Sensor Size: Resolution vs. Noise

[tthaley]

How do higher resolution sensors affect apparent noise, all other things being equal?

My thinking is as follows:
A percent increase in sensor resolution causes each pixel to decrease in size by the same percentage.
This decrease in pixel size would reduce the maximum number of photons that could be held by each pixel (presumedly by the percent increase in sensor resolution), thereby reducing dynamic range and SNR. However, resolution increases while SNR decreases, so the apparent noise remains constant as resolution decreases (if the picture is viewed at an appropriate viewing distance).

Specifically, I am interested in the tradeoff between the D600 and D800.

[Polar01]

Tom just to throw a wrench into things, the D600 is no more, it was replaced by the D610 which has had it's Low Pass Filter removed which is similar more to the D800E than the D800.

Cheers: Allan

[NorthernFocus]

A lot depends on ultimate image size/resolution. Downsampling is very effective at reducing noise. If you pixel peep, D800 starts getting noisy above ISO1600. I try to stay below that for images planned for print larger than 8x10/12.

[Manfred M]

Check out the following link:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compa...___915_834_792

[tthaley]

I have a D600, so the comparison is meaningful. Either way, the D610 is effectively the same camera. I highly doubt the D610 lacks an LPF, considering its intended market and the fact that it doesn't honor the "E" naming convention.

From Nikon (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr...atures04.htm):
"The D610 employs an Image Sensor Cleaning function that vibrates the optical low-pass filter at four different resonant frequencies to reduce dust."

[tthaley]

Thanks for the link. It seems that the D600 and D800 are very similar. Is the primary difference the maximum print size at constant resolution?

A Nikon Technical Sales Representative told me the D600 is intended for the "weekend warrior". The D600 doesn't seem to vary tremendously from more expensive Nikon models.
The TSR also said that the D800 is the "little brother" to the D4s. I feel like the D600 is more of a "little brother" to the D800 and the D4/D4s is a class of its own.

[Polar01]

I stand corrected I thought that I had read somewhere that the D610 did not have a OLPF, but it does, like my D600. As for the honour of "E" naming convention the D7100 does not use the "E", however it does not have the OLPF.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d7100/15

Cheers: Allan

[NorthernFocus]

I stand corrected I thought that I had read somewhere that the D610 did not have a OLPF, but it does, like my D600. As for the honour of "E" naming convention the D7100 does not use the "E", however it does not have the OLPF.

Cheers: Allan

You likely confused the current rumors that the D800 upgrade to be released this week is to be called D810 and will have no OLPF.

The current D800E only got that designation because the produced the body with and without the filter, D800 and E version respectively.

[dragon76]

Thanks for the link. It seems that the D600 and D800 are very similar. Is the primary difference the maximum print size at constant resolution?

A Nikon Technical Sales Representative told me the D600 is intended for the "weekend warrior". The D600 doesn't seem to vary tremendously from more expensive Nikon models.
The TSR also said that the D800 is the "little brother" to the D4s. I feel like the D600 is more of a "little brother" to the D800 and the D4/D4s is a class of its own.

I no longer have the D600 or the D7000 but IMO, D600 is a FX/ big brother of D7000. D610 is an FX /big brother of D7100. D800 was the new ring leader that replaced D700. By the way, the world is better with 51 AF points

D4 is a different animal altogether, super fast image play back, phenominal frame rates for multiple action shots and the auto-diming LEDs in the view finder that shows AF area without covering anything is just awesome. It's hard to describe but the D4 is much different feel to the rest of the 3 digits series.

that's my 0.2c

[benm]

Thanks for the link. It seems that the D600 and D800 are very similar. Is the primary difference the maximum print size at constant resolution?

A Nikon Technical Sales Representative told me the D600 is intended for the "weekend warrior". The D600 doesn't seem to vary tremendously from more expensive Nikon models.
The TSR also said that the D800 is the "little brother" to the D4s. I feel like the D600 is more of a "little brother" to the D800 and the D4/D4s is a class of its own.

I think you will have difficulty seeing the difference between a D600 photo and a D800 photo.

There are some operational differences; the D800 has a better autofocus module (same as the D4). "Better" meaning it can lock focus faster on a moving subject (though you still have to know what you are doing). On the other hand the D600 has a faster frame rate (6 fps vs 4 fps).

[Manfred M]

Thanks for the link. It seems that the D600 and D800 are very similar. Is the primary difference the maximum print size at constant resolution?

A Nikon Technical Sales Representative told me the D600 is intended for the "weekend warrior". The D600 doesn't seem to vary tremendously from more expensive Nikon models.
The TSR also said that the D800 is the "little brother" to the D4s. I feel like the D600 is more of a "little brother" to the D800 and the D4/D4s is a class of its own.

There are two key issues at play here; basic image quality and the layout / usability of the camera itself.

Frankly, unless you are doing huge prints (in the order of 1m x 2m / 3ft x 6 ft) and got into pixel peeping mode, generally you would probably seem minimal differences in overall image quality (I do have a D800). Frankly, unless I am shooting a landscape using a heavy duty tripod, I can't get the full value out of the D800 sensor.

BUT

I had a chance to look at a D600 in detail last week and it has many of the same features that I don't like about my D90. It is set up for amateur use and the layout and the controls are more awkward to use. A lot of functions that I access without taking my eye off the viewfinder on the D800, I have to get through a menu on the D600.

I think the Nikon rep provided you with a reasonable analogy on the target audiences of the two bodies. The D4 and D800 are targeted at different markets (D4 = sports and low light photography; D800 landscape and portrait photographers).

The D600 / D610 are clearly aimed at the amateur who wants a full-frame camera who does not want to spend the money on a D800(E).

[NorthernFocus]

I think you will have difficulty seeing the difference between a D600 photo and a D800 photo...

You should qualify this statement. It depends on what the images will be used for or how large the format will be. For making large and/or highly detailed prints, the D800E can only be matched by medium/large format bodies and/or film. Or by stitching multiple frames if possible.

IMO the D800 is the best camera currently produced by Nikon. If it had a higher frame rate I'd shoot it 90 percent of the time.

[benm]

You should qualify this statement. It depends on what the images will be used for or how large the format will be. For making large and/or highly detailed prints, the D800E can only be matched by medium/large format bodies and/or film. Or by stitching multiple frames if possible.

IMO the D800 is the best camera currently produced by Nikon. If it had a higher frame rate I'd shoot it 90 percent of the time.

For most photography for most people there is minimal difference. For web or monitor viewing there is zero difference. The D800 has the advantage (over the D600) for very large prints* and for aggressive cropping.

* How large? I don't know. I have made 20"x30" landscape prints from a 12 MP camera (D90) and the detail is stunning.

[Manfred M]

* How large? I don't know. I have made 20"x30" landscape prints from a 12 MP camera (D90) and the detail is stunning.

I regularly do 17" x 22" prints from both my D90 and my D800. I can tell the difference, and honestly that did surprise me; BUT, they have to be side-by-side for me to be able to tell. On their own I would be hard-pressed to say which camera was used.

The images taken by the D800 seem to have more colour depth.

[NorthernFocus]

...I have made 20"x30" landscape prints from a 12 MP camera (D90) and the detail is stunning.

The definition of "stunning" is purely subjective. As Manfred points out, lay them side by side and there is a difference. Is it important? That's a purely individual decision. In my own home, I still have landscape prints on the wall that were taken with a D40. Content often trumps IQ and further muddies the waters of discussion. But if one is attempting to optimize, the D800 is currently the top of the line 35mm format body available. Is it necessary? We each have to decide. They make more than one model for a reason

When it comes right down to it, for pure IQ, the best images I have ever captured, bar none, have come out of the D7100. But it has more limited application than the D800.

[FrankMi]

When it comes right down to it, for pure IQ, the best images I have ever captured, bar none, have come out of the D7100. But it has more limited application than the D800.

An interesting observation Dan. I have been thinking of upgrading from my D3100 to the D7100 for some time now. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but what are your thoughts on why the D7100 IQ would be significantly better than the other cameras discussed here?

[benm]

I regularly do 17" x 22" prints from both my D90 and my D800. I can tell the difference, and honestly that did surprise me; BUT, they have to be side-by-side for me to be able to tell. On their own I would be hard-pressed to say which camera was used.

The images taken by the D800 seem to have more colour depth.

I did not mean to imply that a D90 20"x30" print would be the same as from a D800. I meant that the D800 would be capable of an even larger print. But it will not be as large as one might think when looking at the MP - 12 vs 36 - due to the difference in sensor size.

[NorthernFocus]

...what are your thoughts on why the D7100 IQ would be significantly better than the other cameras discussed here?

First I should qualify the statement and say that opinion is based on comparative wildlife shots. That's mostly what I've shot with the D7100.

My statement is based purely on subjective comparison between the various bodies that I've owned. Granted my data set is tens of thousands of images that I've looked at. But I'm not qualified to provide any meaningful insight as to why the IQ is so good. One thing different is that the D7100 has no OLP filter. The D800E actually has the filter plus another filter to reverse the effect. So that much more "resistance" for the light to pass through en route to the sensor. I suspect it is meaningful that Nikon and other manufacturers are now eliminating the OLPF on high resolution bodies. Beyond that, who knows? Characteristics of that particular sensor?

[tthaley]

IMO the D800 is the best camera currently produced by Nikon. If it had a higher frame rate I'd shoot it 90 percent of the time.

The rumored D810 or D800s is expected to have higher frame rate. Thoughts on this camera?

Looking at the explanation of the OLPF for the D800/E it looks like no additional filters were added for the E; the E just replaces the wave plate with optical glass (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr...features01.htm). This likely does not lower the light transmission efficiency.

What are the pros and cons of having an OLPF? It seems like a very slight increase in resolution for quite a bit of liability in terms of moire and false color.

[FrankMi]

First I should qualify the statement and say that opinion is based on comparative wildlife shots. That's mostly what I've shot with the D7100.

My statement is based purely on subjective comparison between the various bodies that I've owned. Granted my data set is tens of thousands of images that I've looked at. But I'm not qualified to provide any meaningful insight as to why the IQ is so good. One thing different is that the D7100 has no OLP filter. The D800E actually has the filter plus another filter to reverse the effect. So that much more "resistance" for the light to pass through en route to the sensor. I suspect it is meaningful that Nikon and other manufacturers are now eliminating the OLPF on high resolution bodies. Beyond that, who knows? Characteristics of that particular sensor?

Thanks for the insight Dan!