Thoughts of a first-time mFT user - Panasonic GX7

[inkista]

Shadowman, if you need to see sets of Comic-Con images taken with mft, I've got two here,

2013
https://www.flickr.com/photos/inkist...7634867766378/

2012
https://www.flickr.com/photos/inkist...7630656708844/

but it probably won't make you happy; I'm not into the cosplay babes , and I've found pretty much the same issues you have. I'm bumping my G3 up to iso 3200 in most panels, because I'm shooting with the 45-200 OIS.

[Shadowman]

Shadowman, if you need to see sets of Comic-Con images taken with mft, I've got two here,

2013
https://www.flickr.com/photos/inkist...7634867766378/

2012
https://www.flickr.com/photos/inkist...7630656708844/

but it probably won't make you happy; I'm not into the cosplay babes , and I've found pretty much the same issues you have. I'm bumping my G3 up to iso 3200 in most panels, because I'm shooting with the 45-200 OIS.

Kathy,

Examples were great, sure no cosplay babes but you included Anthony Bourdain so there was still excitement.

[Shadowman]

Thanks John.

One other comment from him I remember when I was getting frustrated with controlling the camera was that he would use ISO to make it go where he wanted. Pretty obvious but I hate digging through menus so frustrations continued.

Curious cameras E-PL1's. They are addictive after a fashion and also probably as intended encourage people to move up a model at some point.

John
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I have a friend who has the EPL-3 and she loves it. Not sure I'm ready to upgrade yet, still getting used to mine.

[ajohnw]

Things seem to be going round in circles on noise. Some switch to Sony sensors for a while, goes down a bit, switch back to Panasonic and it goes back up a bit.

The only tests I have seen that are any use are on dpreview. They test jpg's with what look to be lowish tone levels and then raw and pass it through adobe with noise sliders set to zero. All it really shows is that some don't turn off noise in jpg's or maybe adobe use a different tone curve.

Kathu's shots are interesting but all on the small side. Reduction and noise removal software can make a big difference.

This is the other shot I posted denoised. 25600. I can probably do a little better now I am used to the software I used. Also found another lot that I haven't really used yet.

http://www.23hq.com/ajohnw/photo/16020732/original

John
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[Shadowman]

Things seem to be going round in circles on noise. Some switch to Sony sensors for a while, goes down a bit, switch back to Panasonic and it goes back up a bit.

The only tests I have seen that are any use are on dpreview. They test jpg's with what look to be lowish tone levels and then raw and pass it through adobe with noise sliders set to zero. All it really shows is that some don't turn off noise in jpg's or maybe adobe use a different tone curve.

Kathu's shots are interesting but all on the small side. Reduction and noise removal software can make a big difference.

This is the other shot I posted denoised. 25600. I can probably do a little better now I am used to the software I used. Also found another lot that I haven't really used yet.

http://www.23hq.com/ajohnw/photo/16020732/original

John
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When I first purchased the EPL-1 I set the in-camera noise reduction to standard, never expecting to set ISO above 200. I just changed the setting to high and it takes a good minute for the camera to complete processing. The images look good and they weren't shot in extremely low lighting, so more experimentation to follow. I have used the camera in low light settings and noise is worse in dark areas, sky areas clean up well with post processing.

[Shadowman]

These shots are about three years old.
f/3.5, ISO 200, 1/6sec, handheld, 14mm

[ajohnw]

As for the "effect" in your posted image; I see lens flare and keystoning.

The 12-50mm took that shot. I should mention that it's, video optimised and resolution wise probably one of their worst. It's often being sold with the E-M1 so worth mentioning in case some one buys one. Don't get me wrong though it's just that at 100% res which is a pretty huge image at 16mp some slight fuzzy might be seen.

I went for a 7 mile walk today. One thing I hoped to see was a rare for the uk flower. Found one and even carted a rather heavy macro lens around. Daren't get it out as rain was coming down in sheets at the time. The 12-50mm and camera is weather and dust sealed but didn't dare get that out either.

For people in the UK my Troop Heritage canvas bag passed. Content dry but outer canvas damp. Now why can't camera bag manufacturers add a waterproof lining to camera bags. My only beef with the bag is that it weighs 1kg dry but thick robust canvas isn't a light weight material so fair enough really. Think I am going to wax the the canvas - I'm sure it became heavier when it got wet but haven't walked much over winter. The bag will manage a dslr and a couple of lenses not just m 4/3.. I stuff my things in thick woolly hats - easier to get stuff in and out and a lot less fiddly than the usual foam bits and pieces and bags etc.

By the way if anyone goes to the head of the Thames be aware. It's dry and the river actually starts 3 miles "down stream". It seem it's been like that for a long long time. The spring there dried up ages ago. Bit of a none event.

John
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[thequacksoflife]

Shadowman, if you need to see sets of Comic-Con images taken with mft, I've got two here,

2013
https://www.flickr.com/photos/inkist...7634867766378/

2012
https://www.flickr.com/photos/inkist...7630656708844/

but it probably won't make you happy; I'm not into the cosplay babes , and I've found pretty much the same issues you have. I'm bumping my G3 up to iso 3200 in most panels, because I'm shooting with the 45-200 OIS.

BOO HISS on Babes.......

and Kathy you know that you just NEED that 35-100 f2.8 or 42.5 f1.2......

seriously the new 15 f1.7 MAY find its way into my bag to keep the ISO lower in churches etc.

[inkista]

Manfred, my used GX-7 has arrived , and I think I may have the solution for your zooming-in issue, but it will require getting out of pinpoint AF mode, and using a slightly larger AF area.

1). Change your AF mode setting from Pinpoint to 1-Area, but do NOT hit Set.
2). Click the down button. Scroll either wheel to adjust the size of the AF area to the smallest possible. Optionally, use the touchscreen to change its placement.
3). Hit Set.

Now, you'll have something similar to a single-point AF on a dSLR, but if you have the shutter button half-pressed (or whichever button you've set for AF-ON), and you move the manual focus ring, if you have MF Assist on, then the magnification is tripped. If you're using a manual focus lens, pushing the back wheel (like a button) will trip the magnification (assuming you've got Shoot w/o Lens set to ON).

See why I sometimes say these menus are demented?

Also, to preserve battery life, if you go to the [Wrench]C menu, page 7, and select Eye Sensor, if you turn LVF/Monitor Auto to OFF, then the LCD won't turn on, and the EVF will only turn on when you bring it up to your eye. The only drawback is that if you want to use the LCD, you can only turn it back on by reversing this setting using the EVF.

Now if I could only figure out why I'd want to use electronic shutter instead of silent mode...

[ajohnw]

That eye sensor aspect can be important Kathy. If the screen or viewfinder is left on so is the sensor and that can cause it to get warm and increase noise.

Not sure how Panasonics can be set but there is a button by the EVF on an E-M5. I use that to select the rear screen and the eye sensor to activate the camera screen off plus a long "auto off" time. In quotes as I don't know what that actually does. When that activates I have to 1/2 press the shutter to bring it up again. It's also handy to be able to activate the touch screen easily - mainly for the touch, focus on that and shoot facility. You may be able to do that via a small touch area on the screen itself.

Small focus area? Personally even though some seem to rate it maybe because they have it a larger one can be better option in some cases. It's easier to cover a hard contrast boundary with a larger area without decentering the camera so much. Not that much contrast is actually needed eg - the boundaries between petals on a buttercup can be detected. I suspect people new to these cameras will have to forget dslr aspects in this area. On the other hand for something like macro work an adjustable sized focus area might be useful. Face recognition will sort out a subjects eyes. User modes can be rather useful for these sort of options.

Continuing the Olympus Panasonic war a dealer was telling me recently that Olympus are currently doing rather well. He didn't know I owned one either.

John
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[Manfred M]

Manfred, my used GX-7 has arrived , and I think I may have the solution for your zooming-in issue, but it will require getting out of pinpoint AF mode, and using a slightly larger AF area.

1). Change your AF mode setting from Pinpoint to 1-Area, but do NOT hit Set.
2). Click the down button. Scroll either wheel to adjust the size of the AF area to the smallest possible. Optionally, use the touchscreen to change its placement.
3). Hit Set.

Now, you'll have something similar to a single-point AF on a dSLR, but if you have the shutter button half-pressed (or whichever button you've set for AF-ON), and you move the manual focus ring, if you have MF Assist on, then the magnification is tripped. If you're using a manual focus lens, pushing the back wheel (like a button) will trip the magnification (assuming you've got Shoot w/o Lens set to ON.

See why I sometimes say these menus are demented?

Also, to preserve battery life, if you go to the [Wrench]C menu, page 7, and select Eye Sensor, if you turn LVF/Monitor Auto to OFF, then the LCD won't turn on, and the EVF will only turn on when you bring it up to your eye. The only drawback is that if you want to use the LCD, you can only turn it back on by reversing this setting using the EVF.

Now if I could only figure out why I'd want to use electronic shutter instead of silent mode...

Thanks Kathy; I had figured both of those out myself and do use those techniques.

The main issue I have is that I prefer locking the focus spot to the centre of the screen and no matter what I do, it seems to get out of position. The Nikons have a mechanical switch that lets me lock things in place, but I've had no luck locking on the GX7. I've set it, deactivated the touch screen, etc, but the darn thing still drifts out of position.

Electronic shutter with / without sound - I had the same thought. The only explanation I can think of is that it's there for the infrequent shooter to let them know that the picture has been taken.

[ajohnw]

Thanks Kathy; I had figured both of those out myself and do use those techniques.

The main issue I have is that I prefer locking the focus spot to the centre of the screen and no matter what I do, it seems to get out of position. The Nikons have a mechanical switch that lets me lock things in place, but I've had no luck locking on the GX7. I've set it, deactivated the touch screen, etc, but the darn thing still drifts out of position.

Electronic shutter with / without sound - I had the same thought. The only explanation I can think of is that it's there for the infrequent shooter to let them know that the picture has been taken.

If AFF or AFC both do this after you have selected a single central AF point they are trying to track when there is no need. I have this problem on the E-M5 in continuous focusing and a difficult focusing situations - macro. No problem at all with moving object with the camera panning. This video runs through the options on Panasonic cameras but doesn't fully exploit multi point or mention the possible problems with tiny AF areas - also locks exposure when the camera is out of focus. I mostly use exposure lock and then the shutter button for AF and restrict continuous to when subjects are moving - actually though it's fine on what might be called "normal" subjects. When shooting macro the tracking incorporated in continuous often causes the camera to lock on something other than what I want. It would be fine if the damm camera accepted that I could see what the camera was pointed at and wanted to focus on it and just stuck with the central square.

Rather noddy video and doesn't seem to have the tracking problem but that aspect not really tested. You might find AFF turns of some of the tracking functionality but I have read it just augments it by making use of colour and is very good for video. Many things don't just move and fast exposures are needed to freeze motion so in real terms while continuous focus variations on on dslr's can be useful the same thing can be done with independent exposure and focus locking. Button for one and the shutter for the other. Many shots just need the focus and shoot shutter button any way and compensation is far more important.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYfXmlQsW1c

Edit - sound - there is probably an option to delay exposure until the subject is in focus. An area I haven't tried yet but sound may help tell people that the shot has actually been taken in some situations. And here''s me having used these cameras for well over 2 years now.

John
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[Manfred M]

John - I expect I have not explained the problem I am having clearly enough. The video you link to does not cover the functionality I am having issues with.

I tend to do virtually all of my shooting using a single point focus; I focus on it and then recompose before taking the picture. I find the various "automated" focus modes rather unreliable and have found that my work flow works very well for me and results in very few focus misses. I tend to be someone who does a lot of my shots with a narrow DoF, so nailing the focus well is very important.

The GX7 does have this mode, but has the annoying issue that it pops into a centre magnification mode during the focus process. One can set the duration of this magnification to be fairly short, but I have not found any way of turning this very annoying feature off.

The word around that Kathy mentioned is to use the centre focus area, but to reduce it to the smallest size possible. The problem I have run into is I have not found any way of locking it into place so it does not move. Both of my DSLRs have a similar feature; but I can lock the focus point to where I want it and it will not move. Unfortunately, the GX7 does not appear to have a lock feature and it is all too easy to move the focus point by accident (for instance touching the touch screen or hitting the multi-selector button). All I want to do is "permanently" lock it to the centre of the screen and to not have it move.

[thequacksoflife]

All I want to do is "permanently" lock it to the centre of the screen and to not have it move.

I'm confused as I do what Kathy says..... and it doesn't move.

once you change the size "disp reset" sets the focal point to the set of the screen.....

i do turn touch screen off......

EDIT

I actually adjust the size differently to Kathy.

1. turn touch screen on.
2. adjust size using the scroll
3. disp reset to move the focal back to the centre.
4. turn off touch screen.

I tend to shoot single focus point

[inkista]

If you have the touchscreen on, all you have to do is touch the screen and hit DISP to recenter.

I agree it can be a PITA if you're used to dSLRs where the center point never roams. But I do sometimes like to move the AF point, and the touchscreen is faster and more intuitive for me to do that vs., say, my 50D's joystick. Otherwise, I just get really good at the key combos to get the AF point back to the center if I've accidentally moved it.

Manfred, how do you have wrenchC/3/Direct Focus Area set? I think that's the one where you can tell it to use/ignore the 4-way buttons to move the AF point.

[ajohnw]

John - I expect I have not explained the problem I am having clearly enough. The video you link to does not cover the functionality I am having issues with.

I tend to do virtually all of my shooting using a single point focus; I focus on it and then recompose before taking the picture. I find the various "automated" focus modes rather unreliable and have found that my work flow works very well for me and results in very few focus misses. I tend to be someone who does a lot of my shots with a narrow DoF, so nailing the focus well is very important.

The GX7 does have this mode, but has the annoying issue that it pops into a centre magnification mode during the focus process. One can set the duration of this magnification to be fairly short, but I have not found any way of turning this very annoying feature off.

The word around that Kathy mentioned is to use the centre focus area, but to reduce it to the smallest size possible. The problem I have run into is I have not found any way of locking it into place so it does not move. Both of my DSLRs have a similar feature; but I can lock the focus point to where I want it and it will not move. Unfortunately, the GX7 does not appear to have a lock feature and it is all too easy to move the focus point by accident (for instance touching the touch screen or hitting the multi-selector button). All I want to do is "permanently" lock it to the centre of the screen and to not have it move.

I haven't had that problem Manfred. I have had magnified view pop up for no apparent reason a few times. I'm not sure why but suspect shock or something has made the camera think that the lens focus ring has been touched. One answer for you may be to turn manual focus assist off. Must admit I hardly if ever use that as the basic camera AF is fine. It just needs a bit of thought about placement of the square and once achieved it can be locked with the shutter button. That's generally how I shoot having in some case locked the exposure with the AEL button previously. There are several options on what that button can do.

I did have problems with the focus square moving around on a Pen but can't for the life of me can't think why. Basically I don't move it and have the central area set up. I haven't noticed any problems with the touch screen focus and shoot either but I haven't used it much. It's probably of most use in some studio type situation or when shots need to be taken without anyone noticing. It's impressive. The camera has some guidance as to where and just does it.

I just picked up the E-M5 to see just how I might move the focus point about. I suspect I had problems with the Pen's because I had to use the multiway to control various things with the camera at eye level. I don't have to do that on the E-M5 so no chance of pressing the wrong button. i can reprogram the multiway but believe I have it set to defaults. AF area position, flash mode, exposure and the info pane. I don't use any of these with the camera at eye level. While playing around I just found that if I press the info button the histogram disappears and clipped areas are shown in the view instead. Full of surprises. I had read about this feature and didn't understand what it was all about - couldn't see how to do it. The manuals are NVG probably because there are so many options. Dpreview did a special how to get the best out of your E-M5 page and even that didn't help with this clipped area option as the menu names seem to have changed. There may be similar pages for the GX7.

As firmware usually has some common features between Olympus and Panasonic one option you could probably use to fix inadvertent square movement is to program a button to home it. The home position can be specified. I sometimes wonder if an offset square would be best.

I personally think that the key to using these cameras is careful thought about just how the buttons are programmed. I vary that as I play around. For instance at the moment I have, ISO, digital converter - I meant to try in macro but haven't yet and focus peaking which I find is only of much use for manually focusing fast lenses. Not much use for a 500mm F8 mirror lens but when I program for a 2x view as well it may be. No exposure lock which I would normally want but as I intended to use the histogram I shouldn't really need it - now I find there is a better option than the histogram anyway. As I settle on settings for this and that they will be put into mysets. This set isn't bad for most shooting really but the focus peaking button could be used for something else as I know when I have a manual lens on. A button to toggle continuous / single AF would be useful but I don't think that option is available. It's easy to set in the menu or via the multiway though.

Which buttons for what? Well the movie button is usually well positioned. Waste of good real estate so I use the mode dial for movies. That currently selects the 2x digital converter. Used to be AEL. The other button by the shutter release is always set for ISO. I think the camera can be set for press and hold down to change settings but I use press - change - press again as the shutter release also clears that. The other function button is set to engage focus peaking while it's held down.

Yes it is because these cameras are not dslr's. They offer a number of things which currently dslr's can't offer. 2+ years and I am still messing around - mainly because I bought a macro lens and found out how to enable focus peaking. Before that I settled for ISO, AEL and focus lock via the shutter button. Part of this was down to using the levels display which knocks the histogram on the head on an E-M5. Not sure if the show clipped areas has the same problem as the levels can be very useful when shooting very wide angle.

Magnified view for manual lenses for my intended use has proved disappointing. Rather a lot is needed to achieve a truly pixel sharp focus. I reckon you will find you need 7x for that. Maybe more. It's also a bit iffy with the usual slow lenses and my impression is that the camera does a better job. I do have an 50-200mm F2.8/3.5 zoom. That's more positive as would be expected.

No real focus problems on any shots other than macro and success rates on that for a 1st go were acceptable. My favourite for this problem is zooming to 50mm and not closing down enough for the depth of field I need. I have done that a couple of times now. I like them to be sharp at 100% size. That lens is F6.3 wide open at 50mm. One other "problem" is the AF itself. Say I am using a lens at 300mm near wide open. Dear old af focuses on things not into them so I may not get an even depth of field either side of the subject. Few people would notice and phase AF does the same thing anyway..

John
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[Manfred M]

I'm confused as I do what Kathy says..... and it doesn't move.

once you change the size "disp reset" sets the focal point to the set of the screen.....

i do turn touch screen off......

EDIT

I actually adjust the size differently to Kathy.

1. turn touch screen on.
2. adjust size using the scroll
3. disp reset to move the focal back to the centre.
4. turn off touch screen.

I tend to shoot single focus point

This is exactly what I have done, but the camera seems to set the focus point to a different location. This happens regardless of my using the "true" centre point focus or the smallest rectangular focus area. Hit the wrong button, while holding or moving the camera and the focus point shifts.

I think I may have fixed this issue by turing the "set direct focus" to "off", but it seems to have created a number of new and exciting "side effects:...

[ajohnw]

I'm confused as I do what Kathy says..... and it doesn't move.

once you change the size "disp reset" sets the focal point to the set of the screen.....

i do turn touch screen off......

EDIT

I actually adjust the size differently to Kathy.

1. turn touch screen on.
2. adjust size using the scroll
3. disp reset to move the focal back to the centre.
4. turn off touch screen.

I tend to shoot single focus point

Are you sure you can't program a button to adjust the square and then adjust while looking through the viewfinder? I'm like Manfred touch screens in some ways aren't my favourite.

The way I have my touch screen set up is just to allow the touch shoot function. If I select view via the rear screen there is a virtual button to enable the entire screen. Setting to get that are touch screen off. This means that I can't directly use the super control panel as Olympus call it but what is needed can be quickly bought up in other ways - the multiway for instance, iso button also shows settings. The super control panel then just becomes a way of viewing all camera settings.

The thing that amuses me is that both makes of camera have had useful things put in that later disappear. I'm not looking forwards to an E-M1 in some ways as I will have to go through all of this again. Touch screens are great until there is a blazing sun behind. Why oh why did Olympus drop the menu in the viewfinder option. Not needed yet but one day I am sure it will be.

John
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[thequacksoflife]

This is exactly what I have done, but the camera seems to set the focus point to a different location. This happens regardless of my using the "true" centre point focus or the smallest rectangular focus area. Hit the wrong button, while holding or moving the camera and the focus point shifts.

I think I may have fixed this issue by turing the "set direct focus" to "off", but it seems to have created a number of new and exciting "side effects:...

I've never had the problem you describe

just checked i have direct focus off.

[thequacksoflife]

Are you sure you can't program a button to adjust the square and then adjust while looking through the viewfinder? I'm like Manfred touch screens in some ways aren't my favourite.


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i tend to turn mine off !!