Filters for Land and Seascapes

[landscaper]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the forum and this is my first post so please go easy on me :-)

I've been looking into getting a 10 stop filter unfortunately. I don't have a huge budget, it's around £50.

I have came across the hoya Nd 400 which is a 9 stop and within my budget.

What could I expect from this? What would be the maximum exposure on a sunny day, is it a good filter.

I don't really want to buy without knowing these things, and the alternatives.

I hope someone is able to offer some advice,

Thanks

Landscaper

[Colin Southern]

Hi Davie,

The maximum exposure on a sunny day is going to also depend on your minimum lens aperture (eg the biggest F-Number). Assuming that's F22 and your lowest ISO is 100 then you'd be looking at 2.5 seconds.

Personally, I find fixed ND filters hard work - I've long since converted to variable ND filters (as have several other here) (generally once one converts to a variable ND filter and gets used to their many advantages then there's no looking back), but the flip side to that of course is that you get what you pay for and a quality variable ND filter like the Singh-Ray Vari-ND is going to be well outside your budget.

What is it that you're trying to achieve?

PS: I see that you're from Scotland -- being the tiny place that it is, you're probably only a few minutes drive from Glenfarg where our esteemed (and Vari-ND convert) Donald lives. Offer to buy him a pint at the local and I'm sure he'd show you his Vari-ND!

[landscaper]

Hi Colin,

Thank you for replying :-)

I have a standard Canon 18-55mm f3.6-5.6, so if I was to get a wide aperture would that extend to length of the exposure?

I do have some filters but i will be looking to shoot slow moving sea which will give me a misty look, i also like the effect of motion in the clouds, so i would like something that will help be get these types of photos, and have assumed that the 9-10 stop wold be ideal.

Im looking at this type of photos:

https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=seascapes

I dont know too much about those filters but I will do my research on them :-)

Glenfarg is about 130 miles from me!!

Thanks

Davie

[Colin Southern]

Hi Colin,

Hi Davie!

Thank you for replying :-)

You're very welcome

I have a standard Canon 18-55mm f3.6-5.6, so if I was to get a wide aperture would that extend to length of the exposure?

No - a wide aperture lets more light in, thus DECREASING the time of exposure. You're wanting to cut the light down - not let more through. I gave my figure based on the Sunny 16 rule, but in reality you'll almost never want to be shooting seascapes and waterfalls in the middle of the day as the light is harsh and unflattering -- plus, there's usually just too much of it. Best time is often just after sunset, where you'll get MUCH longer exposures.

I do have some filters but i will be looking to shoot slow moving sea which will give me a misty look, i also like the effect of motion in the clouds, so i would like something that will help be get these types of photos, and have assumed that the 9-10 stop wold be ideal.

Like these?








The problem with ND filters like that is that in essence they're a weapon that only fires in one direction when you're actually shooting at a moving target, and as such, if you only have the one, then you'll miss far more than you'll hit. Using them can be problematic too; with them installed you'll struggle to see anything through the viewfinder - focusing will be impossible with them on - so you're having to put them on / take them off - and constantly compensate for the fixed attenuation.

In contrast, a variable ND lets you compose and focus (with it set to minimum) and then set the shutterspeed of your choice for motion effect and aperture of your choice for DoF control - and then balance the exposure by dialing in as much or as little attenuation as you need (usually over a 2 to 8 stop range). Keeping in mind too that light levels change rapidly around that time of day - especially over a multi-minute exposure (which is often what you're needing).

[landscaper]

Hi Colin,

They are great photos you did a brilliant job with them........ that is the type of photography I am aspiring to, i just love these type of photos :-)

How long was the exposure for the second one?

You are now bringing up issues that I have not considered and thanks for this, it means I might have to reconsider my options because what I dont want is to end up frustrated and the filter being left to gather dust.

During twilight what kind of exposures are you capable of getting with your variable filter?

I might consider going down that road myself, but unfortunately with a cheaper end filter, but its a staring point for me :-)

Thanks

Davie

[bnnrcn]

Welcome Davie,I have a 10 stop ND filter .I'm a beginner too and I couldn't have the opportunity to use my ND filter very much because of the winter.But What I realized when I tried it with the clouds for the moving effect was that,my 18-55 mm kit lens wasn't enough to shoot the clouds together with the seashore.So I bought a 11-16 mm Tokina(My camera is a Canon 1100D -cropped sensor ) So,if you are inspired for the landscapes with rocks , sea and clouds I would suggest that you should buy an ultra wide angle lens in time.For the time being you might as well have a go with your 18-55mm and when you really feel the need and if your budget lets you do, then you can buy a wider lensGood luck to you in your photography advanture.

[landscaper]

Hi bnnrnc,

Thank you!!

In time I will get a wide angle lens for sure, I do like the one I have but they are good for there own thing and for landscape this might not be its strongest point.

How did your 10 stopper work with the new lens? I hope you got some nice results :-)

How has your experience been with the 10 stopper out of interest, and if you dont mind me asking, what filter do you use.

Thank you and I will be posting the results when I have the filters (and weather).

Davie

[Colin Southern]

Hi Colin,

They are great photos you did a brilliant job with them........ that is the type of photography I am aspiring to, i just love these type of photos :-)

Hi Davie,

Thanks for the kind words

How long was the exposure for the second one?

Effectively, 3 minutes. I took 5x 1 minute exposures with a GND filter, but water splashed on the filter for the last 2 frames in the bracket - so it's just the 3x 1 min exposures combined.

You are now bringing up issues that I have not considered and thanks for this, it means I might have to reconsider my options because what I dont want is to end up frustrated and the filter being left to gather dust.

Therein lies the problem; when manufacturers advertise products like 9 stop filters they have many wonderful images to illustrate it's use. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it's kinda like the old saying "if the only tool you have is a hammer then you'd better hope that the problem is a nail". Sure - you CAN take nice photos using that filter - but whether its the photo you WANT to take is a different story. I'd rather have a toolbox of tools that allow me to capture the image the I want to -- not be forced into creating the only image that I could with the tools I have.

I shoot a lot of low-light land/sea-scapes and my Veri-ND is on for the majority of them (at some point anyway). Sometimes I'm attenuating by 8 stops - sometimes 2 stops - sometimes none at all - sometimes I'm varying the attenuation DURING the exposure.

During twilight what kind of exposures are you capable of getting with your variable filter?

Pretty much anything I need (in combination with ISO and aperture settings). Case in points: (click for much better view)

0.3 Sec:



2 Minutes:



5 minutes:



16 Minutes:

I might consider going down that road myself, but unfortunately with a cheaper end filter, but its a staring point for me :-)

Thanks

Davie

It's a tough one; one one hand a budget is a budget, but on the other hand, in photography, the cheap lens/filter often costs the most in the long run because you end up buying twice. Keep in mind too that you'll also need a good tripod - remote release (pref with times) - and software that allows you to stack multiple images (each time you double the number of images in a stack it's like adding another stop of ND filtering) (this image was make up of 32 sequential images)

[Donald]

Offer to buy him a pint at the local and I'm sure he'd show you his Vari-ND!

Buy me a pint and I'll show you anything you want!!

Davie - This is probably not the sort of advice you're wanting, but I'd venture to say it's the sort to take on board and think about.

I know you want to go for long exposures and want to go straight in there for a very dark ND. However, as Colin wrote, you do get what you pay for. With the less-expensive makes, you are very likely to get colour distortion/shifts which you then have to work at in post-processing to correct. But even then (and I know I'm not the greatest post-processor in the world) you can struggle to get that look that you saw in your head when you were capturing the scene.

With something like the Singh Ray Vari ND, yes the price is a bit eye-watering, but the results are perfect. All colours come up the way they should.

So, the advice is - Ask yourself the question. Do you want to dive straight in there now and buy what you can afford and maybe be very disappointed with the results and know that you need to save for the product that will produce the goods for you, or do you hold off for now and commit yourself to saving for one of the more expensive (not necessarily just Singh Ray, although I think it is the best), but higher quality products?

If you're anything like me, you're the sort of person who when they decide they want something, they want it now. But photography has taught me to change that behaviour and learn to wait until I can get the thing that I want, rather than something that's not so good.

[landscaper]

Colin,

More great photos thank you for showing them :-)

I will get some of mine up soon enough and hope they are liked!

Donald, If I pass by i am more than happy to buy you a pint!!

This is the problem i now have now guys , as a temporary solution if i was just to stack images can this work? Its something I have never done before but I do have the software for this (Photoshop/Lightroom).

I do have some Hoya Filters (Polarisor and NDx8)and Cokin Graduated filters (I did initially consider just getting ND filters but decided against it because light might still get in behind the filters), and they are fine for things like rivers where I don't need a long exposures like for the stuff I want to do. When I tried them at the sea they just didn't cut it for me.

Again, good for its own thing.

I don't quite see myself spending that much on a filter that you have, but I do see where you are coming from.

There is a local photographic shop which has a great rep in selling 2nd hand stuff, maybe that's something i should now consider just to get the quality I will need?

Cheers

Davie

[Colin Southern]

Buy me a pint and I'll show you anything you want!!

Did you hear the one about the Scotsman who found a fly in his pint? He saw last seen holding it by the wings and shouting "Spit it out - SPIT IT OUT!!!:

(Be sure to tell that one to John and Jan!)

[Colin Southern]

Colin,

More great photos thank you for showing them :-)

I will get some of mine up soon enough and hope they are liked!

No worries Davie,

The big "problem" is that past a certain point we have to start talking image specifics rather than general concepts; in terms of exposure length it's a combination of ISO / aperture / attenuation / motion effect desired / dynamic range of scene - and other things; the only "trick" is experience to know the causes / effect / consequences of the techniques and settings that you use -- and the only way to get that experience is to plan/talk it through with others (like here) and then go shoot something - and then work through the result you got - then rinse and repeat.

My attitude towards filters is a little different in that if I'm going to spend thousands on cameras and lenses - and tripods - and releases - and lighting etc, why risk bringing the whole lot to it's knees by not having the right filters available?

You could try for the likes of a 2nd hand Singh-Ray Vari-ND, but I doubt you'll find any -- most would probably say "you can have mine ... when you've managed to pry it from my cold dead fingers"! I've got two of them and they're the one type of filter that I just couldn't do without.

[landscaper]

Colin,

Thats a good one ;-)

Im familiar with Aperture/Shutter/ISO and have a decent understanding of it to at least have a fair idea of how I am having to set the camera up, I have done various types of photography (be it limited) but as you say, its all practice and experience.

Motion is something I really do like though and will venture into that side of photography.

My camera isnt top of the range by any means, a Canon 700d, but its a brilliant camera and at the moment it does everything I need it too, its been a great investment so I know what you mean in getting cheap stuff bringing the rest of it down.

Are there other reputable brands for Vari-NDs because Singh-Ray isnt going to happen (for a while anyway!!)

Here are a couple of photos I have done in the past, the sunset ones were with my old camera and taken in Lima Peru, but i didnt really have the experience back then and there is noise, stil, I do like them though :-) The others are more current, I was in a local Bus depot and they allowed me to take photos (next is a local farm as the lambing season is almost upon us!!)








































Davie

[bnnrcn]

I like your images My 10 stop ND is a B+W and I have uploaded one of the images taken with it in last December.The image is not edited because I was shooting only JPG at that time and I didn't have a proper editing software.Now I shoot raw+jpg and I can do some edit because I'm learning photoshop.I haven't tried the ND with my new 11-16 lens because it is still cold early in the mornings and at sunsets here.But I will be shooting this spring and summer.When I joined CIC I realized that I was weak and I put a side my lenses and filters and I started reading the tutorials and following the forums.I also realized that I needed better equipment and I bought a new tripod and some lenses.So,now I feel in better condition and all I need is practising a lot and carrying on learning.So,I don't now how much new you are in photography,but if you feel weak I advice you to do the same,read the tutorials and follow the forums,you learn a lot here.Technical knowledge is more important than good equipment and filters if you are really new in photography.You can buy some new lenses and filters in time,when your budget lets you do it

[bnnrcn]

Davie ,in addition to my post above,I would recommend you to have a look at the 'wide angle lenses' in the tutorials of CIC,there are some photos taken with wide angle lenses there and those might give you an idea

[Colin Southern]

Are there other reputable brands for Vari-NDs because Singh-Ray isnt going to happen (for a while anyway!!)

Yes - there are other brands. Some swear by them - some swear at them. I haven't used any other than Singh-Ray, so can't really comment on them. Comments I have heard regarding the "cheaper alternatives" reflect colour casts and blotchy attenuation nearing the max attenuation setting.

Here are a couple of photos I have done in the past, the sunset ones were with my old camera and taken in Lima Peru, but i didnt really have the experience back then and there is noise, stil, I do like them though :-) The others are more current, I was in a local Bus depot and they allowed me to take photos (next is a local farm as the lambing season is almost upon us!!)

Looks like the bug has bitten you

I'll pass 3 suggestions your way ...

1. I don't think your current "squarish" crop flatters your images; generally for this kind of thing the more "panoramic" it is the better it looks. I normally aim for a minimum of a 2:1 aspect ratio - sometimes up to 3:1 eg



to



To even ...



And on the customer's wall ...



I normally crop off top and bottom areas that aren't strong enough to justify remaining there and then stretch the image to obtain the final aspect ratio.

2. Generally we want our eyes to follow a certain "flow" through an image. And keep in mind too that our eyes are drawn to whatever is brightest and what the brain recognises. In your images this is the bright/prominent watermark that you're placing in the bottom right-hand area. For me (and many others) this yanks the eye away from the desired flow and effectively ruins the image.

If you're unconvinced about how others feel about them, take a look at a survey I setup a while back:

Question about Watermarks

3. Regarding noise. Yes - I can see a bit creeping in there, but all is not lost. Photoshop's dust and scratches filter can be very effective as can a small surface blur. Duplicate the layer first and then change the opacity if you need finer control.

Hope this helps

[landscaper]

Binnur,

I like your photo you did a good job of it :-) I still havent decided on any filter yet but i will at some point in the near future, i wont commit until im sure!!

This is a really good site and will have a good look at all the tutorials, and of course take any advise on board :-)

Colin,

Thank you for these tips, the funny thing is i thought they were better like that, but im starting out so its all a learning curve for me, having siad that i really like the way you have done yours, they look really professional :-)

This is something I can work on in future, it seems like there are so many different things to consider when out shooting and post processing, its a bit overloading at times, but I will get there, its a hobby I love and always want to improve :-)

Oh, and the bug has bit ;-)

Cheers

Davie

[Colin Southern]

Colin,

Thank you for these tips, the funny thing is i thought they were better like that, but im starting out so its all a learning curve for me, having siad that i really like the way you have done yours, they look really professional :-)

This is something I can work on in future, it seems like there are so many different things to consider when out shooting and post processing, its a bit overloading at times, but I will get there, its a hobby I love and always want to improve :-)

Oh, and the bug has bit ;-)

Cheers

Davie

You're welcome.

I'm glad that mine look professional -- on the days that I'm shooting or printing professionally, that's definitely a good thing!

Nothing says that anything I do is the "right" way of doing anything -- but it works for me and my style; I guess if that's a style that others want to gravitate towards then my suggestions might help them achieve that.

Shooting and processing are really just Part A and Part B of photography; generally, post-processing follows the 80/20 rule in that we can teach you how to get big effects from relatively simple adjustments.

[landscaper]

Colin,

It must be great doing it professionaly.........im a long long way of that, at the moment its a hobby and im happy to just do the things i want to do at the moment :-)

I guess in time ill develop my own style with advice I take from others and also from myself, its impossible to be totally original so im not afraid of looking at an idea and seeing how I can change it to suit my own style and turn into into a new photo, or thats the theory!!

Are there any lessons you would consider I should look at at this point?

Cheers

Davie

[Colin Southern]

Colin,

It must be great doing it professionaly.........im a long long way of that, at the moment its a hobby and im happy to just do the things i want to do at the moment :-)

I guess in time ill develop my own style with advice I take from others and also from myself, its impossible to be totally original so im not afraid of looking at an idea and seeing how I can change it to suit my own style and turn into into a new photo, or thats the theory!!

Are there any lessons you would consider I should look at at this point?

Cheers

Davie

Hi Davie,

One may not have professional aspirations - but many want to get professional results. Nothing wrong with that - and very attainable by most - but it always requires knowledge - and it often requires an equipment investment to widen the range of opportunities that it's possible to capture so that they include the ones that the 'tog wants to create.

In terms of lessons, my suggestion is to pop along to kelbyone.com and sign up - then sit back and absorb. You'll find it incredibly inspiring and educational.