Hi. My name is Jay. I am new in here. Question about a camera

[Black Pearl]

John VR/IS is nice to have but it costs money - that simple thing you seem to be oblivious to.

For the budget you're not going to get it (easily) so its not really a factor. Doesn't matter as we shot for considerably longer without VR/IS than we have with it and somehow still managed to take great photographs. We also shot with films that for practical purposes tended to top out at 400iso and with cameras that you had to focus and that stopped shooting after 36 shots meaning you had to pause while another roll was loaded - but we still took great photographs.

You don't need the latest kit to take great photographs you just need a bit of skill (which can be learned) and the willingness to try.

Jay - again - you will do perfectly fine for your budget and be able to buy a great camera that you will have buckets of fun with.

[ajohnw]

True again but isn't only fair to warn the OP? After all there is no point buying something that can't be used reasonably for it's intended purpose.

Your comment is a bit like Robin's really. I searched for up to $500 because I thought the OP might find what is likely to be needed for that but in some ways that actually looks unlikely. I mentioned the 18-105mm as I suspect Jay would be happy with that for some time. The 18-55mm is another matter. I also suggested another search. Plenty of camera under $300 come up with that one. If it's possible to buy either a cheaper camera with 2 lenses one of which will be rather difficult to use or in all provability a better camera with a single lens please do tell me which you would buy? I know which way I would jump and then save my pennies for the long lens. If I remember correctly Jay did mention buying another lens latter so I suggested which one - if Nikon. I would hope that he could find a camera with the 18-105mm but if not ...........

I also thought I should point out a problem with ebay 2 lens plus camera bargains. The long lens generally doesn't have IS or VR because if it did the seller would most likely sell it separately. Longer zoom lenses without IS or VR can be rather tough to sell which is why they are often included in bargains that in real terms aren't.

John
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[Black Pearl]

You don't need VR/IS to take good photographs - you just don't - photographers didn't have it for countless years but still took photographs. Stop with the 'you can not' and just encourage Jay to get a camera within his budget then go about wearing it smooth taking thousands and thousands of photographs.

It does't matter in the slightest that the gear for that budget will be older and might not have all the bells & whistles it was fantastic when it was released and it is still just as fantastic now.

[Black Pearl]

Nikon D70 + AF-S 18-70mm (a brilliant lens) + AF 70-300mm and some accessories - starting bid $200.

Make an offer and you'll bag yourself an amazing outfit:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D70-6-...item43cbc2f1d4

[Donald]

You don't need VR/IS to take good photographs ...

If we did, I'd have to throw away the 24-70 f2.8L!

[Glenn NK]

If we did, I'd have to throw away the 24-70 f2.8L!

To say nothing about thousands of other excellent lenses.

I think I'll be keeping my 100 macro and TSE24 II.

Incidentally TS lenses don't come in stabilized versions.

G

[inkista]

For fast-action shooting VR/IS becomes less of an issue because your shutter speed is liable to up and over 1/focal_length anyway, to freeze action. I did birds in flight with a Canon XT/350D. And my keeper rate rose far more when I switched from a 75-300 to a 400/5.6L (say 70%) than when I switched with the 400/5.6L from the 350D to a 50D (say 5-10%).

A used D60 18-55/55-200 kit is exactly the type of beginner package we were suggesting, but the suggestion to consider going back farther in age, but higher up the tiers to a much older prosumer body also has merit, especially on the Nikon side of the fence, because it will a) have better dual-wheel handling and a hardier body, b) a better AF system, and c) not be hampered from autofocusing by the lack of AF-S in a lens. On the Canon side of the fence, a used 30D would be analogous. As was mentioned, the iso performance of an older body will, however, be an issue, and the older a used camera is, the more liable it may be to have been damaged, or heavily used, shortening the usable life left. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

The only other system I could consider that might work for you at this price-tag level might be the Nikon 1 system. This is not a dSLR, but a mirrorless camera with a smaller-than-average sensor (1" format). But it was made to be a soccer mom's camera. The low light capability may not be dLSR level, but the burst-shooting and AF system certainly are from most reports. So a Nikon 1 camera and 30-110 (the crop factor on CX-format is 2.7x might make it in under the budget, so that makes it effectively like a 70-300 lens). It's also a ton smaller and lighter than a dSLR setup. But, overall, the system is very limited compared to a dSLR, lenswise. But right now, B&H has a red S1 twin kitted with the 30-110 and 11-27.5 for $299.

Not sure how practical a suggestion this is. But here's the dpreview look at the S1:
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/996...oundup-2013/10

My quick tag for the Nikon 1 series is "the perfect soccer mom camera."

[ajohnw]

I do know that Kathy. I formed my opinions by using 200mm and 500mm primes on film. 200 fine in reasonable conditions. 500mm a different matter. 300mm x 1.5 for the crop is getting that way. At the time I was using a 200mm prime the general consensus was a bit of a waste of time unless conditions were favourable which is why there are so many 135mm old used primes about. Getting ISO's up helps a lot in this respect but 400 ASA film had been around for rather a long time and doesn't help all that much when things get up near 500mm. Personally I feel IS/VR is a bit of a waste of time up to something like 150mm on full frame so I don't blame Donald keeping his lens. I wont be getting rid of my 24 to whatever Canon lens either unless the canon's go. I also have a 150-500mm none IS for Canon. I know what I can do with that on a D300 and 5D without a tripod. I also know what level of tripod it needs.

The Nikon 1 isn't a bad thought. Better than the bridge I suggested. I'd say that may the most sensible suggestion yet other than some one who has used a dslr probably wont like the camera. No viewfinder. The bridge does have one but is too expensive new anyway.

Afraid I feel Jay would be better of getting the most recent camera he can with a single lens and buying the other one later and avoiding the two lens ebay bargains because in real terms they aren't bargains at all and just intended to catch the unwary. That's why most don't even mention which lens has the IS.

As a for instance Jay could get a d3000 with the 18-55mm and still have $60 towards the other lens eg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D3000-...item2a3e795f91

If he looks about he might find a d3100. To be honest though I feel that he would be a lot better off if he increased his budget. Eg a camera Robin recommended some time ago to some one as it does have a good sensor

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-D5100-...item35d92a55f8

At the time Robin recommended that the same subject came up as it was kitted with a none IS to 300mm which is why they were being sold at very low prices. There are several D5100's about but they needs $400 or an auction MIGHT work out less. A look at completed listings would clear that up. On the other hand when I buy off ebay which I often do I see people bidding on things when there is a buy it now about at lower prices. At $430 at the moment he could also manage a manufacturers refurb with the 18-55mm.

The reason I mention higher prices is that like every one else I have no idea of his financial circumstances but do feel that spending a little more wouldn't be a bad idea and cheaper in the long run.

I feel it's wrong to tell people to just go buy this and have a wonderful time without warning them of the problems. When people then respond by mentioning shorter focal length lenses without IS well, some expletives come to mind as it has nothing to do with hand held long focal length lenses.

I would also advise him to look around at dealers used stock. Ebay sometimes isn't the cheapest option especially when people are bidding on things.

John
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[Black Pearl]

...and sometimes a budget is a budget is a budget and no matter how much you personally think spending more is worth while that budget will still be there.

By all means offer advice on what you could get by spending more but never - and I mean never ever ever - tell someone who has a fixed budget that they can't. I worked in the photographic retail business for 24 years (still work in sales) and I know when to say "If you spend a bit more" and I know when to find something suitable within a budget.

If I told you your camera wasn't good enough and you needed to go out and buy something far more expensive than you could possibly afford or you wouldn't be able to take good pictures you'd flip you nut, create a 100+ line post (that no one would read) and fill it with a dozen links (that no one will click on) while throwing a full on apoplectic rage to prove your point. In other words you'd be royally piss*d off..........now do you understand why people buy something they can afford.

[Black Pearl]

...and by the way long lenses without VR existed in a time of limited iso for years but people still used them.

You Do Not Need VR/IS To Take A Good Photograph!

[Glenn NK]

...and by the way long lenses without VR existed in a time of limited iso for years but people still used them.

You Do Not Need VR/IS To Take A Good Photograph!

Isn't is amazing what we "need" these days.

99 percent of photogs publish only on line but many still must have a minimum of 24 MP (and 36 is even better yet) so they can make JPEGs. (On one forum, the maximum image size in a personal portfolio is 250 kilobytes).

[rtbaum]

I will admit that I have not been enamored with IS/OS/VR/whatever other name it may be named. Maybe because I am a dinosaur from the film era, maybe because I learned to use a tripod, or perhaps I have developed good technique. I only have it on two lenses-my macro (what's the point? It won't keep the flower from moving) and my Tamron 18-270 (out grew this lens 2 years ago, not convinced image stabilization improved my success rate). I am with Robin on this issue, with the budget available, an older body may be the answer. My concern is that a 18-55mm may not have the reach necessary for sports, i would keep an eye out for the 55-200 or 55-300.

[Umpref19]

How about this camera for 250

This sony a (alpha) 300 dslr camera is in great condition! It comes with everything you see in the pictures. If you have any questions about anything don't hesitate to ask!

[Black Pearl]

With a tight budget you are better sticking with either Canon or Nikon as there is far more choice on the used market when you come to add lenses and accessories simply because they are more popular. Nothing at all wrong with Sony by the way.

[ajohnw]

...and by the way long lenses without VR existed in a time of limited iso for years but people still used them.

You Do Not Need VR/IS To Take A Good Photograph!

As I pointed out I have used them on film. Long time ago but I can still remember the numbers 200mm 1/125 sec or higher with care low end ok but many people wouldn't buy them and stuck with 135mm. Some bought them and found they couldn't use them. All sorts of things come into that including age eventually. The weather too. I'm currently shooting hand held macro without flash. Fine if there is some sun about and a bit oh dear if there isn't. The weather has a considerable impact on just how useful IS/VR is on any lens as you well know. Age? Jay could be anything between 10 and 100 or more for all we know. Most peoples budgets come from spare cash. Often a rather limited amount. Mine is for instance. All spending more within reason often mean is waiting longer before actually making a purchase. It's oh so easy to get up one morning say this or that would be nice and jump based on very little information.

It's a pity most low priced cameras seem to come with the 18-55mm but it will I hope offer more scope than a camera phone. There's been no mention of what that can do other than it has a burst mode. That may well be a lot higher speed than what is available on dslr's and even on mirrorless when focus between shots is added.

Going back to Nikon bodies and cheap lenses no one has mention that on the D5100 for instance only a certain series of lenses can be used on it as it lacks the focus motor that some cameras have built into the camera body. That will apply to other Nikon bodies. Some have it some don't. Getting something of the age of a D5100 with the built in motor is likely to be a lot more expensive. Canon EOS bodies don't have this problem. Actually looking at ebay USA again they may be a better option. This one for instance up in 38min

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-Re...item19eff6fba7

There are plenty of sub $300 Canon's on there. I sometimes think Canon owners are more likely to want the latest greatest all of the time which might explain why this camera is currently priced as it is. Jay is likely to have more choice via Canon and there are a number of cameras with 2 lenses on there. Quickly looking it seems Jay may get more bang for his bucks via Canon probably because they have sold a lot more cameras than Nikon. There is also because of that more chance of finding a low usage one - when listings state that I have found it to be true when it can be checked. A bit difficult in reality on Canon according to their service people.

Be prepared to find the need for a new battery what ever make you choose. Often older cameras have been left sitting there for a long time and that isn't good for the battery. They also wear out. If the camera is left for a very long time unused it's best to leave them around 1/2 charged or even less.

IS in this case or no IS. I'll just leave that up to Jay now. I can't add any more that may be of use.

John
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[Black Pearl]

In the heyday of 35mm AF cameras (15-20 years ago) one of the most popular longer lenses was the Sigma 400mm f5.6. Two flavours were made with a standard one costing around £200 and the APO version (if memory serves) at about £280. They were well made, affordable, had built in hoods and not a single one of them had VR/IS but they were incredibly popular with bird photographers who wanted more than the rather basic 70-300mm zooms could offer.

They still hold that sort of value today and are still capable of outstanding results - you just need to know what you are doing to use them properly. To be honest the same goes for so called 'kit' lenses. They can product superb results if used correctly despite the rediculous bile they seem to get from some quarters.

If you have a budget you buy what you can and make it work as best as possible. I would love a D4s and a Zeiss 55mm f1.4 OTUS but I can't afford one so I do the very best I can with a K30 and an oldish smc-F 50mm f1.7.
Same goes for Jay, he can get a twin lens kit for his budget and will be able to get excellent images from it with a little practice. I only hope he comes back with his results so helpful members can continue to give advice.

[ajohnw]

LOL. I just happen to have one of those Sigma lenses but one of the earlier none EOS canon mount types. I'm the 3rd person I know of that has owned it and just can't get reliable enough results without a tripod. Manually focusing it isn't really a problem even on a Canon. It also has a tripod mount. Some long lenses haven't and some can't even be fitted with one.

Last time I came near selling it the person went into a camera shop for advice and the man said no no you don't want that. Must admit my inclination was to bin it anyway as I know that who ever bought it would need a tripod just as with my 150-500mm AF Sigma without IS in many many situations. Actually that aspect has put me right of using it. Looks like I will bin that as bought new and well looked after but has touches of the dreaded fungus. Turns out that it can't be dismantled for internal cleaning.

I would agree on kit lenses but there are some exceptions but even then at the usual even larger sizes they can produce good results. Often the only real benefit of other lenses is faster glass but personally given that these days 800 ISO can often really be used on many cameras that gain is a bit dubious other than when some one wants to use a converter with a long lens.

I'll be curious to see what that canon kit goes for. If I noticed the remaining time correctly it seems to have been extended.

John
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[Glenn NK]

I'm hoping someone is familiar with this camera Jay and can help you, but my personal feeling is to stick with one of the name brands that Robin has suggested (Nikon or Canon). One reason is that if you are a beginner and have questions, there are far more users of Canon and Nikon gear out there (and here) that could help you.

Glenn

[ajohnw]

The one I linked to went for $310 snipped 5sec before the end by some one with a high feedback count. A big problem when bargains do really appear on ebay.

John
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[Shadowman]

John VR/IS is nice to have but it costs money - that simple thing you seem to be oblivious to.

For the budget you're not going to get it (easily) so its not really a factor. Doesn't matter as we shot for considerably longer without VR/IS than we have with it and somehow still managed to take great photographs. We also shot with films that for practical purposes tended to top out at 400iso and with cameras that you had to focus and that stopped shooting after 36 shots meaning you had to pause while another roll was loaded - but we still took great photographs.

You don't need the latest kit to take great photographs you just need a bit of skill (which can be learned) and the willingness to try.

Jay - again - you will do perfectly fine for your budget and be able to buy a great camera that you will have buckets of fun with.

Although the more expensive gear/more functions may not help the OP, hopefully the information helps the next person searching for gear. The good thing about advice given on gear is it is usually good for at least 3 months, by then the latest and greatest will be on the market and pricing schemes may fall or rise.