Colin im finally going to learn how to sharpen images correctly!

[Colin Southern]

Hi Mark,

I put a kinda "mini sharpening tutorial" together some time ago. You might find it interesting:

Sharpening and Noise Reduction Sequence

[Mark von Kanel]

Or, one can simply get the focus correct before taking the shot, instead of relying on software to compensate for poor technique.

Thank god for that i almost thought you were going to say i needed to include topaz in my workflow!

Colin could you please tell me how many different sharpening layers you would use for the portrait? i dont want a blow by blow account on how to do it, ill go away and read about it but if you could tel me 1 layer for hair 1 for eyes 1 for eyebrows.... or do i do it in one hit with a mask with no layer?

thanks

[Colin Southern]

Thank god for that i almost thought you were going to say i needed to include topaz in my workflow!

Colin could you please tell me how many different sharpening layers you would use for the portrait? i dont want a blow by blow account on how to do it, ill go away and read about it but if you could tel me 1 layer for hair 1 for eyes 1 for eyebrows.... or do i do it in one hit with a mask with no layer?

thanks

Hi Mark,

I think you're over thinking it. Sharpening that image (assuming starting with a RAW & full resolution capture) would take me about 3 seconds.

- Capture sharpening - 0.3px @ 300%

- Content / creative sharpening - probably around 4px @ 40%

- Down-sample for internet display

- Output sharpening - 0.3px (guessing here) 50 to 100%

Job done.

I'd be more concerned with other aspects of the image to be honest - it really needs a digital GND from the left to knock back some of the washout, and I'd probably play with some of the tones around the lady's face a little, and then add a vignette to give the illusion of more targeted lighting.

Happy to give it a full retouch for you if it's a shot you'd like to print / keep (if you want to flick me the full resolution original).

[Colin Southern]

PS: There are a couple of techniques for "quick and dirty" sharpening adjustments; occasionally you WILL get an image where optimal sharpening for one area is sub-optimal for another - and in those situations you can get a good result simply by duplicating the layer - apply the optimal sharpening for one one optimal area but to the entire image - then just grab a soft brush and erase the non-optimally sharpened areas (or partially erase them - or mask them).

It's dirty - real dirty - but it's darn fast and gets a good result.

I use a variation for skin softening; dup the layer - apply a blur (set the radius equal to the number of megapixels of the camera) - set opacity initially to 50% (so you can see what you're doing) and with a soft brush (about 40%) - erase the bits that should be sharp (ie all non-skin areas, nostrils, and lips). After that - set the final opacity (as a starting point, set the opacity to the age of the subject) (eg 25% for a 25 year old).

[Mark von Kanel]

- Content / creative sharpening - probably around 4px @ 40%

This is where im getting confused, i know how to do this in camera raw id just use a brush in the areas that need it, im not so sure in ps because i thought i was supposed to use an unsharpe mask.

I'd be more concerned with other aspects of the image to be honest - it really needs a digital GND from the left to knock back some of the washout, and I'd probably play with some of the tones around the lady's face a little, and then add a vignette to give the illusion of more targeted lighting.

This is one of the reasons i picked this image, i know it needs other stuff doing which i will takle bit by bit in different threads all leading to the final output, i know its all basic stuff but im determined to get to the bottom of how it all works and understand how to achieve consistent results

I think you're over thinking it

yup i know i am but im trying to make it as educative as possible for others as well as me i really want to understand what im doing not just do it because thats how it should be done.

thanks Colin

[Mark von Kanel]

PS: There are a couple of techniques for "quick and dirty" sharpening adjustments; occasionally you WILL get an image where optimal sharpening for one area is sub-optimal for another - and in those situations you can get a good result simply by duplicating the layer - apply the optimal sharpening for one one optimal area but to the entire image - then just grab a soft brush and erase the non-optimally sharpened areas (or partially erase them - or mask them).

It's dirty - real dirty - but it's darn fast and gets a good result.

I use a variation for skin softening; dup the layer - apply a blur (set the radius equal to the number of megapixels of the camera) - set opacity initially to 50% (so you can see what you're doing) and with a soft brush (about 40%) - erase the bits that should be sharp (ie all non-skin areas, nostrils, and lips). After that - set the final opacity (as a starting point, set the opacity to the age of the subject) (eg 25% for a 25 year old).

Fantastic Colin thanks now i need a portrait to practice on!

[Stagecoach]

+1 to the CSM procedure as described in the post Colin referred to and of course get it right in camera and no additional toys are needed

CSM = Colin Southern Method.

Grahame

[ajohnw]

ok before work this morning i had a play with the sliders in camera raw and using the preview thing by holding own the cmd alt keys i found that my input/capture sharpening needs the values amount 60 radius 1.5 detail 44 and mask 21 for this photo (in my opinion)

Those settings don't sound like the one Geoff posted for ACR Mark

ACR, Clarity around 30 (Vibrance around20). Then a 'capture sharpen' about 50 to 80 max with radius of 0.5. Sometimes use the Masking option about 10 to 20 setting if I go above 50 in the amount. And a little bit of Noise Reduction, say 10 to 20. Then Open in Main window.

So I would guess that your radius is Geoff's amount. As I said I don't use it so have to guess. There seems to be 2 ways the rad is specified in packages and in one 0.5 is often about right especially for macro shots or things with that amount and style of detail. There are no set figures to use. It's better to understand what happens.

This might help after a fashion

http://helpx.adobe.com/creative-suit...amera-raw.html

The 100% view is rather important. What you are hoping to see is a crisping up of detail. In general with full sized images a larger radius and amount can be used - if it's needed. It's best to apply an amount that just does that.

It sound like Adobe calculate a threshold where as I have to set it so in basic terms you just have amount and radius so as Geoff suggests leave masking and detail at zero. These do as the Adobe link states and should be used as it suggests. The detail one is interesting as usually there is more interest in sharpening just fine detail. The masking restricts it to higher contrast boundaries. These are the ones that can cause grief when too much sharpening is applied or the wrong rad is used. Haloes appear around them, most likely on say a black to white sharp or even less transition. I think the CinC tutorial covers this but there can be situations where very little sharpening can be applied to an image because of this problem. Clouds can go from being smoothly toned to having tone steps in them. This is probably why the detail slider is there - to retain texture.

Whoops. forgot - if you apply it and scan over it at 100% for problem and then zoom out again and apply too much or too high a rad you will see that the contrast can become rather strange. The bee shot would be a good one to play with on that score..

There are some video tutorials on Adobe's site on making good use of ACR's features but they can be hard to find. Many just show what new versions have added but there are some that cover specific areas. It can do a lot and from what I can see proficient people seem to make a fair amount of use of it. This not only includes sharpening in but also getting tones at least loosely where they need to be. Why is covered here

http://tv.adobe.com/watch/visual-des...-of-photoshop/

Finding the follow on from that isn't easy but they are there somewhere.

John
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[Mark von Kanel]

+1 to the CSM procedure as described in the post Colin referred to and of course get it right in camera and no additional toys are needed

CSM = Colin Southern Method.

Grahame

ok read that understand now but still need to read how to do selective sharpening in PS ill get there!

[ajohnw]

Colin I'm curious. What is the downside of forgetting capture sharpening of the order mentioned and going straight for creative sharpening?

I realise that this can have some strange effects if over done but if I decided to sharpen the full sized image I would generally go for 4 to 6 px rad and an amount of 50 to 60 on a scale that goes to 200. I wont mention GIMP numbers as they are entirely different and several methods of doing it.

I was trying to explain the mechanism and effect on my post. I feel I can walk on that one now,

John
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[Mark von Kanel]

Colin I'm curious. What is the downside of forgetting capture sharpening of the order mentioned and going straight for creative sharpening?

I realise that this can have some strange effects if over done but if I decided to sharpen the full sized image I would generally go for 4 to 6 px rad and an amount of 50 to 60 on a scale that goes to 200. I wont mention GIMP numbers as they are entirely different and several methods of doing it.

I was trying to explain the mechanism and effect on my post. I feel I can walk on that one now,

John
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oo oo! i think i know the answer to this on from one of colins tutorials!!

apture sharpening is only visible at a pixel level -- so one has to zoom in to 100% to be able to see it. In the grand scheme of things it won't make any difference to the final image if it's not done ... it just makes the image nicer to work on at high magnifications when one is doing professional retouching. Time for some examples ...

see im learning!

[The Blue Boy]

Hi Mark,

A few years ago, Colin told me to read Bruce Fraser's book Real World Image Sharpening. I think it was for PS CS2 at that time but this is irrelevant as it's been updated.

I highly recommend that you read it. Not only will it show real world examples of how to go about sharpening, it also discusses noise reduction, how to selectively use layer masks and many other things.

It's very technical and hard to understand at times but ultimately worth it, as it will install a deep-seated understanding of how your pixels work.

[Mark von Kanel]

Those settings don't sound like the one Geoff posted for ACR Mark

CR, Clarity around 30 (Vibrance around20). Then a 'capture sharpen' about 50 to 80 max with radius of 0.5. Sometimes use the Masking option about 10 to 20 setting if I go above 50 in the amount. And a little bit of Noise Reduction, say 10 to 20. Then Open in Main window.

Hi John.

As i said earlier i was experimenting, and sharpening is particular to the type of image (from what im reading by bruce frazer) its all a bit fussy but ive learnt a lot, i dont think it makes a shed load of difference what values you use within a certain range as long as you apply some (and even then its not a tragedy if you dont according to Colins tutorial)

This all sounds similar to the discussion on gamuts.... as long as you apply some capture sharpening why worry / as long as you work in a gamut why worry???

As for Geoffs other settings , they are right for his work flow, were i to generically add 30 clarity and 20 vibrance to all my images they would look wrong to me, as for noise reduction i dont generally get noise unless im pushing the crop or exposure which i try not to do, so i dont need that for an import setting either.

Im not saying these are wrong for Geoff but i need to sort my own out i do add both clarity and vibrance so ill go through all of my images and see what im averaging and maybe set it up as a pre set.

This is all really helping, thanks everyone.

So now im off to play with selective sharpening in PS.

[Mark von Kanel]

A few years ago, Colin told me to read Bruce Fraser's book Real World Image Sharpening. I think it was for PS CS2 at that time but this is irrelevant as it's been updated.

Already there Mark!

Im also reading the ultimate workshop challenge ps cs5 by martin Evening/jeff schewe who credit him for all his sharpening techniques

[ajohnw]

Already there Mark!

Im also reading the ultimate workshop challenge ps cs5 by martin Evening/jeff schewe who credit him for all his sharpening techniques

I reckon if you read too much you will never get there.

Sharpening isn't too bad. Given an image it's probably possible to apply a new setting and look every 5 secs. Several images and that can give an idea of what does what. The extra settings are for solving problems - when they occur, same thing try them. Sharpening can be used for several things even as a type of contrast manipulation at times.

As to my question too Colin. It might so as the question is now buried and probably wont be answered I'll find out for myself.

The reason it may be detrimental is that without it the creative aspect has a worse image to work on. On the other hand if detail is blurred because it's at the limits of a lenses resolution or movement it wont help at all. Creative levels can help a bit with that.

John
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[Mark von Kanel]

I reckon if you read too much you will never get there.

Sharpening isn't too bad. Given an image it's probably possible to apply a new setting and look every 5 secs. Several images and that can give an idea of what does what. The extra settings are for solving problems - when they occur, same thing try them. Sharpening can be used for several things even as a type of contrast manipulation at times.

As to my question too Colin. It might so as the question is now buried and probably wont be answered I'll find out for myself.

The reason it may be detrimental is that without it the creative aspect has a worse image to work on. On the other hand if detail is blurred because it's at the limits of a lenses resolution or movement it wont help at all. Creative levels can help a bit with that.

John
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Yup never a truer statement John its now more a case of getting used to PS than the idea of sharpening, which ive got, now its getting used to layers and masks, but as using ps is my target its all good!

[ajohnw]

Yup never a truer statement John its now more a case of getting used to PS than the idea of sharpening, which ive got, now its getting used to layers and masks, but as using ps is my target its all good!

I would wonder if you will need to back step and get to grips with black points, white points, mid tone contrast / gamma, curves and levels and how, why and when to use them. Maybe you already have. Personally I decided to more or less kick photography out of the window, point the camera at all most anything in any old conditions and concentrate on PP. Layers have been added to that fairly recently. From time to time I might spend rather a lot of time on some images. Mostly when I post in a thread I don't and just get to something that I feel is acceptable.

It's beginning to come together but I may have to start thinking about what I photograph now. Currently macro saves me from that problem.

John
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[Mark von Kanel]

I would wonder if you will need to back step and get to grips with black points, white points, mid tone contrast / gamma, curves and levels and how, why and when to use them. Maybe you already have. Personally I decided to more or less kick photography out of the window, point the camera at all most anything in any old conditions and concentrate on PP. Layers have been added to that fairly recently. From time to time I might spend rather a lot of time on some images. Mostly when I post in a thread I don't and just get to something that I feel is acceptable.

It's beginning to come together but I may have to start thinking about what I photograph now. Currently macro saves me from that problem.

John
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You have a camera??? bugger i knew there was something missing from my kit list......

[ajohnw]

You have a camera??? bugger i knew there was something missing from my kit list......

Think so but not sure where it is.

John
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[Cantab]

Mark, thank you for starting this thread. I'm finding it helpful. I've been dithering for quite some time about perhaps getting Bruce Fraser's book on sharpening. I take it from your comments that you've found it readable and helpful?