Not easy, need advice.

[HaseebM]

I have been inspired by some of the wine glass images over here. I need to head over and get one but in the meantime, I used a medium sized blue vase to try and get as close as possible to some of the images I see here. I used Elinchrom RX 4 for this purpose with a black backdrop. I tried nearly 20 shots before I decided this one I am posting has perhaps the best outcome though by no means anywhere close to what the images say here.

Aside from these two RX 4 D Lites, I have 600 EX RT. I am certain this shot has loads of room for improvement and any suggestions to this effect would be tried and posted here and if successful, make my day.

I used a Canon 17-40 L at ISO 100, shutter 1/100 at f/9 with all background lights switched off.

I also tried a few other settings outcome of which was rejected. I have deleted all remaining pictures.

Cleaned up a bit....

[Shadowman]

Looks good, a few specks of white in the right hand corner near your watermark.

[Kodiak]

The most "magical" characteristic of glass is its transparency. Explore that
specially with this blue one!

[HaseebM]

Thanks John and Kodiak. John, yes I noticed those specks which I need to remove.

Kodiak, it was your image that really made me try this. I too wanted that transparency to appear on this image but clueless as to what else I can do? Perhaps backlighting with a large torch or flash? Look forward to any suggestions.

[Kodiak]

Thanks John and Kodiak. John, yes I noticed those specks which I need to remove.

Kodiak, it was your image that really made me try this. I too wanted that transparency to appear on this image but clueless as to what else I can do? Perhaps backlighting with a large torch or flash? Look forward to any suggestions.

I suggest you try the avenues you deduct yourself!

[Mike Buckley]

Yikes -- glass and metal! I suppose you could have decided upon a more difficult combination to photograph but I can't think of one.

You brought out the texture in the metal very nicely, so be sure to keep that when you bring out the translucent quality of the glass. The easiest way to do that might be to combine two exposures -- one for the glass and one for the metal.

The characteristic that I dislike the most about this photo is the group of four, large, bright reflections and the smaller bright reflections in that area (reflections probably of your light sources). Those reflections not only don't add any helpful information about the glass, they detract from the otherwise very nice composition.

[Manfred M]

White seamless with a large sweep; metered with an incident light meter at f/16 @ 1/160 ISO 100. Medium softbox parallel to the tabletop (i.e. pointing straight down). I find shooting on dark background a bit of a pain as one always gets reflective bits that need cleaning up and prefer the white background.





The setup I used:





The light was lower down for the shot I posted. I had been playing around with the lighting a bit more to try to even out the background and light dropoff.

[HaseebM]

Thanks Mike, I didn't think of combining images, will try that.

Manfred, that's a neat shot and thanks for posting the set up. I bought white paper and plan to try your set up. Not sure if outcome will be as good as yours due to the vase' long neck but will give it a try.

[HaseebM]

Is this better? Though I don't have Manfred's set up, I had to make do with by holding the 600 RT flash over but with white background.



I seem to lose some details on the metal work though.

[Kodiak]

Nope… the ratio between reflected and transparency lights is too strong in favour
of the first.

Try using a continuous light source to explore your subject. When you find what
you're after, then use the flash from the same position and spread.

[Mike Buckley]

Notice that the changed lighting setup revealed fundamental characteristics of the vase not revealed in your first photo. Continue exploring all of that!

To add to Kodiak's comments, most people would object to the shadow on the background (not always but in this case) and the detail and uneven lighting in the background.

To understand the impact of light on glass and metal and for ideas about how to avoid the pitfalls and to maximize the beauty of their characteristics, I highly recommend the fourth edition of Light: Science & Magic. Once you understand why the characteristics of glass and metal are affected and revealed by light, you'll also understand how to take advantage of that knowledge.

[Manfred M]

Haseeb - I too would recommend the book Light: Science & Magic, I do have it as well and it is an excellent reference for lighting work. On the other hand, I don't think that the techniques discussed on photographing glass apply to the piece you are trying to shoot.

What makes glass so difficult to shoot is that it is both transparent and reflective. The issue with clear glass is that we have to somehow make the edges stand out and the standard approach here is to either use a black or white surface or light source to bring out the edge.

In both your shot and my shot, the glass is tinted, so it does have a colour that will show up in a shot. The bigger problem is the one of reflections, so using a diffuse light source (which is what a softbox placed close to the subject is), takes care of much of the reflection. I decided to place the light overhead so that the surface of the glass wouldn't pick it up and create unwanted reflections.

The second part I wanted to accomplish was to light things in such a way that there were no shadows and the background was evenly lit. That is why I selected a medium sized softbox (although in retrospect my small one probably would have worked just as well).

Did I get the shot I was trying for; yes I think so, but if you look closely, there is definitely some light drop-off from top to bottom. Of course, as others have pointed out the image is not all that exciting. When I have more time and get better at it, I'll try for something a bit more exciting.

When I look at your first shot, I see multiple white reflections. I assume these are your lights. I don't think you necessarily want this effect. The size of the reflections suggests that the light sources are either very small or very far away. Bring them in closer.

Your second shot, I see very harsh shadows, signs of the light source being very small (a large light source too far away looks quite small). The other issue I see is that you haven't illuminated the background and it looks a bit mottled, so think about how you want to light the background as well as the object you are photographing. You don't necessarily need multiple lights; as you can see, my shot used a single light, although the white seamless did act as a secondary light source (a reflector).

[Mike Buckley]

I don't think that the techniques discussed on photographing glass apply to the piece you are trying to shoot.

I disagree. The book (at least the fourth edition that I recommend) discusses translucent, colored glass, which is what this vase is. Even so, there is no difference in the photographic properties of transparent and translucent glass. The properties of opaque glass are certainly different from transparent and translucent glass as are the properties of transparent and translucent glass containing transparent, translucent and opaque materials. All of that is discussed with ample examples in the book.

The book also discusses photographing metal, which is one of the materials this vase is made of.

[Loose Canon]

Hi Haseeb!

I don’t know much about lighting and photographing glass/metal/reflective/refractive/textured subjects, but I am watching your Thread with great interest.

I’d like to tell you that I find it nothing short of awesome that you are travelling down this road. It is a Road Less Travelled and Endless which makes it all the more cool.

For your first subject you have chosen an extremely difficult task.

I totally admire that!

[Manfred M]

I disagree. The book (at least the fourth edition that I recommend) discusses translucent, colored glass, which is what this vase is. Even so, there is no difference in the photographic properties of transparent and translucent glass. The properties of opaque glass are certainly different from transparent and translucent glass as are the properties of transparent and translucent glass containing transparent, translucent and opaque materials. All of that is discussed with ample examples in the book.


The book also discusses photographing metal, which is one of the materials this vase is made of.

Same edition I own. Feel free to disagree; all I can suggest is that there are different ways to approach the issue. The book is excellent, but certainly not exhaustive, covering every single case.

When I did the studio photography course a few years ago this was a topic we covered and the techniques we used for both glass and metals were different than in the book; effectively we built almost tent-like lighting using small v-flats; black ones on black seamless for dark-field work and white ones on white seamless for light-field shots. The light was positioned over the object being photographed. The idea being that we were trying to get white and black picked up by the edges of the glass. The instructor for the course was a former director of photography for a woodworking and garden tool catalogue company and could photography glass and metal extremely well. If you get a chance, take a look at the Lee Valley Tool catalogue back issues from 10 - 20 years ago; these have become collectors items because of the photography in them. There are a few on Ray's website.

http://www.photographyottawa.com/Lee...ey%20Tools.htm









We did discuss frosted and coloured glass and how to take them during the course. The key features of both types of glass is that they either have their surface altered so that it picks up light or small particles iembedded in the glass that reflect different colours of light. I seem to remember being told (and I could be wrong here) is that the technques for shooting transparent glass do not apply to these as the nature of etched and coloured glass means that they reflect light.

[Mike Buckley]

I don’t know much about lighting and photographing glass/metal/reflective/refractive/textured subjects

Yeah, right! (said in my most facetious tone)

[Mike Buckley]

Great photos, Manfred! Nice seeing them again!

all I can suggest is that there are different ways to approach the issue. The book is excellent, but certainly not exhaustive, covering every single case.

I completely agree, Manfred. I doubt that any book stands up to the rigor of being so exhaustive that it applies to every single case. My disagreement was with your assertion that the techniques discussed in the book don't apply to photographing Haseeb's subject.

[Manfred M]

Nope… the ratio between reflected and transparency lights is too strong in favour
of the first.

Try using a continuous light source to explore your subject. When you find what
you're after, then use the flash from the same position and spread.

The modeling lights in youe Elichrom RX4 D-Lites can be used exactly as Kodiak has suggested. I use the modeling lights in my flashes to get my lights lined up the way I want them and will then fine-tune with test shots. That being said; it works best in a darkened room; the lights have lot less output than the flash tubes.

[Manfred M]

Great photos, Manfred! Nice seeing them again!



I completely agree, Manfred. I doubt that any book stands up to the rigor of being so exhaustive that it applies to every single case. My disagreement was with your assertion that the techniques discussed in the book don't apply to photographing Haseeb's subject.

Mike - Hasseb's bottle is so opaque that I don't feel that treating it like glass aor even normal coloured glass is going to be all that important. Getting good edge contrast and definition is not going to be all that difficult, but fighting the reflections might be. I suspect that the metal(?) bands are going to be problematic as well. Ditto with the background.

He certainly did not start off with the easiest of subjects...

[Loose Canon]

Haseeb?

Might I suggest that if/when you continue to shoot your (very cool I might add) subject that you include bts (behind the scenes) shots of your lighting setup?

Maybe that way the folks offering advice here can focus on what you are actually doing rather than debating amongst themselves theory?

I hope you continue trying for this shot Haseeb. It will be worth it.