Photoshop, Lightroom, Elements??

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Originally Posted by Mike Buckley

My wife walks through the kitchen to get from the carport to the living room and vice versa. This happens generally at least twice every day of the workweek. She never cooks in the kitchen. You could and apparently would argue that she is "using" the kitchen when she is walking through it. I wouldn't. The issue that is bothersome is that you and I know you're smart enough to appreciate why I wouldn't.

Similarly, when I import image files into Lightroom, edit them, export them, remove them from the catalog and use no other cataloging capability, I don't feel that I'm using the catalog.

Using that workflow puts me at zero risk of losing any changes made to my images. You can and probably will figure out on your own why that's true. I won't provide those details for the reason explained below.

You have intentionally taken my and others' comments out of context so often including Steve's comment noted above that you seem to have gone far beyond the attempt to be helpful and seem instead to have gotten to the point of wanting to let everyone know that you are "right." This isn't the first time this has happened. Far from it. Sadly, I no longer have any interest in discussing this stuff about Lightroom or anything with you because it's simply not fun being taken out of context when all I'm trying to do is share an idea that others might find helpful.

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Frankly Mike, this kind of BS is just irritating. You made a bunch of inaccurate statements - I called you out on them (politely) - and then you attack back accusing me of being condescending. And now you're continuing the attack.

I don't have time to go over the other inaccuracies right now, so I'll just stick with the catalog thing; you've said in a number of places now that one doesn't have to use the catalog when using LR. Hogwash. Assuming that we're talking about using LR as an editor then you have to import them into the catalog to edit them - they remain in the catalog whilst you're editing them - and you can't delete them from the catalog until after you've finished editing them and you've exported them. That's NOT "not using the catalog". That's using the catalog 100% of the time throughout the entire editing operation.

To use your example, that's like you wife walking into the kitchen - cooking a meal - cleaning up - and then saying that you don't use the kitchen because afterwards you ate the meal in the lounge. Can we stop this rubbish now please; I know you're a big fan of the program but some of these things you're saying just aren't true and are easily dis-proven.

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Originally Posted by Adrian

I'm surprised you find LR clunky to use Colin.

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I'd have to say that my experience with it pretty much mirrors Larry's. I just find the whole program irritating (personally), and I fear for those who use it who aren't tech-savvy enough to work around the hidden dangers of having (by default) all their edits stored in a single database that they think they're safe using just because they've backed it up.

Colin is indisputably correct in pointing out that individual image files that incorporate the edits are safer than a database. However most computing software is now based on either single or relationship data bases and a serious error or data corruption can cause the entire data base to stop functioning. The risks and precautions we should take with lightroom are no more than the risks taken and precautions required with thousands of data base applications including accounting, banking, insurance, payroll, airline booking, retailing, manufacturing, golf handicap system etc etc etc. The risk Colin is talking about for users of lightroom are no greater than a host of other important applications.....It's a scary computer world out there - be careful........:)

I take Colin's point here re the database. LR can have database issues that appear to be related to using the built in photo book publishing software, than can lead to corruption. We have had a thread about this before.

The problem with being solely reliant on third party database software for cataloguing is that we create a dependency when doing so. I found over tie when I was reliant on Aperture, that the inexorable upgrade path started to cause problems with old files in the archive. I am quite familiar with both C sharp and SQL for example, but I am wary these days of reliance on any third party database tool where I cannot see the structure.

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Originally Posted by MariaMaria

I am preparing to buy an Adobe photo editing software (My trial expired, bummer). Do I really need Photoshop or will Lightroom/Elements be enough? Or is there a different platform that works just as good or better?

Thanks!

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My original question (above) was meant to be general and not involve the very techy (sometimes "nitpicky") responses. Again, I am looking for general responses to my posts as I am not tech oriented at this part in my photo-journey. I simply wanted information regarding if PS was an essential tool for ME given my photo needs (again not very tech-oriented so do not need access to all the possible bells and whistles) and it seems like it is not. It appears that a combination of LR5 and Elements will suit MY needs just fine (at least for now :)). I apologize if my original post was not specific enough regarding my PP needs, I will be sure to make it so in the future.

I have my answer, thank you all for your posts. Everyone can be friends now :)

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I have my answer, thank you all for your posts. Everyone can be friends now

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Good response, Maria, and I also think you have made a sensible choice. Heck, if it doesn't work for you you can always change your mind :)

Dave

Maria - I think you have hit the nail on the head here.

You need an application that works for YOU. Something that is too complex is just going to be overkill and may not get used, just as something that does not meet your needs because it cannot handle what you want to accomplish will end up frustrating you as well. Finding the right balance can be tricky. If you outgrow whatever you end up going with, there are other options out there that you can upgrade to, should you need to.

I would suggest that you choose one or the other; not both right now. Once you are comfortable with whichever piece of software you have chosen could be the time to look at learning something new.

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

I would suggest that you choose one or the other; not both right now.

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Manfred's comment deserves being reiterated, Maria. I recommended awhile back starting with Lightroom and then moving on to Elements when and if it is needed. That was based on your needs expressed at the time, but I don't remember what they were that drove me to make that recommendation.

I had started writing a piece about LR, the value it delivers in my workflow/asset management, how to mitigate against the risks inherent in the database and correcting some apparent misconceptions. However the tendency for dogma and pedantry to overwhelm pragmatism and education in discussions about some subjects, including Lightroom, drained all my desire to get involved, so I'll just go with:

Maria, I hope your choices turn out well for you and I wish you every success and enjoyment in the pursuit of your creative desires. If you ever want any input about LR from someone who uses it on a daily basis (without the world ending) to manage some 150,000+ client assets feel free to send me a PM.

All the best,
Ady

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Originally Posted by Mike Buckley

Manfred's comment deserves being reiterated, Maria. I recommended awhile back starting with Lightroom and then moving on to Elements when and if it is needed. That was based on your needs expressed at the time, but I don't remember what they were that drove me to make that recommendation.

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I agree with you and Manfred, Mike, which is what I have done. I am only using LR5 (trial) right now, I have not downloaded Elements yet. Once I get more familiar and confident with the basic editing tools then I will progress to Elements (I think :)).

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Originally Posted by Ady

...If you ever want any input about LR from someone who uses it on a daily basis (without the world ending) to manage some 150,000+ client assets feel free to send me a PM...

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Thanks Ady, definitely will do!

As well as this most excellent forum, another good place to know about is www.lightroomforums.net It is another friendly and helpful place, where they don't mind answering "dumb" questions. I know, I've asked a few :rolleyes:

Dave

One suggestion for you to consider - Tim Grey does a whole Lightroom learning course covering every aspect from getting started to printing, one snag it costs $50, but although there are others who offer free stuff, IMHO Tim's stuff is well worth it as he actually explains stuff and doesn't just go on an ego trip, check it out at http://greylearning.com/courses/index.html.

I'd also suggest Julieanne Kost - http://www.jkost.com/lightroom.html - her videos are free and very good, but I feel there is less continuity for the beginner.

steve

Okay folks, I have read all your replies etc etc. So here goes................I need a programme to process my photographs on. Can anyone recommend what is - 1) not too expensive, and, 2) easy to use for a simpleton beginner like me who is just getting started out. Any ideas?

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Originally Posted by Paul Windass

Okay folks, I have read all your replies etc etc. So here goes................I need a programme to process my photographs on. Can anyone recommend what is - 1) not too expensive, and, 2) easy to use for a simpleton beginner like me who is just getting started out. Any ideas?

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What camera? What computer operating system? Do you shoot RAW? Do you want to catalogue the photographs?

I am sure some others will think of even more questions....;)

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Originally Posted by pnodrog

I am sure some others will think of even more questions....;)

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What budget?

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Originally Posted by Mike Buckley

What budget?

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I would have liked to ask that but is not considered very good taste to probe into personal financial matters...:)

For me, it's not being rude to ask about the budget. Just the opposite, it's being empathetic, especially when the person asking the question asks that the cost be constrained to something that's "not too expensive." What is inexpensive to one person is expensive to another, so it helps to know what the budget is. As an example, depending on that information, some people might recommend one of the free software apps that are just fine.

Maria,

I will add this (knowing you have heard TMI and TMC (too much controversy): for the price, Lightroom is a fine program and I have found I can be very effective with it. I have started up the excessively steep Photoshop learning curve a number of times and found that for most things I do not need to keep going up that curve. Products like Lightroom and (dare I say it and add to the controversy?) Aperture work quickly, efficiently & produce excellent results.

I have a Canon EOS 1000D, awaiting arrival a new EOS 700D. I can shoot in either RAW or jpeg. My current laptop runs on windows XP, but looking to get another laptop for my photography. If I get one in near future will ensure it runs with windows. Budget £100. Thanks.
I have been advised Adobe and photoshop / Elements and Nero.