Thoughts of a first-time mFT user - Panasonic GX7

[inkista]

I hate menu diving so much I leave the touchscreen on. Easiest way to get from here to there in the damn menus and quick control panels. Now if I could only find a way to get that fast panel up without having to hit DISP so many times...

[thequacksoflife]

I hate menu diving so much I leave the touchscreen on. Easiest way to get from here to there in the damn menus and quick control panels. Now if I could only find a way to get that fast panel up without having to hit DISP so many times...

well I use QMENU (the QMENU on the Fujis is better) a lot and I leave the "cursor" over the suff I use most in the menus. Indeed on the c spanner it is left at touch screen! Once set up I don't need to delve that often.

I've found with the GX7 that the focus point "moves" if I don't turn the touch screen off. On a G or GH series its not so much of an issue as you can just flip the screen.

[ajohnw]

I just refreshed my memory on the GX7. I do keep an eye on Panasonic but am very unlikely to ever change.

Looks like I may as well not comment on how I set my camera up. The GX7 is like a Pen on steroids. It can't be set up as per my OM-5 and neither can a Pen for the simple reason that they wouldn't sell any dslr types. Probably a bit of an extreme comment. It does have twin thumb wheels which is a big help. I wouldn't buy one - Pen's gave me an aversion to changing ISO settings via the multi way. My impression then seems to drift along the lines of the cameras being largely aimed at facebook users. Lots of toys but not all that much thought aimed at photographers.

John
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[thequacksoflife]

Looks like I may as well not comment on how I set my camera up. The GX7 is like a Pen on steroids. It can't be set up as per my OM-5 and neither can a Pen for the simple reason that they wouldn't sell any dslr types. Probably a bit of an extreme comment. It does have twin thumb wheels which is a big help. I wouldn't buy one - Pen's gave me an aversion to changing ISO settings via the multi way. My impression then seems to drift along the lines of the cameras being largely aimed at facebook users. Lots of toys but not all that much thought aimed at photographers.

John
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confused. on GX7 you just press the ISO button........ and you can twiddle using the wheel....... I don't see any difference to how I did it on the d300......

extreme? well I wouldn't buy an EM5 .... I would an EM1!

[Manfred M]

My impression then seems to drift along the lines of the cameras being largely aimed at facebook users. Lots of toys but not all that much thought aimed at photographers.

Unfortunately, that can be said for a lot of cameras, including entry level DSLRs.

I think that the camera manufacturers are in a bit of a bind; there are a lot more "casaul shooters"; the facebook users, as you refer to them and they are likely to use these cameras in fully automated mode most of the time. They are probably a larger part of the target market than the "serious photographers", so the designers (driven by marketing department requirements) try to be everything to everybody, and fail miserably at doing so.

[ajohnw]

confused. on GX7 you just press the ISO button........ and you can twiddle using the wheel....... I don't see any difference to how I did it on the d300......

extreme? well I wouldn't buy an EM5 .... I would an EM1!

Sounds like you do have some taste then. My problem with an E-M1 is I might find I loose something I like in the E-M5. Frankly if some one wants a light small camera and retain dslr type facilities with some useful additions the E-M5 is rather hard to beat. The E-M1 doesn't it's bigger. On lightness with kit Olympus have a big advantage. The E-M5 could have looked like a GX7 but Oly stuck the viewfinder in the obvious place. It even has a grip bulge but doesn't really need it. I was using cameras when people were moaning about battery bulges and reviewers were saying it's something to hold the camera with. The sad thing about the E-M5 is that I suspect it's gone and an E-M10 probably looses a lot against the 1 and may not even match the 5.

Seriously looking at the review ISO is locked to the multiway. That drove me up the wall using Pens. It's a personal thing I suppose. I feel it should be easy to change everything via the viewfinder - a big advantage mirrorless can offer. I started with the E-PL1 - bought a viewfinder - great but still like using a compact. Went to an E-P3, great, had a thumb wheel but still a bit compact like even with it's buttons. That gave me a lot of confidence in the format so bought an E-M5 rather than upgrade a Canon. Prior to this I had given up on serious cameras and mostly shot a compact but as the pixel counts have gone up these have got worse and worse. I gained an aversion for any use of menu's on rear screens while shooting from that experience and really missed the demise of viewfinders. Also IR focusing too actually. A real retrograde step.

One thing that gets me about both makes is that things get added and then disappear. As a for instance on Pen's the entire menu system can be driven via the viewfinder - not a nice experience but if too much sun about better than nothing. Then comes reviewers. I read a comment that Oly don't leave much headroom for highlights in raw. They might react to that but given that clipping can be seen in the viewfinder why leave much room at all. Actually given people general feeling on metering why don't they all do it this way. It's much easier to use than a histogram. Some things do come back though. One I have noticed recently is highlight and lowlight spot metering. Any good - pass, haven't used it yet. Not in the E-M5 either.

Kathy better watch out for a Canon with a tft type screen image projected into the viewfinder. The answer to mirrorless. Be interesting to see how it works out over time.

John
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[ajohnw]

Unfortunately, that can be said for a lot of cameras, including entry level DSLRs.

I think that the camera manufacturers are in a bit of a bind; there are a lot more "casaul shooters"; the facebook users, as you refer to them and they are likely to use these cameras in fully automated mode most of the time. They are probably a larger part of the target market than the "serious photographers", so the designers (driven by marketing department requirements) try to be everything to everybody, and fail miserably at doing so.

That's true Manfred even with dslr's at all levels but only some one like Gates might buy a 1DX for casual shooting. My impression though is that at the Pen type level there will always be some features left out or none optimum to tempt people to go for "better" models especially if they start going further into "photography". The fact is that by far the most casual photography now is via phones and that has caused the compact market to collapse. It seems bridge aren't doing too badly. Dslr's pass but I suspect an ageing baby boomer etc population is having an effect on that. Innovation is supposed to be one answer to declining markets and that is most definitely going on even though from some points of view many of the new features are questionable. There are several ways of looking at shrinking markets. Say a typical compact sale price was 200 quid. Well if you come up with something fewer but the right number of people will buy at 600 quid all tends to be hunky dory. Then there is a chance that they might buy a few lenses too. Even better. They might also be tempted to go more dslr like - better still. Then they may want a flash gun - Nikon 1 takes the biscuit on that. Oly and Panasonic probably come second but all makes play that game.

John
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[Manfred M]

That's true Manfred even with dslr's at all levels but only some one like Gates might buy a 1DX for casual shooting.

Actually, I suspect Gates would go for a Leica M series or a Hasselblad...

All joking aside; only Canon and Nikon go after the pro market in any series way in the full frame side of things. In the medium format side of things; Mamiya/Leaf, Leica, Phase 1 and Hasselblad are all after that very small niche that uses these digital cameras.

Everyone else is only in the consumer market and quite frankly are looking for customers that want to step up from their smartphone camera. All these brands have some interesting cameras with interesting features and they are in direct competition with the two camera giants; Canon and Nikon.

[thequacksoflife]

The E-M5 could have looked like a GX7 but Oly stuck the viewfinder in the obvious place. It even has a grip bulge but doesn't really need it.

it does need the bulge and it needs a bigger one. I do smile at the number of people who rave about its ergonomics and then say they use the half grip and then don't think it odd that when they change batteries they have to remove said half grip.

I'm sorry but it is nostalgia gone mad, because it looks like an OM4 they think it is good. The OM4 works because it has a totally uncluttered back. it made it much easier to hold

I picked up an EM5 and an EM1 and it was chalk and cheese. My local dealer offered me a near mint EM5 at a cheap second hand price recently and I turned it down. I accept its horses for courses and people have personal preferences but I'm a bit fed up of people ignoring the EM5's flaws. good IQ though.

Curiously I prefer the look of the EM10 to the EM5 because the hump is not as exaggerated.

Seriously looking at the review ISO is locked to the multiway.

Manfred/Kathy am I missing something here? On the GX7 you press ISO (which I did on my d300) and then adjust using a control dial (again something I did on my d300) you can use a control pad if you prefer.

[ajohnw]

Actually, I suspect Gates would go for a Leica M series or a Hasselblad...

All joking aside; only Canon and Nikon go after the pro market in any series way in the full frame side of things. In the medium format side of things; Mamiya/Leaf, Leica, Phase 1 and Hasselblad are all after that very small niche that uses these digital cameras.

Everyone else is only in the consumer market and quite frankly are looking for customers that want to step up from their smartphone camera. All these brands have some interesting cameras with interesting features and they are in direct competition with the two camera giants; Canon and Nikon.

Don't know about that Manfred. There are a surprising number of rather high click count Olympus 4/3 "Pro" cameras about. Makes me wonder if they haven't finished as the E-M1 isn't dear enough. Prior to digital they also did rather well in that general area. Very well even though they went into cameras later than Nikon.

John
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[ajohnw]

it does need the bulge and it needs a bigger one. I do smile at the number of people who rave about its ergonomics and then say they use the half grip and then don't think it odd that when they change batteries they have to remove said half grip.

I'm sorry but it is nostalgia gone mad, because it looks like an OM4 they think it is good. The OM4 works because it has a totally uncluttered back. it made it much easier to hold

I picked up an EM5 and an EM1 and it was chalk and cheese. My local dealer offered me a near mint EM5 at a cheap second hand price recently and I turned it down. I accept its horses for courses and people have personal preferences but I'm a bit fed up of people ignoring the EM5's flaws. good IQ though.

Curiously I prefer the look of the EM10 to the EM5 because the hump is not as exaggerated.



Manfred/Kathy am I missing something here? On the GX7 you press ISO (which I did on my d300) and then adjust using a control dial (again something I did on my d300) you can use a control pad if you prefer.

The bulge is on the right hand side along with a thumb grip so that the camera fits nicely into a right hand.. Even my rather large ones. I never hold the left hand end of a camera as it's not good for stability. I have seen others do that though. I either cradle the camera in it or if a long lens support that or some combination of the two. As the bulge is actually the shape of the camera I can't see how it can interfere with removing the battery.

On the ISO button. It's on the multi way and I find that a pain to use if the viewfinder is being used. I would feel the same about the lower buttons on the GX7 too. The buttons I do use on the 5 are all on the top of the camera so don't interfere with holding it. As I said though having an ISO button on the multi way is one of my phobias. On the other hand even a canon 100D has the ISO button on the top of the camera - the only button it has their apart from the shutter release.

Perhaps this will help



The bulge on the E-M10 is larger and more conventional.

John
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[thequacksoflife]

The bulge is on the right hand side along with a thumb grip so that the camera fits nicely into a right hand.. Even my rather large ones. I never hold the left hand end of a camera as it's not good for stability. I have seen others do that though. I either cradle the camera in it or if a long lens support that or some combination of the two. As the bulge is actually the shape of the camera I can't see how it can interfere with removing the battery.

there is an additional battery grip for the EM5 which is in two parts. One is just an additional hand grip. Some reviewers say they use just that as they find the right hand bulge insufficent (My complaint - hence I like the EM1 which has a fab view finder, much better than the GX7 BTW). When using the additional hand grip you have to remove it to change the battery. They've fixed that on the EM10.

My problem is it didn't feel comfy and I kept pressing buttons unexpectedly (that can happen on the GX7 but less so in my case). A friend said I looked like I was about to drop it all the time. And like you I tend to support the lens with the left hand or cradle it....

On the ISO button. It's on the multi way and I find that a pain to use if the viewfinder is being used.
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ah now I understand what you mean...... until you mentioned the viewfinder being used I was stumped. I've kind of gotten used to where it is. but I guess I'd agree I'd prefer it up top. intriguingly on the GM1 there is a function button on top of the camera you can set to ISO but of course no viewfinder LOL. The GH4 (and GH3) does have an iso button on top and I'll get to play with one Monday.

Don't get me wrong the EM5 is a good camera but reviewers tend to over look its idiosyncracies and issues. I think the same is true of Fuji cameras to a certain extent.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the handling of the EM5...... but then it's why I'd argue that you need to hold the damn thing before you buy it. I actually ntended to buy the EM5.

Now the EM1 is rather sweet!

[ajohnw]

I feel a little the opposite. Largely down to what people are used to and reviewers assuming problems Olympus have made the bulge bigger. The gain as I see it with the E-M5 is that the buttons can be used without disturbing a "normal" style of gripping the camera in the right hand. There is one flaw. The thumb grip is needed to avoid holding the camera and pressing the multiway etc but it slightly fouls one of the function buttons - well it does for me with my size of hands and fingers.

Personally I would ignore comments like it looks like you are going to drop it what ever camera is being tried and make your own mind up. There is also an Olympus - Panasonic thing kicking about with a number of people. The main reason I went for Olympus originally was that unlike Panasonic they are a traditional camera manufacturer and have produced very good optics in the past. This was early days and I also thought that Panasonic would try some NVG lenses which they did. I had also bought a used E-PL1 to try the format out. When I read oh part of the lens wobbles about I checked it with the camera powered up and found that it didn't. I also found that the lens could easily cope with 12mp. A big factor for me is also weight with a few lenses. I did have the Panasonic to 200mm and to 300mm zooms but have swapped them for Olympus but the 200mm one is replaced with the 40-150mm. I don't really have any hang up about either make but chose on my own needs. I did buy a rather expensive Panasonic compact once - heap of junk in some respects. That sort of thing can put people off makes. On the other hand I have used several Olympus film compacts. Always excellent optics and nice to use but eventually break - my E-M5 came with a decent guarantee. I have also come across broken OM's in the dim and distant past. Those were early Japanese SLR's though. I used Nikon then.

Buying an E-M5. Well they are a bit of a bargain at the moment even new but anyone who does that has to resist thinking that they need an E-M1 for a reasonable length of time. Not an easy thing to do. If 2nd hand I would want to know what the shutter count is. Heavy users do buy them, even Pens. My used E-PL1 had 1100 clicks on it bought not all that long after they came out.

John
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[thequacksoflife]

Personally I would ignore comments like it looks like you are going to drop it what ever camera is being tried and make your own mind up.

I did the comment was made after I had made the decision..... but it was interesting to hear. Curiously when I was whiling away the time in Gatwick the other day I picked up an EM5 and my opinions haven't changed. as I say it is important to hold the camera yourself. reviews can tell you only so much don't you think?

TBH the m4/3 cameras that have felt nicest in the hand to me were the G5/G6.

There is also an Olympus - Panasonic thing kicking about with a number of people.

yup it is a bit sad really. Reminds me a bit of the Jason Manford joke where the punchline is that the only time the human race would be reunited is when aliens turns up

as it is there is a Panasonic v Olympus rivalry but we untite in defending m43 The whole beauty of the format is that I have choice if I want to buy an EM1/5 my lenses would still work and vice versa.

The main reason I went for Olympus originally was that unlike Panasonic they are a traditional camera manufacturer and have produced very good optics in the past. This was early days and I also thought that Panasonic would try some NVG lenses which they did.

out of interest what ones where NVG? I can't think of a lemon that I've tried. The one that tends to get stick is the 14-42 that was the kit with the G3 and Kathy will defend that

I went Panasonic with the GF1 because I liked the 20 f1.7.

Buying an E-M5. Well they are a bit of a bargain at the moment even new but anyone who does that has to resist thinking that they need an E-M1 for a reasonable length of time. Not an easy thing to do. If 2nd hand I would want to know what the shutter count is. Heavy users do buy them, even Pens. My used E-PL1 had 1100 clicks on it bought not all that long after they came out.

I'd only buy used from a reliable dealer. There is this tempation to want the latest and greatest don't you think? I know I can be guity of that but I'd agree that a good used EM5 is a good buy (if only you can put up with that naff handling )

anyway interesting discussion and a good thread.

I do like the way on this forum we don't resort to the level of banality/abuse of another well known one

and yes rather too many emoticons

[ajohnw]

I must admit if just carrying the E-M5 it is in my left hand. That's what I have always done. My 5D came with a strap for right hand holding but I just can't get on with it so never use it. Seems to me the strap is an add on as I might drop it carrying that way without it. Especially as it's a heavy camera.

The biggest draw back with M 4/3 at the moment in my view is focusing. It's fine and fast with normal m 4/3 lenses on but add close up gear to one and things get a bit weird. Some of that might be down to me not finding a way of making them focus reliably like this but I suspect not. All down to faster and faster AF performance in all probability rather than leaving a slower precise focus speed available. I get the impression that the macro m 4/3 lens does focus a bit more slowly especially at macro distances. Using 4/3 lenses on an E-M5 is interesting too. The later sonic wave drive types are a bit dubious but some reports suggest the 12-60mm is ok. With the ones I have tried with the earlier drive the tendency seems to be to get it right or the camera deliberately kicks it slightly out of focus so that it obviously is via the viewfinder. Looks like work in progress to me but the E-M1 has phase focusing - doubt if it matches the conventional sort in all respects though.

NVG lenses. One mainly, one of the earlier kit lenses. Afraid I would expect them to try that. Otherwise the seem pretty good. Manfred also agrees with me that the to 200mm is a bit soft. Kathhy wont but perhaps they have upgraded it now anyway.

John
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[thequacksoflife]

The biggest draw back with M 4/3 at the moment in my view is focusing. It's fine and fast with normal m 4/3 lenses on but add close up gear to one and things get a bit weird. Some of that might be down to me not finding a way of making them focus reliably like this but I suspect not. All down to faster and faster AF performance in all probability rather than leaving a slower precise focus speed available. I get the impression that the macro m 4/3 lens does focus a bit more slowly especially at macro distances.

the 45 f2.8 macro was awful on the gf1 not too bad on the GX7. For me it's tracking that is the issue.

NVG lenses. One mainly, one of the earlier kit lenses. Afraid I would expect them to try that. Otherwise the seem pretty good. Manfred also agrees with me that the to 200mm is a bit soft. Kathhy wont but perhaps they have upgraded it now anyway.

John
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whisper it quietly in case Kathy hears but I agree about the 45-200 at 200mm was a little soft. It was ok to 150 tho.

[ajohnw]

the 45 f2.8 macro was awful on the gf1 not too bad on the GX7. For me it's tracking that is the issue.


whisper it quietly in case Kathy hears but I agree about the 45-200 at 200mm was a little soft. It was ok to 150 tho.

I compared it at 150mm with the awful looking Oly 40-150mm at 150mm.

The 60mm Oly macro looks promising but the working distance is a wee bit short. Best trick seems to be to use the set to 1:1 focus and allow it to focus on the subject at a lower magnifications.. I gave up on continuous focus as the tracking gave too many problems too often.

John
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