Help with group photo?

[purplehaze]

Gak! I have been asked to shoot a group photo of my Dragonboat team to send to the organizers of an international festival it is competing in later this year. They want me to shoot between practice slots when the maximum number of team members will be there, which is to say, between 40 and 50 people. Photo will be shot outdoors and light will be on the wane (7:30 at lat 49.89 N on July 7). I shoot a Nikon D7100 and have the 18-105 mm kit lens from my D90, and a nikkor 35mm. (I assume I wouldn't want one of my longer lenses, but I may be wrong?) I also have two SB700 flashes and stands, one standard-sized umbrella and one large reflector. Can I do this, do you think? If so, what do you suggest for a set-up?

[chauncey]

40-50 people Janis...this will probably wind up being like trying to herd cats. You might be
better off doing a series of them in smaller groups, then submit the whole package of images.

[PhotomanJohn]

I have taken many groups that size. Your strobe lights won't help with that size of a group so you will need some sun light to pull this off. Generally these shots are arranged with people kneeling in the front then shorter to taller folks as you go back. I have found that I still need to get the camera fairly high (like 10') in order to actually see everyones faces. Then comes getting everyone where they can be seen and having a reasonable expression. Close the lens down to improve the depth of field as the light will allow. Crank up the ISO if needed. A little grain is better than people's faces being out of focus. Take lots of shots and hopefully you will get one where everyone looks good.

Good luck.

[Mike Buckley]

Take lots of shots and hopefully you will get one where everyone looks good.

Or one that requires moving the minimal number of heads from other captures to the overall best capture.

[purplehaze]

Thanks, John. Very helpful. I could ladder everyone as you said, or I could position everyone on a slope that is at the location; either way, I can see that I could use a ladder for me to stand on. Do you have a focal length to recommend? I am thinking 24 mm on the zoom lens might be the safest bet; I'm not sure if there would be room to use the prime, but I could take it along, just in case.

No choice about the subject, I'm afraid, Chauncey, as the request is for at least one "team" photo. At least we are a well-disciplined group; if I get one of the coaches to bark out the orders, I expect everyone will co-operate.

Mike, your suggestion is too horrible to contemplate. I will be sure to squeeze off as many frames as time and patience allow.

[William W]

. . .shoot a group photo of my Dragonboat team to send to the organizers of an international festival . . . want me to shoot between practice slots when the maximum number of team members will be there . . . between 40 and 50 people. Photo will be shot outdoors and light will be on the wane (7:30 at lat 49.89 N on July 7). I shoot a Nikon D7100 and have the 18-105 mm kit lens from my D90, and a nikkor 35mm. . .I also have two SB700 flashes and stands, one standard-sized umbrella and one large reflector. Can I do this, do you think? If so, what do you suggest for a set-up?

I have shot many group portraits like this. Here are waht I consider the main points that you might want to consider:

> Arrangement of the group is the key element.

Beforehand, I suggest that you talk to the Team Manager and or Boat Captain to make it THEIR responsibility to have the team members 100% compliant to your arrangement and for them to execute your direction in a precise and efficient fashion.

You must be in control of the Subjects and you must command authority in regard to managing the group arrangement – emphasise that it is each their responsibility to make the best photo possible for this event.

The main element is that ALL the faces can see the lens of the camera – keep stressing this point.

I would not submit or even suggest submitting several individual images of fewer people if the organization has asked for one only group photo of the team; doing so only loses favour for your team.

*

> Help them all see the camera easily:

Make the group arrangement such that each person can easily see the camera lens.

Shoot in LANDSCAPE ORIENTATION.

To help the Group see the camera, make the position of the camera about 1 metre higher than the tallest person standing in the group – this will force all the heads tilt up slightly and the faces are more easily seen.

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> FLASH and my view on that point.

Flash will be very important and is most necessary for the shooting scenario as you have outlined it.

Forget the umbrellas and the reflectors. Use Single Flash as Fill. Use the Flash Camera Mounted and pointed directly at the Subjects.

(If you do not already know how), you need to learn and then practice how to balance Flash as Fill in Daylight.

Briefly to make flash as fill you need to:
- calculate the exposure for the ambient background
- get the Group Arrangement so that the failing sun is behind or behind and to the side of the Subjects.
- at a GUESS you will be at around ISO1600 for evening failing light mid-year at that latitude to allow the Flash to Balance the ambient.
- you probably will be around F/8, can do F/5.6 if necessary that is my absolute safe limit for a group three deep.
- shutter speed - keep a close eye on it - I don't like going slower than 1/80s - 1/50s is my absolute safe limit.
- when backlighting the Group, be aware of sun hitting the lens and causing FLARE.

– I reiterate you need to learn how to do this, as each shooting scenario is subtly different AND at dusk the sun light fails VERY QUICKLY.


Whilst it is nice to use dusk light with Flash as Fill - Dusk is not as good as using the morning dawn light which is always increasing (not diminishing)

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> The Flash power is the determinate:

The driving element is the RANGE of the FLASH (as a distance) and the SHOOTING DISTANCE must be within the effective flash range.

You must (EMPHASISE MUST) have the Flash positioned within its Working Distance to ensure that it illuminates the faces for a correct exposure on skin tones.

I advise you NOT to 'think smart' and try to take the flash off the camera to get it closer so it is within its working distance, because the instant that you do that you will have flash OFF AXIS to the camera and you have faces likely to be in Flash Shadow

I expect that I would use the zoom lens that you mention, probably set at around 28mm and I’d be thinking of a tight arrangement of the group such that I could be shooting at a distance of 1 or 2 meters INSIDE the Effective Flash Range, for whatever ISO and Aperture that is selected.


*

> The Sun and my view on that point.

I would always make every effort to AVOID using the sun as the main light in any outdoor group photo: except if it is Diffused Sunlight (i.e. total cloud cover or open shade), and even then total cloud cover / open shade is not really good light for 'pop'.

Using the Sun as the main light encourages, almost guarantees SQUINTING.

Also (direct) sun provides HARD SHADOWS from one Subject in the group to the other, which usually have to be managed by spreading the group arrangement which is totally counterproductive.

(Diffused) sun (or open shade) provides soft light over a scene at about EV 12~ EV13, which renders an exposure of about F/5.6 ~ F/8 @ 1/400s @ ISO400, which is a suitable shutter speed to be safe to arrest Subject Motion, but the light does not create a lot of 'pop' - and when using complete cloud cover or open shade I will still punch in a bit of flash as fill for added depth and grunt to the image.

*

> Do not use the lens too wide:

40 to 50 is not a really big group and for that it is best to use around or a bit wider than a NORMAL LENS – so on your APS-C Camera that’s about FL = 30mm or a bit wider . . .

but use the lens wide enough (and arrange the group tight enough) so that you are ALWAYS within the FLASH's EFFECTIVE WORKING DISTANCE.

*

> Use a tripod.

You can converse and control the group more easily. Remote release is a step better again.

*

> Understand Depth of Field.

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Here is a sample that I have on hand and use for tuition about shooting for midsized sports' groups in situ.

There are about 30 people in this shot - but it is easy to vision arranging another 20 in it, by placing eight more on each side, a few of them sitting; and then another five in the back row, at camera left.

It was made in the morning (as mentioned if the shooting time can be chosen, then the morning light is a better choice). The sun is rising behind the Group and was behind very light cloud cover you can see the soft shadows on the ground. This was made with an EOS 5D and a 50mm lens and a Canon dedicated flash which was camera mounted. The Photographer is standing on an incline and is slightly above the group and is about 12 ft from the group, which is just within the Flash's Working Distance. This set allows for a nice balance of Flash as Fill to the ambient sunlight:



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Time often slips away and you might not be able to work as fast as what I would like. You might get to where sun is providing little effective backlight for the Group and not even making the evening sky look nice.

In this case you will need to move to using Flash as Key and this could provide challenges as the textbook method would be to use two flash heads with diffuser modifiers situated about 15° ~ 30° off lens axis.

But in situ and in the scenario that you describe and assuming that you have little experience in this field - probably I would NOT suggest that you do that - but rather better to choose to apply an expedient approach and get the group very tight and use the on camera flash with a bounce mitt and an high ISO and use a slightly wider lens – like here using a 24mm Lens on 5D Series Camera and the Flash is used as the Key Light when we had to make some very quick shots in a darker ambient environment:



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You might subsequently ask specific questions about this procedure and if so it would best to provide a sample of the specific environment showing EXIF at the typical shooting time.

WW

PS -

re your latest response, we were cross-posting

- it sounds to me that you are already priming the coach to act as the headmaster . . . very good.

[purplehaze]

Bill,

Thanks so much for the many pointers. I have some experience using the SB700 as fill and key, but much to learn. You have cut out my work for me for this weekend and next. Meanwhile, I will run out to the site one evening this week or next to scout it for the best location and take some exposure readings. I will also take some pics for you to show you the general layout in relation to the position of the sun. Again, many thanks.

[William W]

Vous êtes les bienvenus.

Très bon.

WW

[PhotomanJohn]

Bill - The problem I have with using flash-fill on a large group is the limited flash power of speed lights and the fall off of the light. In your first photo you say you were about 12 feet from the group and i assume you mean from the front row. That would make you at least 18 feet from the folks in the back row. This means that the light from the flash would be at least a stop lower on the folks in the back row which would be very noticeable. Since it is not, I have to assume that either the amount of flash fill was insignificant or you did a very nice job of compensating for it in post. In the second photo it looks like the ratio of the distance to the first row as compared to the back row distance is even worse and I would expect as much of a couple stops difference in flash fill.

So what is your trick for getting around the laws of physics?

John

[William W]

Bill - The problem I have with using flash-fill on a large group is the limited flash power of speed lights and the fall off of the light.

Thanks for the detailed questions.

Firstly, unless you change your position, we’ll have to agree to disagree on what constitutes a “large group”.

I don’t view a group of 50 as ‘large’. (For better meaning please see point three about Flash Fall Off)

Secondly, I have no problem with the FLASH POWER of Speedlites when used for Flash as Fill, provided that the Shooting Distance is maintained to be within the Effective Flash Range – which was underscored several times in the previous post.

I have lived on using 'on camera' and 'quick release off camera' Flash as Fill in Daylight for >35 years - from single bridal portraiture to groups of 50 and more.

Thirdly, Flash Fall off: I agree is a consideration.

BUT the whole consideration about FALL OFF is consumed and then answered by controlling the DEPTH of the group’s ARRANGEMENT as that DEPTH pertains to the FLASH's POSITION.

The DEPTH of the group as it pertains to the FLASH is controlled by and the POSITION OF the FLASH relative to the group and definitely NOT by the number in the group, per se. (By unintentional co-incidence the second sample image provides a useful example of FLASH POSITION seeking to nullify Fall Off)

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In your first photo you say you were about 12 feet from the group and i assume you mean from the front row.

No, from the centre row, that would be where the image was focussed.

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That would make you at least 18 feet from the folks in the back row.

No. About 13’ 6”, maybe 14’. That distance, whatever it actually was, would be just under or at, the maximum working distance of the Flash. I do know that I used a tape measure for the front row to assess DoF becasue I was fairly open with the aperture to get the Flash Working Distance as "safe". (BTW yes, I knew the end game for the images were to be no bigger than about 5x7 prints or web images when I was assessing DoF)

They’re packed fairly tight. They are mostly all touching their neighbours.

I allocate or calculate ½ meter or 18” between heads of the standing rows for a sardine packed group.

There is a slight curve at camera left, but that is coming toward the camera.

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This means that the light from the flash would be at least a stop lower on the folks in the back row which would be very noticeable.

No. (Not a stop lower)
And No. (It is not noticeable – which you have stated)
And No I disagree. (One stop less of flash fill due to fall off is NOT always "very noticeable" - it depends on many factors one of which is the Flash Fill to Ambient ratio)
Yes back row has a little bit of PP on it - see below.

What is noticeable is the definitely stronger effect of the flash on the faces of the people in the front row (seated).

*

Since it is not, I have to assume that either the amount of flash fill was insignificant or you did a very nice job of compensating for it in post.

No. (Flash was not insignificant). See above comment.
Yes (The shot was post produced) - main point to mention to address your question: the faces of the back row were dodged about ½ to ¾ Stop – certainly not a full stop, though.

*

In the second photo it looks like the ratio of the distance to the first row as compared to the back row distance is even worse and I would expect as much of a couple stops difference in flash fill.

These swimmers are packed tight also: but I am not sure that the depth of the group is any greater than the first group though but if it is it doesn’t matter that much – read on.

Have a close look at the male youth, extreme back second from camera left. He is definitely cramped and touching the Female youth in front of him, BUT - note the FLASH SHADOW on his face. The extreme downward angle of that shadow indicates that the flash for this shot is OFF CAMERA and it was – quite high but still above the camera and forward of it.

Downward flash on a tight group shot close with a very wide lens is a puposeful technique as it is designed to negate the effect of Flash Fall Off.

*

So what is your trick for getting around the laws of physics?

No tricks, just as per the above procedures which were taught to me and learned by me a long time ago and then lots of times doing it, really quickly and efficiently under the pressure of shooting on-site and to a tight time line.

- back at ya

WW

[PhotomanJohn]

Bill - Thanks for the response. It is not that I don't use flash fill for outdoor portraits but it sounds like I need to practice more when faced with subject of greater depth. As we have both pointed out, understanding the behavior of light including the inverse square law is important in photography.

John

[William W]

. . . but it sounds like I need to practice more when faced with subject of greater depth. . .

Well, if you are receptive to a bit of unsolicited advice: I think that there is a critical step before any practice begins.

It's all about knowing what are the LIMITS and then how far one can push them.

The technical side of Photography, whilst predicated upon Mathematics, does NOT play out to be ONLY Mathematics in REAL WORLD of Photography and in the FINAL PRINT. One example of this concept which I use with my students is: Depth of Field.

Really if we think about it, from a point of view of Applied Mathematics and the Final Print DoF is such a silly notion, because there is only ONE Plane of Sharp Focus. But as we all should know DoF can be very important - and it is the flexibility of how DoF appears in the FINAL PRINT which can be leveraged to the Photographer's advantage in the field.

It is my informed opinion, (gained from teaching Photography and observing a wide range student types), that many folk who are predisposed to being "mathematicians" (as opposed to "poets") get too involved in the Mathematics and then what happens is the Mathematics tends to rule their choice selections: and at worst this predisposition to mathematics can leave them blind to viable choices which are available.

***

The way I approach most of the TECHNICAL aspects of Photography is that I seek to understand the LIMITS and then I learn and practice pushing those limits in the real world of Photography: because Photography is only a BIT OF science, not ALL SCIENCE . . .:

What's the slowest Hand Held Shutter speed this lens at Subject this distance?
Whet’s the closest framing and largest aperture can I focus and recompose by swivelling?
How far away can I use my flash as fill set x stops under/over the ambient?
What's the slowest shutter speed for a Backstroke Start - for kids?
What's the slowest shutter speed for a Backstroke Start - for swimmers at national/international level?
What's the slowest shutter speed for Breaststroke shot front on?
What's the range of panning speeds to use for a downhill run when the Shooting Distance is y meters?
What's the closest SD I can work to give me the best number of shot options for a Downhill run?
For a group photo, no trees or shade at all, what's the furthest SD to be safe?
etc . . .

WW

[jcuknz]

I have never taken a photo such as suggested but was a subject in one on one occasion. So if I had to and could I would copy what the photographer did which was to use a high step ladder

This reduced the depth of field needed as he looked down on us. Concentrating on our faces and not wasting space on our bodies.

[purplehaze]

I would copy what the photographer did which was to use a high step ladder

Yes, thanks John, I am seeing all the advantages of getting above my subjects, some way or another. Won't commit to a high ladder (this is a volunteer job, after all), but a ladder is a possibility. My first choice though will be to put myself and the tripod on a slope above.

[purplehaze]

[B] Photography is only a BIT OF science, not ALL SCIENCE . . .:WW

It is comforting to read this, Bill, as I find the math a bit daunting. I tend to be pretty lazy about it, frankly, and generally go with the long, slow accumulation of experience as to what works and what doesn't. But that won't do in this case, where I can't afford to fail, so I will do the math and combine it with some real world experimentation.

Speaking of which, I was just in the backyard, checking exposure requirements, which was promising. At a little past 8 pm under a cloudy sky, 80 seconds at f/8 pushed the ISO to 1000. Curious thing, though: when I pointed the camera towards the corner of the yard (green leaves, reddish brown fence, stone stucco-faced garage), I got a good exposure, but when I pointed it straight at the stone-stucco wall of the garage, the ISO dropped to 250, but the resulting image was significantly underexposed. I shot again, and got the same results. What explains this behaviour? I have only recently started using Auto ISO and this is the first time I used it in Manual mode.

[William W]

. . . I was just in the backyard, checking exposure requirements, which was promising. At a little past 8 pm under a cloudy sky, 80 seconds at f/8 pushed the ISO to 1000. Curious thing, though: when I pointed the camera towards the corner of the yard (green leaves, reddish brown fence, stone stucco-faced garage), I got a good exposure, but when I pointed it straight at the stone-stucco wall of the garage, the ISO dropped to 250, but the resulting image was significantly underexposed.

Best guess:

1. The wall was lighter (in colour) than PHOTOGRAPHIC GREY.
2. The wall occupied most of the frame in the viewfinder.

These two elements fooled the TTL meter (Through the Lens Light meter).
(Light meters are mentally inefficient and are also BLIND – they don’t KNOW what they are LOOKING AT)

Get a white dinner plate and a black dinner plate and take a photo of each of them individually using an automatic camera mode and make sure the whole plate occupies as much of the scrne as possible.

The Black plate will be OVERexposed – it will appear GREY
The White Plate will be UNDERexposed – it will appear GREY

WW

[William W]

THEN –
Go out on a sunny day with your plates and don’t take any notice whatsoever of the light meter:



The image is a JPEG SOOC (Straight Out Of Camera) Picture Style Set at: Neutral

WW

[purplehaze]

Best guess:

1. The wall was lighter (in colour) than PHOTOGRAPHIC GREY.
2. The wall occupied most of the frame in the viewfinder.
WW

Ah, yes. Basic photographic principle. I must be tired. Yeesh.

New complications with regard to the team photo. They want "casual" rather than "formal", with some people in the boat, some in the dock and a view of the river. I have asked for further particulars, like do they mean candid or posed, everyone in focus or some in and some not, but I am thinking what they want is simply not achievable. The dock is only about four feet wide, for heaven's sake, and it and the boat will be bobbing in the waves. The people in the boat will be lower than the people on the dock, but behind them, meaning I will have to be above them all, which puts me on the shore, far out of flash range.

[William W]

That's not a "group portrait" / "team picture" in the sense that we were previously discussing - simple flash is not appropriate for this new request.

WW

[Marie Hass]

Jan,

Have you given thought to stitching a pano? Swivel on a tripod, taking several shots, then stitch? Time and light would be on your side.

Marie