Anyone shoot roller derby ?

[Nomadr]

Hi I have been trying different techniques and settings shooting roller derby and still not quite there to get consistent good sharp action images,It makes me wonder how Ice hockey photographers get the shots because that sport is a lot faster,
My last settings were 1/250th at F4 with auto ISO, this produced in focus pics but extreme ISO (sometimes 6400 and above) made the hi-rez really noisy. I found from the time before that resizing down to 900 px made them look ok (ish).
I have tried lower speeds (1/80th) but that didnt focus quickly enough when they come towards me,while 1/250th seems ok, equipment is nikon D3,nikon 70-200 f2,8 set to continuous focus mode, I will find a couple of pics and post them. cheers martyn

[Nomadr]

a resized pic and a full rez crop.using flash would be out of the question.

[Shadowman]

I think you've done quite well with the settings used.

[William W]

Anyone shoot roller derby ?

Lex does. He is good at it.

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/fo...chmentid=23362


WW

[Nomadr]

thanks for comments so far, I checked the picture out, I think next time i may try halving the shutter speed and sticking to iso 1600,i dont mind some movement blur, first time i tried it i went a bit arty when i got bored and shot at 1/10th and 1/30th but no one appreciated it .

[William W]

Notwithstanding advice that may come regarding taking the images, once taken you can enhance the image to give a perception of sharpness by ensuring that the faces of the participants are ‘well lit’.

One common difficulty with all indoor sports is the fact that most are played with the competitors standing up and looking forward or down; most use face and head protection – and the kicker is the lights are always overhead. So to trick the viewers’ eye in to the apparent sharpness and also to keep the viewers’ interest in the image, post production to enhance the face is usually always mandatory.

Facial & Expressions enhancement can be done is several ways: a good general rule is to lighten and sharpen the faces and darken and sharpen the immediate surrounding areas, in this case the red and blue shirts.

Added punch by increasing the background to about what would be a ‘correct exposure’, such that all the key Subjects (essentially dark) sit on a lighter palette. If the background were in shadow, then to enhance the facial expressions the general rule would be to slightly darken the background.

Quick and rough two minute indicative, original is on top:



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Also I understand why one might chose to use Auto ISO, but I cannot understand why you would use F/4 on an F/2.8 lens in that shooting scenario; would you please provide your rationale for that choice? Thanks.

WW

[Mike Buckley]

Your second complete photo is just wonderful. Definitely to be hung on a wall. Only her near thigh is perfectly sharp and the rest including the background is blurred just the perfect amount -- great combination of panned background and blurred subject.

Consider brightening it a bit, depending on the style you like best, for more drama that complements the action. It also makes a great monochrome if you use a green filter to convert.

[William W]

. . . I think next time i may try halving the shutter speed and sticking to iso 1600, i dont mind some movement blur,

Please note that when using high ISO, the appearance of noise will be exacerbated if the image in is underexposed.

Reiterating: the image which I enhanced above, was indeed underexposed for the skin tones. If that image was correctly exposed there would not have been as much appearance of noise on then skin tones, even though it was captured at a very high ISO.

+++

The panning shot of the player in black is very good.

WW

[Nomadr]

thanks Mike,i love a bit of blur,
William yep it looks better with faces lightened,I normally shoot wide open but thought i would try F4 to get the images sharper,I am quite happy with the little images but at full size they look soft due to noise, my worry is if I get a really good shot and they want to use it in poster size promo. first time i was using 400 to 800 iso so that wasnt a problem when they used an image, cheers martyn

[Nomadr]

oops cross post there, yep i understand the noise will be worse if underexposed then brought up in PS,I had my exposure set to matrix and added plus point 3 exposure comp, i reckon the lighting in the place is fairly uniform so once i have gotten something resembling normal exposure i could switch to manual , i need autofocus tho because i am blind as bat , the main problem is everything looks brill on the camera screen , its only when you put it full size on the comp that you see the problems,

[William W]

. . . it looks better with faces lightened . . . at full size they look soft due to noise, my worry is if I get a really good shot and they want to use it in poster size promo. . .

Just mentioning again:

In most sports the FACIAL expression is key to the image, therefore if one chooses to use high ISO it is critical that the FACE is exposed correctly, at the release of the shutter.

If the face is underexposed, no matter what Post Production is done, there will always be noise which could have otherwise have been avoided.

WW

[William W]

Yes, we were writing at the same time. Thanks for confirming that you understand about noise; correct exposure and high ISO .

Shooting and then analysing the shot; then chimping; then repeating the same procedure IMO usually wastes both time and effort.
In uniform indoor lighting I make a meter reading on the skin tone of the face and then adjust for the type of skin from which I have metered, then I shoot in Manual Mode.

I don’t shoot Roller Derby, but I do shoot a many indoor sports, in low light.

Chimping was impossible with film.

Chimping is a useful technique, but not as useful as to warrant the excessive use that we see today, that of course is my opinion only and I am not suggesting that we or others have a long debate - merely putting the point relevant to your comment.

WW

[Nomadr]

i guess i could spot meter on a face and use those settings all the way through ?the auto iso was varying between 6400 and 7200 (ish),heres a pic straight from raw,iso 7200,according to ps it is over exposed (but i did have it on plus a third bias) because that looked better on my camera.

[William W]

i guess i could spot meter on a face and use those settings all the way through ?

I do that sometimes.
I have found it better and more accurate, with Canon and I don’t see why it would not be the same with Nikon, if one can get close enough to frame a full face and use (Nikon) ‘MATRIX’ Metering (EVALUATIVE for Canon).

***

heres a pic straight from raw,iso 7200,according to ps it is over exposed (but i did have it on plus a third bias) because that looked better on my camera.

This is the bit that I would use to evaluate exposure:


This frame looks about correct to me but you’d have more scrutiny resolving a crop from the original file.

WW

[Nomadr]

thanks Bill I will do that but do you mean just the face or include the hat and jersey like in the crop ?,going to try 1/125th next time and see if i can get a slight blur as a player gets knocked to the ground or bumped,if the focus isnt quick enough i will revert back to 250th.last time I used a white balance card and block processed all the pics in raw,the skin tones were a bit red but i went with it, in future i will get one pic perfect then batch process from that,
original

white balanced

[William W]

Good questions.

The devil is in the detail. For clarity here is an essay relating to this particular situation only and for you to consider:

Although I use Spot Metering most of the time and probably I would use Spot Metering in this specific case also, I gave the advice for you use Matrix Metering for several reasons, the main four being:

1. Firstly I am not intimately familiar with the Spot Metering on the Nikon D3. There are always nuances between Metering Modes and cameras. One specific criterion is that Spot Metering will have a differential between cameras: which is the size of the spot (measured in degrees of coverage).

2. Secondly and dependent upon the degree of coverage of the spot, when using Spot Metering care has to be taken as to what exactly is being metered: for one example if the Spot is relatively small and a reading is taken on the cheek area of the face, then there will be a particular meter reading, but if that same (small) Spot is used to meter the nose and a significant portion is the SHADOW SIDE of the Nose, then that area of shadow from the nose can sway the meter reading by ½ Stop or even 1 Full Stop.

3. Thirdly, because of BOTH the above reasons 1 and 2, combined with the fact that I do not know your: skill level; accuracy; discipline (no offense), it was prudent to advise the more simple approach which is also less prone to error.

4. Fourthly, because this is a forum in which we can only communicate by written word, that communication has a potential intrinsic flaws of misunderstanding either by way of misinterpretation of the literal words; not understanding the emphasis; not having the capacity of real time to and fro conversation which includes the nuances of – voice, tone, timbre and also body language - it was prudent to advise the more simple approach.

SUMMARY: IF you choose to use MATRIX METERING then roughly speaking I expect that you will need about 70% to 80% of the frame being the face. So to answer your question directly and using that crop I made as an example – something like this:



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If you choose to use Spot Metering – then more care is required

But with care and understanding Spot Metering will work most excellently for you. I find Spot Metering very quick and also efficient because I do not have to “get close”, and that is the main reason why I use Spot Metering with DSLR, mostly always.

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Also, I’d add two more points of detail:

1. My (limited) experience with Nikon’s latest iterations of Matrix Metering leads me to believe that it is “very good” interpreting “general scenes” so if you went a bit wider in the metering, for example, included the helmet and to the breast area capturing the jersey, doing so would not matter too much at all.

2. On the other hand – in that specific example, both the helmet and the jersey are BLACK, and cutting my teeth with 30+ years of Wedding Photography I am both respectful and cautious of BLACK and also WHITE when using TTL Metering.

SUMMARY: for THAT PARTICULAR woman (in black helmet and jersey) I would go in tighter than usual to make a MATRIX METERING.

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If I were using another player, attired differently, then using a wider frame for the Matrix Metering should be quite OK – like this:



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. . .Shooting and then analysing the shot; then chimping; then repeating the same procedure IMO usually wastes both time and effort.

In uniform indoor lighting I make a meter reading on the skin tone of the face and then adjust for the type of skin from which I have metered, then I shoot in Manual Mode.

(My underline and bold of my original comment is for emphasis.)

The point I mentioned earlier and re quoted here is integral to this technique.

SUMMARY: If, what ever Metering Mode is chosen to use, the TTL Meter is reading mostly only SKIN, for moderately tanned or ruddy Caucasian Skin, open-up about ⅔ Stop (I mention ruddy, because mostly likely they will be ruddy even if only after warm-up or just being hyped-up getting onto the track.

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On White Balance:


I would use Manual White Balance. Even if it is wrong the starting point for the BATCH processing will be constant.

Note that if there is Three Phase Lighting you will get incongruence unless you shoot at a bit slower than twice the cycle rate, or slower.

In the UK you're using 60Hz, so you'd need a Shutter Speed of about 1/100s, or slower, to ensure non-incongruence in about 90% of the shots over the session. Even using 1/100s you might have colour differences between shots, it depends on the quality and consistency of the electricity supply and also to condition (and age) of the lights.


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AF and Shutter Speed

I don't understand why you reason that shutter speed has a relationship to Auto Focus Speed, here:

going to try 1/125th next time and see if i can get a slight blur as a player gets knocked to the ground or bumped, if the focus isnt quick enough i will revert back to 250th

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EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The principles on which all the above comments are predicated are:

1. Take the time and put in the effort to understand how the TTL meter works on YOUR camera(s).

2. Each METERING MODE will have strengths and weaknesses.

3. The TYPE of LIGHTING SITUATION will dictate what METERING MODE is best to use.

4. TTL Meter is exactly that “THROUGH the lens” so the meter sees what is in the frame.

5. in simple terms A TTL meter assumes everything is 18% Grey. (requesting not to debate the percentage)

6. Manual Camera Mode is not ‘superior’ or ‘elitist’ to ‘S’; ‘A’, or ‘P’ Modes, but it is a choice available to use and Manual Mode is mostly always a better choice IF the lighting on the Key Subject Matter is generally CONSTANT and EVEN.

WW

[Nomadr]

no probs, spot meter is pretty good on the d3 especially combined with the 70-200,I tend not to chimp because i might miss a good shot but there are plenty of time outs,cheers for your input and if anyone else has ideas etc i am all ears . cheers martyn