Advice please on wildlife lens

[Adrian]

We are planning a trip to Japan later this year and intend to do some wildlife photography, including birds. I am seeking advice on a practical lens for wildlife, that will mainly be used by my wife.

We have Canon 5D3 (FF) and 70D (crop), plus the 70-200L f2.8 (current version) and the DO 70-300 (which is not my favourite lens ever but is compact).

I can't justify spending several thousand pounds on 400 or 500 mm Canon, as we will not use it that often. Renting is an option, but creates concerns as we will be travelling a lot.

Options appear to be 2X converter, something like a Sigma 150 - 500mm or 50-500 tele. I want to maximise bang for the buck in this instance, so advice would be appreciated.

Adrian

[JR1]

Surely either the 55-500 or 150-500 sigmas

I have the 120-400 on Canon and 150-500 on Nikon, wouldn't be without them

[Manfred M]

Other than the prblems we had with the 150-500 Sigma (in the shop twice within 6 months of purchase), it seems to have settled down and worked fine ever since. Optically it seems to be a tad better than the 50-500mm and takes a smaller, more commonly available filter (95mm). Both are FF lenses.

Our rationale was similar to yours, and we bought it prior to a trip to Namibia and it was with us in Ethiopia last year. I had the 80-400mm Nikon and while it is okay, it is a tad tricky to shoot with, so I wanted an easier to use lens for my wife.

I don't know if you can use it on the Canon with a 2x teleconverter. At f/6.8 it is already below the spec requirements for autofocus to work, and frankly, handholding a 500mm on a crop frame is marginal at best; trying to do so with the equivilent of 1000mm would be next to impossible without some form of support (tripod), which is of limited use with smaller, fast moving wildlife that you are likely to see in Japan.

Frankly, we saw very little wildlife, even in the rural, mountainous areas of Japan when we were there; but frankly we really spent a lot of time in urban areas and our trips to the countryside did not get us too far out of the towns as we were travelling by train, so can't really make a lot of suggestions.

Enjoy Japan; we certainly did (and are looking at a return trip next year).

[William W]

Best lightweight and comfortable bank balance option is the x2.0MkIII Tele Extender EF used on the EF 70 to 200 F/2.8 L IS MkII USM (assumed that is the lens that you have?), used on the EOS 7D.

That will give you AF at centre point and equivalent of a 140 to 400 F/5.6 non varying maximum aperture zoom lens (on a 7D with a FoV factor of .x1.4) That should be good reach and with a good exposure I expect that you could crop about 25% of that frame, if necessary.

I have used all five (5) of the Canon EF70 to 200 lenses and the first best combination lens /x2.0 extender is: EF 70 to 200 F/2.8 L IS MkII USM and the MkIII Extender.

Follows closely as second is: EF 70 to 200 F/2.8L USM and either the x2.0 MkII or x2.0MkIII.

The AF is slower than with the lens only, but I manage with most sports so I see no reason why you should not be OK in that area. I only ever use centre point AF, the 5D MkIII is more sophisticated inthe AF than my MkII so you should be better served than I.

Below are some (old) examples of the 70 to 200/2.8 (non IS) and the x2.0MkII extender - on a 5D and also a 20D. I'd guess that you should get slightly better IQ with a 5DMkIII and a 7D and most surely you will have greater ISO range.

I don’t use this combination often, but it is a lot lighter than the 400/2.8 and is very easy to carry the x2.0 in the kit. (Actually I carry both the x1.4 and the x2.0).

If I remember correctly your passion/technique for buying gear, you often buy second hand, so I think that you would recoup most of the money spent on a x2.0 Extender even if it is a MkII and you buy one now to have a play with it: it won’t cost you much to test it out for yourself.

Here are a few sample images, I have uploaded them quite big for your reference:


EOS 5D + 70 to 200F/2.8L USM + 2.0MkII used at 400mm @ F/6.3 @ 1/640s @ ISO250 Transverse Motion - Hand Held.

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EOS 5D + 70 to 200F/2.8L USM + 2.0MkII used at 400mm @ F6.3 @ 1/1600s @ ISO250 Head-On Motion - Hand Held

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226928v01 - EOS 20D + x2.0MkII: F/8 @ 1/1250s @ ISO800 FL =280mm

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EOS 20D 70-200/2.8L + x2.0MkII: F/14 @ 1/2000s @ ISO1600; FL = 400mm Full Crop

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20D 70-200/2.8L + x2.0MkII: F/14 @ 1/2000s @ ISO1600 FL = 400mm Detail Crop

WW

[Geoff F]

The Sigma 150-500 is a bit heavy and cumbersome for travelling, Adrian. But I find it works well enough subject to a few slight drawbacks.

It starts at F6.8 but I find it works best around F8-F11 which means it is a good light lens. Ideally, a tripod is worthwhile; although I find the OS to be surprisingly effective and any other partial support will help. Mine is fractionally soft below 200 mm but it retains good sharpness right up to 500 mm.

Autofocus is a little on the slow side, but it eventually gets there.

Tamron now have an alternative which goes to 600 mm and has received good reviews but I haven't used it.

The cheapest and simplest idea though would be for a x2 converter on your 70-200 which would give you 400 mm if that is sufficient for you. That lens will work with the Canon converter, which won't fit many other lenses; and being F2.8 you will still obtain autofocus.

[Adrian]

Thanks William. Helpful examples and advice. Yes, in the UK we have an active second hand market and I have a trading mentality. However, my wife has a more risk averse perspective and this is mainly for her. We can use a 7D, as we have one, but she is presently enjoying a 70D, which is ver similar to the 7D, but has advantages that she enjoys, such as the touch sensitive rear screen.

To be frank. I am not sure what we will be dealing with on this trip. My interest is far more aligned to street, and my wife is more wildlife oriented, so I am trying to accommodate her desire, without a high weight/bulk penalty.

We have a 70-200 2.8L Mark II USM (superb for portraits) and a MkIII extender is inexpensive, (costs less than a rental if resold on eBay if we don't like it) so it is a no brainer really to try that on either the 7D or 70D (very little to choose between these two cameras).

Feedback about Sigma failures does put me off somewhat. There is of course the SIGMA 500 APO, but at getting on for £3,800, itI may as well buy a Canon, use it for our trips this year and then sell it. I just know that my wife will not lug this hunk of glass around, so it will be my problem! It weighs over 3Kg on its own. I think a 5DIII body is plenty heavy enough with a 16-35 on it! Part of the issue is that with all this gear we stick out like a sore thumb: " we are tourists, come and visit our hotel room whilst we are out...."

So far the advice is extender (and your photos are convincing William, but I know you have good technique - bette than ours) of a Sigma.

Adrian

[William W]

. . . We can use a 7D, as we have one, but she is presently enjoying a 70D, which is [very] similar to the 7D, but has advantages that she enjoys, such as the touch sensitive rear screen.

My misread of the OP. Sorry.

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We have a 70-200 2.8L Mark II USM (superb for portraits) and a MkIII extender is inexpensive, (costs less than a rental if resold on eBay if we don't like it) so it is a no brainer really to try that on either the 7D or 70D (very little to choose between these two cameras). . .

So far the advice is extender (and your photos are convincing William, but I know you have good technique - [better] than ours) [or] a Sigma.

To be clear, my meaning was to buy the extender NOW - and practice with it to see if it is a fit with you (her).

Thanks for the compliment: but I have every confidence in your wife's capacities and capabilities as I am thimk that she would be motivated to achieve.

WW

[Adrian]

Thanks William and Geoff. Extender now ordered. Trying to find dealers who have either Sigma or Tamron in stock so I can see if they add to much bulk. I have always been wary of Tamron build quality, but in this case I might buy one or the other then chop them straight out on eBay after the trip.

[Adrian]

Geoff - I have looked into the Tamron 150-600mm f5-6.3 SP Di VC USD Lens - Canon Fit, which as you say does indeed get good reviews. This is available in the UK for around £950 and does seem something of a bargain. I might buy one anyway, as I suspect the cost of ownership for a few months if I decide to eBay it, will be fairly low. Thanks for the tip. Adrian

[Geoff F]

I had always been somewhat nervous of Tamron lenses, Adrian, and tended to associate them with budget priced equipment. But recently they have been producing some high quality lenses, and at realistic prices.

Last year I purchased one of their 24-70 lenses after my Canon 24-105 had failed for the second time. I find the Tamron to be much superior in performance and it is a stabilised lens unlike the Canon alternatives which cost a lot more.

[Adrian]

My local camera shop has obtained one for me and I will check it out today. Will report back.

[Adrian]

Purchased. Tried it today on 2 cameras with my wife, shooting ducks and geese on a local lake. Canon 70-200f2.8L on the other camera.

Will write a full review, with pictures soon. Very interesting to use two very different lenses.

[William W]

Ta.
Interested in the results and your opinions.

WW

[Adrian]

I am not sure how to upload photos here so will research that.

We tested this lens yesterday at a lake very close to our house, where we knew we were guaranteed to see geese, ducks, moorhens and herons. Unfortunately someone was feeding the ducks so all the birds were congregated in one place most of the time. Initial handling impressions are:

The Tamron will take some getting used to. On the crop (Canon 70D) my wife constantly found that she was too close to the subject. The Tamron is an extending zoom and the zoom action is quite stiff. It is not very easy to alter the zoom on the fly, when compared with the buttery smooth action on the 70-200 f2.8L Canon. This means that when dealing with moving targets, framing the image is not easy.

We have never had a really long focal length lens before, and the 600mm translates to 960mm on the 70D. This creates a very narrow angle of view, making grabbing shots of moving wildlife quite hard. Clearly there are technique issues here as neither of us is used to panning, or framing the shot with both eyes open, so the one eye off the viewfinder is effectively steering the camera. Practice is required, and we are addressing that before our next big trip. My advice though is don’t buy a lens like this and expect an instant affinity with it.

I think all of our other lenses are f2.8 or faster, so we are both used to having a lot of control over depth of field and the ability to be quite flexible with shutter speeds. The Tamron is an f5-6.3, though f5 does not appear always to be fully accessible on the 70D. For reasons I have yet to establish the lens seems to work best on this camera in Av mode. The limited maximum aperture obviously greatly limits light gathering, but of course for wildlife use this would not usually be a problem. We need to do much more work at different apertures to get a real feel for the lens, but I would say from a first look at the shots from yesterday (not run through PS yet, just downloaded) it is very good at 500mm but tending towards a little soft at 600mm, so the last bit of zoom is perhaps a bonus aspect.

The reason we bought this lens is for the long end of the zoom. I’m not sure the 150mm end is likely to be used much and if it were then I would pick a different tool for the job anyway from the Canon arsenal. To get a Canon lens capable of 500mm or more has the advantage of much faster aperture, but three major disadvantages: sheer bulk, weight and a price of something like 7 times more. We paid £929 for the Tamron (there is no case by the way and none available currently) so although it is a compromise you do get a great deal of bang for the buck.

The lens weighs about 2kg, and although you could take off the tripod mount to reduce weight a bit, you won’t because it is very helpful in keeping the lens steady, especially on a smaller camera. It is about 36cm long when fully extended, plus the massive hood, so it is quite long to hold still. There is a built in IS system called Vibration Compensation, which allegedly gives 3 f stops upside. It takes ginormous 95mm filters, which, needless to say, we don’t have. Filter ring does not rotate when you focus.

The 70D is a nice light camera for ladies to handle, but if you are used to a more advanced body, then adjusting aperture and shutter speed with the camera up to your eye is far from intuitive (no joystick, no rear wheel in the same way as the 5DIII and 7D). My wife ended up with quite a few very dark shots because she was using too a high a shutter speed . Again, it’s a technique thing, but the lens is not very forgiving! At the moment the lens is much easier to use effectively on the larger 5DIII body, with its more “pro” control layout.

Build quality: the reviews we read say it is very good. This is a subjective point unless you take the lens apart to inspect it, but from a handling perspective the Canon 70-200 gives an impression of far higher build quality. The Tamron looks fine, and is good enough. At this price I would not expect more. It even claims to have a degree of weather sealing, but with the zoom pumping in and out extending the barrel, I would prefer to avoid using it in a rain shower.

I will add further comments once I’ve processed some shots in PS and fathomed out how to upload pictures.

[ajohnw]

You sure move quickly Adrian. I have an interest in the Tamron lens as well for a rather silly reason - longer equivalent focal length than I can achieve on m 4/3. Look forward to see some shots. I'd guess just like the sigma lens best results will be in the F8 to F11 range especially at the longer end. I had hoped they would just stick with 200-500mm rather than go longer Sigma but the 200-500mm is best closed down.

I found this review interesting even though it's a little extreme to compare it with a Canon 600mm F4 prime.

http://www.theamazingimage.com/wildl...elephoto-zoom/

I use ebay much like you even buying used, trying and then selling. If I had noticed this thread earlier I would have probably mentioned that you could kit out with an E-M5 and 3 lenses to cover 28 to 600mm full frame equivalent for more or less the same price as the Tamron. Well known uk retailer that sells with a guarantee. The only thing that upsets me about the camera is the tracking AF particularly in macro and less so with birds in flight. I also notice a tendency for more wide angle distortion due to the shorter focal lengths. Mostly slower lenses particularly at the longer focal length so more use had to be made of ISO. Maybe one day they will bring out a dedicated light to 500mm zoom without too wide a range. Preferably Olympus as the lens based IS just makes them bigger and heavier.

John
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[Geoff F]

If you still have any problems uploading photos, Adrian, have a read of this thread HELP THREAD: How can I post images here?

That large Tamron certainly sounds similar to the Sigma 150-500. Fully extended 320 mm plus hood, but a mere 86 mm diameter. Auto focus is slow so for many shots I manually focus or at least have the lens pre focused somewhere close to the required AF spot; and normally shoot in the F8 to F11 bracket, plus selecting a realistic shutter speed as well as using the stabilisation..

It does have somewhat limited use, but so does something like a 400 mm prime plus a 1.4x converter. However when you need that extra length these lenses are the only real option.

At the shorter end of the range, yes, no comparison against that excellent Canon 70-200, in any of the various forms. But not so different if you compare it against something like a budget priced 70-300 etc.

[Adrian]

I've got to go through about 280 shots taken by my wife, son and myself and select some sensible examples, then process them. Takes me ages to do that! Having started to run through some of them in Bridge today, I was surprised to see we took most shots with the Canon 70-200f2.8L II, which is superb. I think the Tamron will perform well but we need to learn better how to use it.

[William W]

. . . The Tamron will take some getting used to . . . The Tamron is an extending zoom and the zoom action is quite stiff. It is not very easy to alter the zoom on the fly, when compared with the buttery smooth action on the 70-200 f2.8L Canon. This means that when dealing with moving targets, framing the image is not easy.

We have never had a really long focal length lens before, and the 600mm translates to 960mm on the 70D. This creates a very narrow angle of view, making grabbing shots of moving wildlife quite hard. Clearly there are technique issues here as neither of us is used to panning, or framing the shot with both eyes open, so the one eye off the viewfinder is effectively steering the camera.

Try a monopod with direct mounting to the Tripod ring mount of the lens. In a standing position get the camera in tight to the right eye and right shoulder and the left foot level to or just forward of the monopod ground point. (i.e.Feet in a "Traditional" Boxing Stance). This allows the left elbow to be tucked into the left ribs and allows a smooth leverage and strength for the left hand to use the push/pull zoom mechanism. Yes I have found other Tamron Zooms 'sticky' at points of the Zoom 's compass, even their turret zooms.

In this standing position one can easier lift and plant the monopod’s foot forward to shoot upward or back between the legs to shoot downward – a compass of about 45° ~ 60° can be possible depending upon your height.

Kneeling position there is less up and down compass.

If necessary a high quality ball head can be used on the monopod to get more up and down compass, but I have never needed it for sport and I don’t think you will need it either.

One shooting Technique:

Frame a bit wide, whilst following the action
Correct exposure
Zoom in and frame in the centre
AF
Shoot


WW

[Adrian]

Thanks Bill. Will try those tips when we next get a couple of days off. Where we live there are several lakes around, and a good deal of deciduous woodland surrounding them. Bird shots (ducks, geese, herons, some raptors) are available, but you need to spot them quickly before they are obscured by trees. The biggest problem is getting locked on to the bird quickly enough.

I was quite impressed with the Tamron's focussing speed. Very fast. Not as good as the Canon 70-200 (which is incredibly fast). I suspect that this may be a bit like clay pigeon shooting: ie when panning, it is necessary to follow through as the shutter is depressed and accept that the camera will capture some misses.

[William W]

Just clarifying - Do not think that 'birds in flight' is in my forte: it is not. I don’t do that at all and I didn’t mean to give that as an impression that I did.

The monopod technique I suggested is typical for following subjects on a field of play and can be readily be applied to animals running on the ground (which I have done) or water birds swimming taking off and landing (also I have done) and that’s why I was suggesting to for you: that and also as a response to the broader scope of this thread: "wildlife shots".

I’d expect the technique would have some use for birds in flight too, but birds have a rather large ‘field of play’ and as I mentioned that’s not a game that I have played very much at all – in fact I would have to go searching for even one, not so good, photo of a bird in flight that I have made.

WW