want to improve the following aspects of my photography
>The 450D is limited in these aspects
>I cannot do this; this and this adequately with my 450D
I think that now you have a lot of excellent GENERAL information about APS-C vs. 135 (aka Full Frame) Format - a follow up post with lots a details filling in the gaps outlined above will serve you well.

WW

[RichardTaylor]

Joan

I shoot with a Canon 40D (C 2007) and a Canon 5D (C 2005) and in the past I had a 350D.
As mentioned before the erganomics of the xxD and xD are a big step up from the xxxd and this will come in handy for capturing some images.
Re your existing lenses - the 24-105 is a dream on a full frame camera, for general purpose shooting, (that's one of the reasons I went full frame at the time).
I havn't purchased a DSLR since 2008 or a P&S in 2009 so I can't comment on newer cameras.

Only you can answer the question - is it worth it?

[Colin Southern]

Joan

I shoot with a Canon 40D (C 2007) and a Canon 5D (C 2005) and in the past I had a 350D.
As mentioned before the erganomics of the xxD and xD are a big step up from the xxxd and this will come in handy for capturing some images.

I'd like to echo Richard's comments on the 350D; I had one (briefly); image quality as such was (is) fine, but the ergonomics of modern xxD cameras are "night and day" compared to the 350D.

[Joan]

Joan, you know, in this entire thread, you haven't mentioned what you like to shoot, and how you like to shoot it. Do you mostly shoot landscape? street? cityscape? travel? studio portraits? wildlife? sports? product? macro?

This has result on a long thread and what I am looking for has been scattered along several posts (eg nr 51). Summarizing: I shoot normally static subjects, I would like to improve the high isos problem that I suffer with my current camera, I would like to improve also dynamic range, I'm not a pro at all but photography is one of my most enjoyable hobbies (together with my bike: its reservoir painting is on my CiC picture). I don't like carrying a heavy bag as I currently do with my gear, but I can survive with it. The equipment I have has been collected during many years and this is why is quite difficult for me to get rid of it. I would not like to regret in two years the decision that I'm going to take now regarding my new camera.

[Colin Southern]

This has result on a long thread and what I am looking for has been scattered along several posts (eg nr 51). Summarizing: I shoot normally static subjects, I would like to improve the high isos problem that I suffer with my current camera, I would like to improve also dynamic range, I'm not a pro at all but photography is one of my most enjoyable hobbies (together with my bike: its reservoir painting is on my CiC picture). I don't like carrying a heavy bag as I currently do with my gear, but I can survive with it. The equipment I have has been collected during many years and this is why is quite difficult for me to get rid of it. I would not like to regret in two years the decision that I'm going to take now regarding my new camera.

Hi Joan,

I've just had a re-read of all the posts in this thread; it sounds to me like possibly a bit of "equivocation" setting in? When that happens to me - usually - I'll just kick myself into action and just make a decision ("yes" or "no") and move on; with cameras there is often a HUGE overlap in capabilities -- and as such, often there is no "wrong" choice.

You've been buying lenses with FF in mind - the 6D fits the bill for you - so just go and buy the darned thing!

[RichardTaylor]

@ Joan
I have a friend who now shoots with a 6D (even motor sport!). He has owned a Canon 40D, 50D and 7D. He loves it.
An easy test to see if it is too big or heavy is to go into a shop and put your 24-105 on a 6D and feel how heavy (or not) it is, then imagine carrying around in a city, in your hand, for a few days. If the combination is too heavy then you may want to consider going with something smaller or lighter (Canon 100D? if you want to use your existing lenses). Personally I would not buy a camera that did not have a viewfinder.


Re carrying a lot of gear, and as a hobbyst I do have too much of it:
Don't carry it all with you, just take what you need (+back up when shooting for somebody else) for a shoot.
Some personal examples:
#1 I will go for a walk with just one body and lens (although more often or not it will be a tele).
#2 Shooting classical music concerts etc (no flash) , and family stuff (baby grand daughter) indoors it will be a shoulder bag with two bodies (backup for the concerts) and a bunch of fast primes. I don't have to carry them far and traditional shoulder bags are easy to work out of.
#3 Long vacations (6 weeks or so) with a bit of flying - Two bodies (backup, and in case my wife wants to take a few shots (I have to carry her camera) standard zoom, a tele zoom or ultra wide angle (destination dependant), and a 35mm F2 as a back up lens.
#4 Birding or motor racing (if only shooting for myself) - just one body and and a 100-400 lens (if shooting for a motor racing "client" I will have second body with another tele on it (for backup)).

[skilsaw]

Like a Napa Valley Cab--qualitatively better than a generic California wine.

And a few posts down, the writer says to strengthen yourself for lifting those heavy FF cameras, lenses, etc. by lifting jugs of beer.

Participating in the FF vs crop debate is best done accompanied by your alcoholic beverage of choice.
Just as wine and beer have a variety of fine characteristics that must be tested to be appreciated, so it is with cameras. FF or crop? It makes a great topic of conversation as long as you do not want a definitive answer.

[AB26]

I would like to improve the high isos problem that I suffer with my current camera, I would like to improve also dynamic range,

That, Joan, is reason enough to get a 6D.

[lukaswerth]

Oh yes you can. It's called chocolate.

One minute in the mouth, a year on the belly. Good deal, really!

Lukas

[ajohnw]

This sounds like a seeking justification thread to me. More of looking for an excuse for going full frame really. In some ways there is no answer to the question as things have moved on since the 450D.

There is an interesting run down on pro's and con's here

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/es...ame_myth.shtml

One thing it points out is that full frame weight isn't really as significant as some might think in comparison with a top end APS camera. For the same angle of view lenses are a different matter but as the link points out the manufacturers seem reluctant to make high end APS lenses so people fit full frame types instead.

It seems you will get the extra couple of stops of ISO the link mentions with the 6D. Dynamic range is another matter. It's rather hard to get information on what a variety of things do to that but there are 14bit APS cameras about as well. Many people on here take there shots at the lowest ISO setting possible what ever the camera is capable of doing. A look at noise performance of cameras on dpreview shows that many of the high settings available on cameras are very very noisy.

All in all I would say this is what makes one happiest / financial decision. If the 6D is likely to cause hunger due to lack of food or a trip to cash converters or a pawn shop to pay bills or silly APR loans personally I wouldn't go there. On the other hand looking at the 6D manual I can't see that the 5D MkIII really offers much extra really and the 6D costs a lot less money. The 6D seems to be a single thumb wheel design. Looking at it's manual the only oddity I noticed was the lack of an exposure compensation button. Instead of a button a switch has to be slid to one side to change the function of the thumb wheel to compensation. Subject to getting my hands on the camera that wouldn't bother me but I always spend some time looking at manuals before buying any camera. I may have missed other oddities but don't think so. You'd best read it yourself. It looks like there may be a rotary control round the multi way switch. That may be able to do a number of things but camera manufacturers are a miserable lot so I doubt if it will perform as the extra thumb wheel.

I'd say as you have the lenses and want it go for it finance permitting.

John
-

[Sponge]

Patrick,

Your pictures are IMHO very good. I like particularly the pictures of the beaches....

What would you do in my situation ? Selling everything (lenses, multiplier, flash) and go for a 4/3 body and lenses ? Where would you sell your stuff ? What camera would you buy ?

Sorry but I'm in the middle of an existential crisis....

Hi Joan, thank you for the compliment on my pictures and sorry for not having the chance to answer before.

I think I'd have a hard time deciding if I were in your situation as well, partially because selling stuff second hand sounds like a bit of a headache to me. One good thing from what I've seen though, is that Canon lenses etc. hold their value well and due to a large market would probably be the easiest to resell. If I were to go that route I'd probably try segundamano.es or ebay here in Spain unless you're involved in other forums that have a buy/sell page.

If you don't mind carrying your current camera/lenses now, I don't think changing to a 6D would be much of a problem. The lenses are the bulk of the weight. You'd get a big improvement in ISO etc.

I handled a 6D and thought it felt nice but for various reasons a full frame camera/lenses aren't ideal for my uses 95% of the time and I can't justify having 2 systems. Besides spending a lot of time exploring Madrid, I travel quite a bit with my wife whether that be short day/weekend trips within Spain or longer trips here or elsewhere. I spend a lot of full days walking around with my camera and at least 2 lenses (when I go extra light) or 4/5 lenses if I want to bring everything. Using m43 allows me to do that without it being a burden. It can be so small that there's no reason not to have a very capable/high quality setup at all times. Some of the m43 cameras can easily pass for a point and shoot which can be useful for street photography, concerts etc. These are some of the main reasons that m43 is right for me but depending on what and how you shoot it may or may not be what you're looking for.

You can't go wrong with what you decide so I'd just prioritize what is most important to you and be willing to compromise on one of the other aspects.