Nikon DX Event Photography Lens - on a budget

[D L]

I am looking for a lens to use for event type photography. e.g. A niece's 21st or a sister-in-law's wedding reception. Not as official/professional photographer, just trying to take nice photos for people when there is no pro (or they have gone home). I'm not talking about setting up a booth, I'm talking about roaming the party.

Context/Equipment
I have Nikon D3000 and SB-400 flash ( and 18-55mm and 55-200mm kit lenses). I have never shot a picture with an aperture less than f/3.5 of those lenses. I've never used a prime. I'm going to give the Yongnuo 565EX (did I mention budget) a go to learn a bit more about flash. I'm not sure if I'll get it off camera at an event like I mentioned above. Bounced, on a bracket or maybe hand held. In future I might look to push to a newer/better crop frame camera in order to push the ISO, but I think a lens is probably first order of business.

Current Options:
I am looking at the Nikon 35mm f/1.8 DX and also the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 EX DC OS HSM

Any user feedback/anecdotes on these lenses, particularly on a Nikon crop frame, would be appreciated.

Specific questions:
1. Maximum aperture: What would I really be using the f/1.8 for at this type of event? The artistic feature of that aperture, or the light capturing ability? Will I use that aperture much at all? Will I miss it in the f/2.8 zoom? Will I seriously dig the f/1.8 for natural light portraiture (obviously not part of the brief I specified, but that is an interest)
2. Stabilisation: Will the gain in light gathering of the f1/8 be lost in the possible need for a faster shutter speed due to lack of "OS" (VR or whatever else you want to call it)?
3. Zoom: Is the convenience of a zoom a big deal at an event like those mentioned?

Happy to entertain other lens suggestions. $AU500 price of the zoom is stretching the limit at this stage, so keep that in mind. I am more than happy to look for used lenses to keep the price low.

[Manfred M]

What's wrong with the lenses that you already have? They pretty well cover the whole gamut of shooting range of what you would be looking for in event work. I own these two lenses and while they are now on permanent "loan" to my daughter, I would stick to those two as the price is righ.

I personally would stay away from a prime lens for event work, unless I was trying to do some very specific types of shooting that could only be done with a prime. Yes, the prime will give you a bit more low light flexibility, but you are going to have to make some fairly heavy compositional compromises as you will have to work a lot harder in framing your shots.

While I have a few faster lenses; any event photography I have done, with and without flash, were done with f/2.8 lenses; specifically the f/2.8 24-70mm Nikkor and the f/2.8 70-200mm Nikkor.

My advice to you would be to try to shoot events with your existing equipment and figure out what limits you are up against, If you consistently find that a specific piece of equipment is causing you not to get the shots you want, then by all means spend the money. Otherwise, you risk the liklihood of acquiring some gear that will not end up being good value for money.

[Shadowman]

If you want to be less intrusive you'll have to opt for f/5.6 on both of those kit lenses, you don't want to be in everyone's faces all night, zoom in for a few sets so everyone can enjoy themselves.

[D L]

I had a good think about your reply, Grumpy. Nothing wrong with those lenses.
Probably more wrong with the equipment located just behind the viewfinder. 😜
Previously I've attempted to shoot these type of events either with aperture priority or shutter priority, auto ttl flash, sometime bounced and auto iso.
Problems have been zero background exposure (well exposed people in a dark cave), long shutter speed with camera shake, general inconsistency shot to shot, etc.
In general I've switched to shooting manual. I haven't had a chance to practice low light event photography since. Practice shots around the house have improved a lot.
I've scoured strobist.blogspot.com and neilvn/tangents I am hoping more understanding of flash and more control of flash will also help.
I guess I am trying to go from below average to excellent in one hit with a few family events coming up.
I'll have a crack with existing gear. Thanks for the advice. I think you also successfully answered the, at least temporarily, redundant lens question. Are your lenses on a full frame camera?

[William W]

I am looking for a lens to use for event type photography. e.g. A niece's 21st or a sister-in-law's wedding reception. . . I'm talking about roaming the party. . . I have Nikon D3000 and SB-400 flash (and 18-55mm and 55-200mm kit lenses).

If you choose to use the Flash then the 18 to 55 that you already have is fine for that shooting scenario.

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I have never shot a picture with an aperture less than f/3.5 of those lenses.

You probably mean ‘more’ (i.e. ‘bigger’) than F/3.5 – but I think that I do understand what you meaning is.

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I've never used a prime.

OK.

So I am thinking that you are considering a Prime Lens to use because of its very Fast Aperture and also considering shooting Available Light Only with that Prime Lens?

But (according to reports and I have NOT used a D3000) your camera is “OK” at ISO 1600 – so any F/1.8 lens will have a relatively limited capacity for low level Available Light Shooting at an Indoor event where there is a Shutter Speed required to arrest Subject Motion Blur, compared to a camera with a capacity to bump to ISO 3200~6400 with little effort.

So whilst I agree that if you idea is to shoot without flash in low level available light at social events a new lens is required, I think probably that a new camera is required also.

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I'm going to give the Yongnuo 565EX (did I mention budget) a go to learn a bit more about flash.

OK.

I am now confused.

You already have an SB-400 (that’s a dedicated Nikon Flash which has tilt capacity and a GN =69 @ ISO 100 and coverage of your 18mm lens) and you are going to buy a Yongnuo 565EX?

WHY? ? ?

The SB400 is not the most powerful toy available, but if my mental arithmetic is reasonably accurate your SB-400 will give you flash as fill, in daylight, at a working distance of about 6~8ft (bump to ISO200~400) and when bounce it off a white card for a Key Light indoors, you can work to about 10~15ft Effective Flash Working Distance.

So IF you want to learn why buy something else to ‘learn with’ when you have an adequate tool already?

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I am looking at the Nikon 35mm f/1.8 DX and also the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 EX DC OS HSM. Any user feedback/anecdotes on these lenses, particularly on a Nikon crop frame, would be appreciated.

I do not use Nikon. But a 35/1.8 or a 17~50/2.8 is going to be very similar when on a Canon APS-C Camera - and I can definitely comment from that perspective.

The 35/1.8 will be a bit longer than a ’normal lens’: I find effective good for outdoors, but too long to be the most versatile FL for indoors on APS-C.

The most often used lens that I use for Available Light, indoors at a Social Event, is a 35/1.4 on a 5D Series (that’s equiv. FoV to about a 24mm lens on your Nikon APS-C Format camera).

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The 17 to 50/2.8 would be very nice for Available Light (but still limited by the Camera's High ISO Capacity in low level light) - but not much of a gain for the $ outlay than what you could already get with your kit lens, if you are using Flash.

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1. Maximum aperture: What would I really be using the f/1.8 for at this type of event? The artistic feature of that aperture, or the light capturing ability? Will I use that aperture much at all? Will I miss it in the f/2.8 zoom? Will I seriously dig the f/1.8 for natural light portraiture (obviously not part of the brief I specified, but that is an interest)

I cannot think of any other MAIN reasons for buying a very fast Prime lens than to use it at or near F/1.8; and the reason for that is: Available Light Photography to achieve -

1. Arrestment of SUBJECT MOTION BLUR

2. Extremely Shallow Depth of Field (and consequently usually nice background blur -aka ‘bokeh’)


Other reasons might include but are not limited to:

Viewfinder brightness

Ability to use a tele-extender

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I have no idea if you will “dig” available light portraiture/photography.

I do – it is the most exhilarating form of Photography, for me.

And not just at Social Events as I have a long collection of Architectural Interiors that I have shot in Available Light (that are not composites).

Have a read of these recent threads if you are interested in only some of my expanded views on this particular topic. In one of those threads you will see one example of several picture stories made with only a 35/1.4 (on 'FF camera') used throughout the entire Wedding, without Flash:

Advice for a new lens

Nice Portrait Lens for Nikon DX

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2. Stabilisation: Will the gain in light gathering of the f1/8 be lost in the possible need for a faster shutter speed due to lack of "OS" (VR or whatever else you want to call it)?

At a Social Event, the VR /OS /IS has limited functional use on the output because one needs an appropriate SHUTTER SPEED to arrest the SUBJECT MOTION. VR / OS / IS tends to be more useful at longer FL for this particular shooting scenario.

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3. Zoom: Is the convenience of a zoom a big deal at an event like those mentioned?

Yes.

But I like working with Primes.

But I was taught how to use Primes, because that’s all I had to use.
And I think of and use as a zoom as “a multiple stack of Primes” when I use a Zoom Lens anyway.

That is to say, my procedure is that: I choose the camera Viewpoint to achieve the PERSPECTIVE of THE SHOT and then I choose the FOCAL LENGTH of the lens to achieve the FIELD OF VIEW for THE SHOT.

(apply that comment to your quote "I have never used a Prime" !)

You can easily use a Prime Lens if you really want to, as you have several of them in your two zoom lenses.

If you need assistance to avoid the temptation of playing with that little Zoom Turret - use GAF tape.


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Happy to entertain other lens suggestions. $AU500 price of the zoom is stretching the limit at this stage, so keep that in mind. I am more than happy to look for used lenses to keep the price low.

My advice: for the moment learn to use what you have.

You have good gear – use it and seek to better define what you cannot do with it before you buy anything else.: seek to know what you need to buy something - that is, buy stuff to achieve specific outcome that you cannot achieve with you current gear.

WW

[William W]

. . . Previously I've attempted to shoot these type of events either with aperture priority or shutter priority, auto ttl flash, sometime bounced and auto iso. Problems have been zero background exposure (well exposed people in a dark cave), long shutter speed with camera shake, general inconsistency shot to shot, etc.

Research and practice the technique of “Dragging the Shutter”.

The Fundamental Principle of ‘Dragging the Shutter’ is to approach the scene requiring TWO exposures:
> The FLASH exposure for the FOREGROUND (usually people)
> The AMBIENT Exposure for the BACKGROUND

In general I've switched to shooting manual. I haven't had a chance to practice low light event photography since. Practice shots around the house have improved a lot.

Very good work on both counts.

> Manual camera Mode and ride the Flash Exposure Compensation.

> Practice, Practice, Practice as many varied lighting situations as possible.

The Camera and Flash need to become an extension of your hand and brain. Just like “knowing” where the accelerator and brake pedal are on your car - and “knowing” how much force to apply for that next corner – and if you drive a proper car - knowing the clutch, also.

You need to think about the ISO that you choose, such that it will give you the RANGE of Aperture and Shutter Speeds that you require to make the shot.

WW

[William W]

On Camera Flash Fill Indoors, (bounced off a White Card) and Dragging of the Shutter to balance the Ambient Background with the Flash to give a soft ‘fill’ effect:



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On Camera Flash Fill Outdoors (direct Flash) to illuminate the Subjects (fill the shadows) so to balance their exposure with the bright daylight and the sky in the background:



WW

[ajohnw]

It sounds like the OP needs to read up on flash power against distance rather than buy more kit.

Flash can only provide the correct illumination at a set distance. TTL flash allows that distance to vary but items in front of people for instance will receive more light and things behind them less. There is no magic solution to this other than the use of more than one flash or not to use flash at all. For event snap shots multiple flash is unlikely to be an option. It's more of a studio type thing.

No flash means accepting camera and user limitations - how steady you can hold the camera and how good the vibration reduction is and how quickly the subject is moving. - then comes how high an ISO you can use / how wide an aperture on the lens can be used. Depth of field can be a problem even at F2.8.

How high an ISO to some extent comes down to what software and post processing skills are available. One simple answer to that to some extent is to shoot jpg's and use the cameras own noise removal which can be surprisingly good. The use of D light on Nikon cameras can also help with this sort fo shooting. What people who are starting can do is shoot best jpg plus raw and set themselves the task of developing raw files to a better standard than the camera own jpg's. with it's bells and whistles on. Even shooting some on full auto to see what the camera can do and what sort of choices it makes. This is likely to be more productive than trying to work purely in raw from day one.

If you want to buy a lens specifically to improve these aspect your in a hard place. Nikon make a gold ring = pro grade crop F2.8 lens similar to your 18-55mm but no VR and rather expensive. The one I would look at is the Tamron SP AF 17-50mm F/2.8 XR Di II VC LD Aspheric This is a crop camera lens that for this range of lens is modestly priced. I also reckon it would be a good improvement in other ways on your current lens and wont add an excessive amount of weight to your kit.

John
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[rpcrowe]

1. For "event" type shooting with bounced flash, I would definitely consider a zoom with an f/2.8 aperture. The f/2.8 will allow you to balance the foreground subjects (lit by flash) while still keeping decent exposure for the background in order to avoid a "black hole" type of image. The zoom will give also you more control regarding framing in a crowded situation...

2. Another very critical factor is the low light focusing capability. Even though most (perhaps all) hotshoe flashes have a flash assist light, it is still nice to have a camera/lens combination which will enable you to focus fast and accurately. As far as I am concerned, I would not consider manual focus for this type of shooting. I would definitely research the lens you purchase to endure that it will give you maximum auto focus capability with the camera you plan to use. As an example, I find that I can function better in low light situations with my Canon 17-55mm f/2.8 IS lens (on my 7D camera) than I can with my Canon 50mm f/1.8 prime lens. This is primarily because the zoom has far better low light focusing capability and the 50mm is not all that great wide open. To get the best IQ, I need to stop down to at least f/2.8 on the 50mm thereby negating its value as a low light lens. The framing capability of the zoom is another positive factor...

3. Another thought regarding shooting with a very fast lens. When shooting at f/1.4 or even f/1.8, your DOF is pretty razor thin. You really have to be careful regarding the DOF you require for any shot!

[AB26]

David,
Before making any sort of decision, go to Neil Van Niekerk’s site and see what he has to say about flash.
http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-pho...hy-techniques/

Get yourself a FLASH before you start changing lenses. Nikon SB 700 or a Phottix Mitros should do it for you. The SB 400 is not much more than an in camera flash.

[D L]

Wow, thanks for all the helpful replies. Sorry for the lack of response, I didn't realise how cut-off I was going to be on my travels.
Bill and John, mentioning another flash I think just confused the issue. I wanted to mention what gear I had, but the purchase of the other flash wasn't related to this topic. The power of the SB-400 has not been a limiting factor. I won't go into the purchase of the other flash in order to stay on topic.
Andre, I have read a lot of neilvn.com/tangents and taken in a lot of that. The new flash will give me a bit more flexibility with bouncing the flash as per his advice.

Bill (and everyone), I think I need to just practice more for now. I was finding ISO 1600 (and sometimes ISO 800) too grainy on my camera and getting frustrated. I have recently read somewhere that this may have to do with the in camera jpeg processing on my camera. I mostly shot raw on my recent travels but not at ISO 1600, so I'll still have to test that theory. John, you also allude to this in post-processing skills and software, my most under-developed skill set.
In answer as to whether I wanted go available light only, that was part of the thinking with the 35mm f/1.8. If not, minimising the amount of flash used.
In terms of dragging the shutter, I haven't really done that as I have been using TTL metering for the flash while manually selecting shutter speed, ISO and aperture. However, I think I have effectively done that recently by getting the background exposed to my liking, then adjusting the flash exposure compensation to expose the subject.

So to tie this up I think my course of action is:
1. Practice low lighting, high(er) ISO photography
2. Get some post-processing skills.
Once I've gotten a bit more practice on those fronts, then my first limiting factor to replace would be
3. Get a camera with higher ISO capability (which I think is pretty much any dSLR released since my Nikon D3000)
If that still limits me
4. Look at Tamron 17-50mm or Sigma 17-50mm (both are made for APS-C sensors).

Again, thanks for all the advice and knowledge. This post shouldn't really have been in the cameras and equipment section as its ended up mostly about technique. I'll come back here once I've reached step 4 on the list above

[inkista]

You already have an SB-400 (that’s a dedicated Nikon Flash which has tilt capacity and a GN =69 @ ISO 100 and coverage of your 18mm lens) and you are going to buy a Yongnuo 565EX?

WHY? ? ? ...

No swivel. So, all the light has to be on-axis (even bounced) and cannot be changed. And if the OP wants a flash to learn off-camera lighting later (which sounds likely), the SB-400 has no way to access manual control off-camera.

OTOH, the just-out Pixel Mago is US$90.

[William W]

. . .You already have an SB-400 (that’s a dedicated Nikon Flash which has tilt capacity and a GN =69 @ ISO 100 and coverage of your 18mm lens) and you are going to buy a Yongnuo 565EX? WHY? ? ?

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. . . No swivel. . . .

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. . . The new flash will give me a bit more flexibility with bouncing the flash. . .

Thanks. I understand.

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. . . I think I need to just practice more for now. I was finding ISO 1600 (and sometimes ISO 800) too grainy on my camera and getting frustrated. I have recently read somewhere that this may have to do with the in camera jpeg processing on my camera. I mostly shot raw on my recent travels but not at ISO 1600, so I'll still have to test that theory. John, you also allude to this in post-processing skills and software, my most under-developed skill set. . .

I agree that shooting raw ia a better idea than shooting JPEG only;
I also agree that getting better at Post production is a good idea;
But I still strongly advise that you not underestimate how much any UNDEREXPOSURE when using high ISO will increase the perceptible noise (grain).

WW

[D L]

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But I still strongly advise that you not underestimate how much any UNDEREXPOSURE when using high ISO will increase the perceptible noise (grain).

WW

Guilty. You got me again! I was just yesteday trying to rescue an underexposed ISO 800 shot and encountering that noise. Thanks to the advice of this forum I'm not underexposing on a nice new lense and still unhapppy with my results.

As an aside, I happenned to discovered that Nikon's "Active D-Lighting" , when turned on, will cause the camera to deliberately underexpose -2/3 EV, and then recover with jpeg processing (to avoid blown highlights etc.). This auto-underexposure obviously only applies when any of the auto modes are being used, which is what I have used for a long time. Connecting the dots with your comment about under-expsure at high ISO, I now know this is partially where my unhappiness with low light photography comes from. (the rest of my problems being in lack of knowledge and technique)
My recent underexposure effort was purely a result of inexperience getting the correct manual exposure settings dialled in quickly for a given situation (practice, practice, practice...)

[jcuknz]

David with regard to point #2 in message 11 ....PP experience ... the only advantage of the fast lens is that and it takes skill to make it work for you is the limited DoF when working wide open. The extra light it passes can be obtained with your current lenses by either upping the ISO or raising the levels in PP and staying at the wide end of the zoom to maximise the aperture available to you. Though since you can only go to 1600 ISO I wouldn't rate the camera as particularly wonderful and you might be able to find a Panasonic G3 MFT camera to fit in your budget which will happilly work at 3200 ISO for 'event' photography as I found at 2am one morning, I'm pretty sure a Olympus Pen would do the same or better. It probably has a 28-84 zoom [14-42 acrtual] which would cover the angles of view you need and despite the slow aperture f/4-f/5.6 the ISO compensates for that.
Frankly just becuase the pro's will be using DSLRs doesn't mean you need to and a small light camera like a P&S but with nearly the quality of the APS-C and faster ISO than you have is what you need.

A maveric opinion for sure but based on my three years with MFT [ and so much event photograhy in the past that I don't really want to touch it ]and normally working by ambient light.
Since working with a 'fast' lens at max aperture is skilled work I wouldn't suggest you enter that field until you have a lot more experience and know you really need to do it.

[D L]

Since working with a 'fast' lens at max aperture is skilled work I wouldn't suggest you enter that field until you have a lot more experience and know you really need to do it.

John, that sounds like more good advice.

As to switching to a point and shoot, the original driver behind the dSLR purchase was some (I still believe to be good) advice that the fast auto-focus of these cameras would be useful for photographing the kids. That is still the main use of this camera, so I'll stick with it for now. Given that I haven't been doing much right at ISO 800 or 1600, to this point, I'll persist with this camera. I guess once I find the ISO limiting, I'll consider whether the ISO upgrade should be done with a newer dSLR or a P&S. I certainly have no aversion to any particular camera type.

[William W]

. . . I'll persist with this camera. I guess once I find the ISO limiting, I'll consider whether the ISO upgrade should be done with a newer dSLR or a P&S. . .

Logical. Very logical.

A helluva lot can be achieved at ISO 1600 and an F/2.8 zoom lens – maybe a bit of hard work behind the camera - but you’ll learn a great deal, just by doing it.

WW