A moment for reflection

[Donald]

I would ask members to have a read and take a moment to reflect on what has been written below.

A member has sent me a Private Message asking me to terminate their registration on the forum. They have set out the reasons why. There have been a few threads of late where, I have to admit, I would share the sentiment.

"Everyone has, and should be allowed their own style of posting, but I find the forum is becoming more a place for intolerant argument about hardware and software and less a place to learn to be a better photographer.

I have valued CiC because it is one of the few forums dedicated to photographic skills improvement. At present, however, it seems to be some of the knowledgeable members who, to my mind, are less tolerant of the opinions of others: too much "do it this way; only an idiot would do it any other way" rather than "try this, it works for me, as I can show in this photograph".

CiC has always been fortunate in being amongst the forums in which this is less of an issue than in others. However, we shouldn't be complacent.

I'm not asking for responses, comments. I'm just presenting this as something upon which folk might like to reflect. Thanks for taking the time to read this message.

[dubaiphil]

Death by selective colour?

[Manfred M]

Thanks Donald.

One reason I have stuck with CiC is for the quality and knowledge of the posters BUT having a thick skin helps at times.

There are members with strongly held opinions, and I can respect that as well, but they should admit that there is room for other views on the subject as well. One thing that people don't seem to realize is that there is almost ALWAYS more than one right answer or more than one approach to solving an issue, and personal attacks if someone disagrees with your opinion should NEVER be tolerated.

It's always sad when somebody leaves when they feel harassed or bullied. People really should re-read their comments before posting them; poorly chosen words can hurt and offend.

[AB26]

Just as we were about to find out who will be King on the Iron Throne.

[chauncey]

Donald, I choose to make a comment...what's the motivation in contacting you in order to "terminate
their registration on the forum" as opposed to just ceasing their activity herein?

One should not insert themselves in any type of an on-line forum of an international nature without having the "thick skin", as Manfred so aptly phrased it. A popular phrase now-a-days is "Man up"

However, it is often remiss of me to recall that times do change, ponder this from an elderly person...
whining to the principal about little Johnny teasing me would have led to my humiliation for all eternity.
Now it's called harassment...go figure.

[AB26]

To be serious:
On any internet forum you need to read whatever will not offend you and avoid reading anything that might be offensive.

Photography is pretty controversial and many different personalities are “photographers”.

To whomsoever the lady might be: Stick with CiC and learn from the positive. Ignore whatever you cannot learn from. If you need a Rhino skin, please don’t come poach one?

Smile and the whole world smiles with you, cry and the whole world smiles at you.

[Donald]

Will people never learn. Accept that what some of you write can be interpreted as unhelpful/aggressive/rude. Don't seek to justify it. Just don't do it.

I for one am very pleased that the person contacted me to express their concern. It demonstrates that people are affected by what some people choose to write instead of them disappearing silently without us knowing why.

If people cannot comprehend that basic point, then I feel sorry for them.

Why should you need to have a thick skin to take part in a photography forum? The question is rhetorical.

[DanK]

I have to disagree with Chauncey and Andre. Yes, we can all try to have thick skins and ignore posts that cross the line. However, I agree with the unnamed person who withdrew that the tone of some threads on CiC has changed in recent months, and not for the better. I have seen a number of cases where people goaded others, used pointless ad hominem language, and bullheadedly stuck to positions just to try to win an argument. In some cases, the effect of this--other than offending some people and putting off others--has been to hijack what otherwise would have been a civil and instructive thread.

I'm not saying that we should sanitize what we write. I value CiC in part because people give frank responses, including both good criticism of images and responses to incorrect information. But frank need not become uncivil. And part of a productive frank exchange is recognizing when others know something that you don't, and accepting the information (or even thanking them for it!) rather than trying to win the argument at all costs.

[Mark von Kanel]

Not attract comments? not much chance of that!

I still believe CIC to be the best forum for photography out there and i believe it so strongly that its the only one im a member of. I am without doubt very opinionated but try to always temper my comments with good as well as bad comments and to keep them constructive.

People will always have differing opinions and if your on a forum asking for advice or opinions then you have to take them at face value. at the moment under new posts most of the threads are about images not pp or hardware, but it has to be remembered that both of these subjects are very much part of photography. If your not interested in these areas skip the threads.

There is a point where being on a forum becomes absolutely pointless. Its kind of like the new rules in schools where kids arnt allow to lose.... How does that prepare them for real life? They will soon start to lose when they leave school! Nobody should ever be set up to fail, but at some point we all do, the best i can hope for is that when i do fail that you guys n gals, will pick me up, dust my off and encourage me in the right direction, instead of just laughing and taking the P**S!

I personally know of several togs who only post their work wher they will definatly get OOOOHHH's and AAAAHHHH's and they just arnt improving or learning, shur their work is ok but not beyond improvement given the correct advice and criticism.

If your on a forum you have to expect not to agree with everybody and you have to learn to live with differing opinions. Life is just like that and it will never change. Having said that, you will not find a more balance and constructive forum than here and if you dont like it on here your not going to like it anywhere.

my 2 penneth!

[dabhand]

..........big snip

If your on a forum you have to expect not to agree with everybody and you have to learn to live with differing opinions. Life is just like that and it will never change. Having said that, you will not find a more balance and constructive forum than here and if you dont like it on here your not going to like it anywhere.

my 2 penneth!

Mark - There seems to be a self-perpetuating myth on the internet that it is acceptable in a forum to adopt an approach to discussion which is inconsistent with that in normal society, it is not. To quote Donald - "Why should you need to have a thick skin to take part in a photography forum?"

Of course, differing opinions are absolutely fine and seeing an alternative view on an issue can in some cases bring about change and there are certainly those on this forum whose work, thoughts and opinions I find interesting because they are capable of presenting their view without demeaning those of others and without hijacking threads just to trot out their particular bias or self proclaimed 'expertise'.

steve

[Mark von Kanel]

Mark - There seems to be a self-perpetuating myth on the internet that it is acceptable in a forum to adopt an approach to discussion which is inconsistent with that in normal society, it is not. To quote Donald - "Why should you need to have a thick skin to take part in a photography forum?"

Of course, differing opinions are absolutely fine and seeing an alternative view on an issue can in some cases bring about change and there are certainly those on this forum whose work, thoughts and opinions I find interesting because they are capable of presenting their view without demeaning those of others and without hijacking threads just to trot out their particular bias or self proclaimed 'expertise'.

steve

Steve i understand that and its not a myth that i agree with, just because you relatively anonymous doesnt mean that that you can say anything theat you would not have said to them in person.

What i mean to say and did say that if you are on a forum you are there to learn/teach and interact, its no use getting upset because opinions differ, ive seen many a heated discussion in the pub, it doesnt stop people going back in! and just because you walk into the said pub and everyboddy is drinking lager it doesnt mean you cant have a babycham.... nor does that give the right of the larger drinkers to belittle you. `we all have to drink together so lets just drink..... ill buy the next round

There is no answer to this problem and as ive said CIC keeps a tight lid on it (as much as they can) it doesnt help that its all done in type and we dont really know each other... ive again experienced many an upset over a missing smiley or even a comma /full stop. Conversations on here could be held quite equitably in person just because you can see the other persons face and body language. People need to keep this in mind when reading posts and people writing need to remember those smiles!

Anyway im saying no more on this, i dont belive anyone should be abusive to others. but lifes too short to take offense by somebody being bombastic on a forum.

[dabhand]

ill buy the next round

Good-oh, mine's an orange juice.

steve

[flashback]

I think I know what the problem is...Section 21 of the Strange Sketch Act

[The Blue Boy]

Donald,

Sorry mate but I've got to comment.

I've been scratching my head for about an hour over this. I'm utterly baffled. I've been stuck at home for the last two months (supervising builders) and I've been reading the forums almost daily. I've not seen any comment directed at anyone that could be called out. Whilst there have been some technical disagreements, I've seen nothing but banter.

Whilst it might be said I've the skin of a rhino, I think all in all, CiC's in very good shape.

[Mike Buckley]

Donald,

My experience is that when a group, especially a large group such as the number of people posting messages here, is addressed to point out behavior that is less than desirable, almost everyone if not everyone assumes others are the cause of the problem. The only viable solution in my mind to the issue that you are bringing to light is for management to clarify the site's Code of Conduct and to individually contact the person who too frequently posts messages that don't comply. If a person has to be frequently reminded, that person's privileges should initially be temporarily revoked. If doing so doesn't solve the problem, the person's privileges should be permanently revoked.

[Kodiak]

I think I know what the problem is...Section 21 of the Strange Sketch Act

Brilliant… thanks Jack!

[krispix]

I tend to agree with The Blue Boy.

When a question is posted on CiC the (helpful) responses are generally legion. However, when an opinion is voiced is when the responses may get a little closer to the bone.

This is, of course, the problem when one airs an opinion. Many are not going to agree and will take an alternative stance, sometimes robustly.

Naturally, that's just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

[skilsaw]

However, it is often remiss of me to recall that times do change, ponder this from an elderly person...
whining to the principal about little Johnny teasing me would have led to my humiliation for all eternity.
Now it's called harassment...go figure.

I wish you old guys would pipe down if you don't know what you are talking about.

Now it is called BULLYING. There. Now that I've had my say and put you in your place I can wear my big hat because it fits my big head.

[Donald]

I intend to say no more on this thread, other than:-

To be serious:
On any internet forum you need to read whatever will not offend you and avoid reading anything that might be offensive.

How do you know it's going to be offensive until you read it? Perhaps the onus is on the writer not to be offensive in the first place.

To whomsoever the lady might be

Why assume it was a female? It wasn't.

I think things would proceed more amicably if we didn't blame the victim and, instead, engaged on some self-reflection about our communication style.

As I stated above, I will not come into this thread any further, but leave it to the conscious of individuals to consider if what they write is reasonable. I am not an advocate of all holding hands and smiling at each other. There must be robust debate or we never stretch our knowledge and learning and move forward. But that is very different from what I have been writing about. If some people don't get that, then ..........!

[dubaiphil]

Incidentally tucked away in the Forum Actions drop down, under General Settings, there is the functionality to set up an ignore list.