Auto-ISO - inadequately implemented?

[Dave Humphries]

Is it just me that feels that all (? - correct me if I am wrong) camera manufacturers have badly implemented the Auto-ISO feature.

At the moment, I don't use it - and that's mainly because turning it on and off is certainly not intuitive, nor even that easy to do quickly.

The mode dial on all (?) cameras usually has the standard options (there might be others):
M = Manual
A/Av = Aperture Priority (semi-auto)
S/Tv = Shutter Priority (semi-auto)
P = Program (arguably auto, with a tad of control possible)
Auto = Fully Auto (or 'lucky dip' as I think of it!)

Since the use of Auto-ISO, being the third of four parameters affecting exposure, is becoming so common, why can't the manufacturers give us a mode dial with an "I" position (or perhaps "Iv" if Canon)?

That way, I would know when I have control of shutter, aperture and ISO (in M mode) or when I am happy to let the camera do the ISO - and I'd also know when I would need to use EC to affect exposure 'on the fly'.


I did wonder whether a third control wheel might be needed, that might be handy, but not essential, because with a few additional menu options to allow configuration of the existing two wheels to cover the parameters individual users feel are the most important (to them), it can be done well enough, I believe.

I do appreciate that when Auto-ISO is used in combination with other semi-auto modes, it gives a wider operational exposure range, e.g. when combined with pre-configured minimum shutter speeds to avoid camera shake when the light falls too low for to support the selected aperture in A/Av, or M, modes.

What do members of CiC think - is a mode dial with P, A, S, I, M positions a good idea?


As I say, I don't use Auto-ISO (on my D7100), since I don't feel I am in sufficient control, I can cope with keeping an eye on shutter speed when shooting in A/Av mode, but if two sets of figures start changing automatically - and I don't notice - I fear I'll get unexpected results.

Perhaps it is just me and a lack of recent shooting experience.
I do now (more often than not) use back button focusing (aka AF-ON), although it isn't always the right tool for the job, it depends on the subject matter and shooting scenario.
So perhaps, as with getting used to back button focusing, it is something I just need to persist with until I get the hang of it.

However, the control freak inside me still thinks that, for consistency, having an "I" mode is a good idea

Discuss ....

[jprzybyla]

Hi Dave, I read your post and still contemplating your thoughts. That said, I use nothing but Auto-ISO. Shooting birds I want to control shutter speed and aperture. The first for freezing motion and the second for depth of field, what the ISO does I don't care about. If the exposure is correct the ISO doesn't matter. It is underexposed images that have noise that cannot be handled in post processing. Most times if I do not have highlights to worry about blowing (such as a white bird or white on a bird) I am exposing for the shadows where noise always lurks. The cameras now have such great high ISO performance it is a shame not to use it.

[dubaiphil]

I'm not so sure about using P, A, S, I, M myself but I use Auto ISO pretty much all of the time as well. I have customisable buttons on the front and rear of my camera and I would like the option to be able to set one to:

Press down and use the shutter dial to adjust minimum shutter speed, viewable through the viewfinder and top plate LCD.

There are quite a lot of times in challenging light when I'd like to reduce my min shutter speed quickly to reduce my ISO and improve IQ. For example I may be shooting people in motion at a min speed of 1/100th at ISO3200 and then notice a stationary subject or scene in lower light - either a) I take the shot with the same settings but at maybe ISO6400 or b) I go into my menu through the rear screen and lower the min shutter speed (this can take up to 15 seconds with practise) before shooting at 1/30th and around ISO2000.

Now if the moment is fleeting then the shot is potentially lost.

However by customising a button and shutter dial movement I could reframe, assess and adjust Auto ISO through the viewfinder within a couple of seconds.

[dubaiphil]

Not having said all that I may have the ability to do this already - I'll have to check my manual!

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Joe, Phil,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I do usually seem to have bits of white on a bird, so am keen not to blow those and find that in certain rapidly re-framing shooting situations (perhaps with birds rising against different luminance backdrops) I suddenly find Aperture Priority is not working for me - I'd rather have full Manual control, in order to "fix" the exposure. To achieve this, all I need do is rotate the mode dial and I am in M, with complete control of my fixed exposure. (Auto-ISO off)

If I were shooting in M to control both aperture and shutter speed, as Joe does and I have Auto-ISO on, in the above situation, wouldn't I have to go into the menus to turn off Auto-ISO? (as Phil relates) to get my full manual control back?

It seems to me that an "I" mode option would remove this need?

That said; it has just occurred to me that actually, the logic of my suggestion is inverted.
In A mode we control the aperture, in S mode we control the shutter speed, so perhaps the new option should be called "AS" mode (or ATv or TAv for Canon)?

"TAv" sounds familiar, is that what Canon call P mode on some models perhaps?

[William W]

. . . What do members of CiC think - is a mode dial with P, A, S, I, M positions a good idea? . . .

On the face of it: No. Definitively No. Especially for Nikon DSLR’s.

What I understand it is that you are hypothesizing is:
“I” Mode will be the equivalent of “Manual Mode with Auto ISO engaged.”

The salient point when using ANY OF the “Automatic Modes” (i.e. S/Tv; A/Av or P/P) is that (most) Photographers require EC (Exposure Compensation) to address a situation when they know it is a lighting scenario which will fool the TTL Meter to achieve the OUTCOME that the Photographer requires.

At the moment (as far as I know) - ALL Nikon Cameras with Auto ISO allow Exposure Compensation when the Camera is in M (Manual Mode) and when “Auto ISO” initiated.

But EC is impossible with any Canon DSLR’s in Manual Mode when Auto ISO is selected.

But I do not think that the answer for Canon is to invent an “I” Mode, but rather to have an allocation on the bodies to allow the use of Exposure Compensation when “Auto ISO” is selected in concert with “M” Mode

On the other side of the coin, there are several advantages of using “Auto ISO” - IN CONJUNCTION WITH one of the other Camera Modes (Tv; Av; P) – some of these have already been outlined above.

WW

[William W]

. . . If I were shooting in M to control both aperture and shutter speed, as Joe does and I have Auto-ISO on, in the above situation, wouldn't I have to go into the menus to turn off Auto-ISO? (as Phil relates) to get my full manual control back? . . .

I don't think so.

I am lead to beleive that you can use Exposure Compensation on your Nikon.

Would you be so kind as to please confirm that?

WW

[Dave Humphries]

What I understand it is that you are hypothesizing is:
“I” Mode will be the equivalent of “Manual Mode with Auto ISO engaged.”

Yes Bill, although I since realised that "I mode" is 'inverted logic', so renamed it "AS mode", since that describes the functionality.

At the moment (as far as I know) - ALL Nikon Cameras with Auto ISO allow Exposure Compensation when the Camera is in M (Manual Mode) and when “Auto ISO” initiated.

Agreed, in Manual it biasses the meter reading only and has no effect on exposure.
I would hope that with Auto-ISO on, it does have an effect on exposure, by changing the ISO the camera has chosen to achieve normal EC functionality.

But EC is impossible with any Canon DSLR’s in Manual Mode when Auto ISO is selected

Wow, that seems (to me) a really silly thing when the camera is automatically changing something, not to be able to override it.

But I do not think that the answer for Canon is to invent an “I” Mode, but rather to have an allocation on the bodies to allow the use of Exposure Compensation when “Auto ISO” is selected in concert with “M” Mode

I still have the desire for an "I" mode, now renamed "AS" mode, whether Canon or Nikon.
As above, yes Canon really should allow EC when Auto-ISO (in M) is on.

The salient point when using ANY OF the “Automatic Modes” (i.e. S/Tv; A/Av or P/P) is that (most) Photographers require EC (Exposure Compensation) to address a situation when they know it is a lighting scenario which will fool the TTL Meter to achieve the OUTCOME that the Photographer requires.

Absolutely - I'd just like to be able to turn it off quickly too, not have to dive into menus.
Perhaps Phil will come back with a way to do this, or may be I will - I'll get the manual for my D7100 out after lunch.

Thanks for your contribution to the thread, I have learnt things already.

[Dave Humphries]

I don't think so.

I am lead to believe that you can use Exposure Compensation on your Nikon.

Would you be so kind as to please confirm that?

I also believe this too, but my 'request' was not just to be able to use EC in M+Auto-ISO, it was to be able to go "fixed exposure" Manual very quickly.

[dubaiphil]

I missed a point c) on my original post, Dave.

c) being to have different custom banks set up with differing min shutter speeds on Auto ISO, and dive in to change bank quickly. That's still slower than a custom function button option if it was available.

You have User Profiles on a D7100? You should be able to set things up there if so.

On a positive note I've found a very useful way of over-clocking my D700 to get 8FPS without using AA batteries or a D3 battery while searching to see if my ideal solution already exists (by using bracketing and setting it up for 'flash only' while keeping the on board flash down. 8FPS for 9 shots will be very useful when trying to get in focus shots from the hip of moving subjects at close range and shallow DoF

[William W]

I also believe this too, but my 'request' was not just to be able to use EC in M+Auto-ISO, it was to be able to go "fixed exposure" Manual very quickly.

.

Yes. I understand.

But what I am saying is that: IF you have EC then you can, very quickly go to the "Fixed Exposure very quickly" to suit per your own interpretation of any lighting scenario.

Maybe a practical example would assist to clarify my point. . .

You are taking a Portrait using only Available Light. It is a FULL LENGTH SHOT with a bit of air above, and a bit of grass below the Subject. You are in Manual Mode (no Auto ISO). You are using MATRIX MODE Metering. The Subject is TOTALLY BACKLIT.

You know that the Matrix Metering will be fooled and you have to open up one stop on your camera to make the Skin Tones correctly exposed. So, in the viewfinder the little LED arrow is positioned to 1 stop over exposed.

You make the Photograph. You are happy.

. . .

There is no difference (for a NIKON) if you are in AUTO ISO and also in Manual Mode.

IF you engage AUTO ISO and M Mode - to make the same shot and to move to a "Fixed exposure very quickly” . . . all you need to do is extend Exposure Compensation to overexpose by One Stop .

EC is readily available to your finger for the shot (or shots) that require the "fixed exposure".

I am of course assuming that the TTL Meter is the guide by which you are making these "fixed" exposure choices -so it doesn’t matter what mechanism is used to make the exposure "fixed".

This is why Exposure Compensation was invented - to "fix" exposures when the camera was making automatic choices based upon the TTL Meter and the Photographer wanted to 'fix' them to another point.

(But as mentioned on a Canon DSLR, it is impossible to do Auto ISO + M Mode + EC).

WW

[Mike Buckley]

Dave,

I use a Nikon D7000 so I assume anything I can do with it can be done with your D7100. I can confirm Phil's thought that either the U1 or U2 custom profile settings can be configured to automatically use Auto ISO or not. That seems to be your current best solution. Search in your manual for "U1."

I always use Auto-ISO for handheld shots. That's because the ISO value is the least important aspect of the exposure control for me. Not having to manually configure the ISO value is hugely important for me. I either get the shot with a high ISO value or I don't get the shot, which explains why it's the least important aspect for me. Said another way, if I can't get the shot using a low ISO value, I'd rather get it with a high ISO value rather than not get it. If I'm fortunate enough to nail the exposure in a typical scene, there is no noise; I probably experience noise on no more than 1% of my images.

I agree with Phil that I would love to be able to change the Auto ISO's minimum shutter speed using a button on the rear of the camera or programming a button on the front. Even so, I change that minimum shutter speed so often in accordance with whatever prime lens I happen to change to that my brain automatically knows under current circumstances to go to the Shooting Menu, quickly spin the dial until I am in the middle of the third bank of menu options and select the ISO Sensitivity Settings menu.

My complaint is that changing the Auto ISO minimum shutter speed can't be done using My Menu. That can be used only to turn the Auto ISO on and off, not to configure the related settings.

By the way, I also always use back-button focusing for handheld shots. So, I think using certain functions such as that one and Auto ISO has a lot to do with how our brain works; certain things are comfortable or not for each of us.

[JR1]

Never used auto never will I set according to the conditions and what I am shooting

[dubaiphil]

Oh Jeremy, you are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

It's horses for courses really - in fast changing light conditions it can be a dealbreaker not to use it

[JR1]

A Riddle Wrapped in a Mystery Inside an Enigma
"It's a mystery. Broken into a jigsaw puzzle. Wrapped in a conundrum. Hidden in a Chinese box. A riddle."
—The Riddler, The Long Halloween
A Stock Phrase typically used to describe something that is immensely puzzling to figure out or extraordinarily complex to fully understand, often relying on hyperbole and, occasionally, sarcasm.
The phrase is often open to great interpretation and variation. Its three distinct-yet-related nouns allow for a plethora of setups and gags related to The Triple and dependent on the Rule of Three. Frequently, the last item of the phrase is changed to something completely different and irrelevant to mystery for Rule of Funny, and the exact order of what's wrapped and inside what varies with almost every separate occasion the phrase is evoked. Sometimes, one of the three parts may be dropped for gags and line deliveries that require a faster pacing; conversely, additional clauses can be added for greater exaggeration.
The trope name originates from a statement made by Sir Winston Churchill in 1939 about what role Russia might play in World War II:

[JR1]

Oh Jeremy, you are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

It's horses for courses really - in fast changing light conditions it can be a dealbreaker not to use it

Well, no.

I said "I" not that others should not use it

When I shoot sports I set what I want according to the weather conditions which I have never known to change second to second

According to "what" I shoot I will either then set the ap or the shutter speed, depending on hand holding or tripod.

It comes from years of experience, and that is NOT a boast

[Dave Humphries]

EC is readily available to your finger for the shot (or shots) that require the "fixed exposure".

I am of course assuming that the TTL Meter is the guide by which you are making these "fixed" exposure choices -so it doesn’t matter what mechanism is used to make the exposure "fixed".

Hi Bill,

I'm afraid you are still mis-understanding me (but no worries).

When I say a "fixed" exposure, I mean just that (set in stone); e.g. 1/1000s @ f/8 @ ISO 3200.
I do not want the camera to attempt to change it for me in any way, here's why:

Imagine a flock of ducks on a lake, it is an overcast day, but the cloudy sunlight is behind the ducks, as are some large leafy trees. As the ducks scatter and fly off, I follow one/some as they fly across the scene, what's behind the duck changes alternately from bright sky to dark foliage and back again, etc.

Now this changing background actually makes up a large part of the frame content, so it has a big effect on metering and, if I am in any kind of semi-automatic mode, it drastically alters the exposure. However, from where I am, the light falling on the side of the ducks presented to the camera does not change, therefore I want to maintain that predetermined exposure of 1/1000s @ f/8 @ ISO 3200 regardless what goes on.
As I am panning with the ducks;
i) I will be more than busy enough keeping a good composition and timing my release for the subjects in frame
ii) I won't have time to simultaneously 'chase' the auto-ISO with the EC dial
iii) Even if someone suggests spot metering, I am unlikely to be able to keep the focus point on the ducks 100% of the time, so the same issue occurs
I need Manual, real old-fashioned Manual, auto-nothing Manual

This is why Exposure Compensation was invented - to "fix" exposures when the camera was making automatic choices based upon the TTL Meter and the Photographer wanted to 'fix' them to another point.

I probably shoot 80% of the time in a semi-automatic mode and make extensive use of EC to 'fix' the metering errors introduced by atypical scenes, equivalent to what you describe (it is applicable to a perched bird or fairly static shots of ducks swimming on a lake).
However, about 20% of the time, in situations such as I have described above, that just won't do; I need full Manual i.e. auto-nothing!

I can get from A (Aperture Priority) to M (Manual) with a spin of the mode dial, so I use that (with Auto-ISO permanently off).
I agree, it would be nice to be able to select both Aperture and Shutter speed (as Joe does) and let the camera use Auto-ISO for the "80% of the time" when I shoot, but as it is not so quick to turn off, e.g. in that instant when something scares the flock in to the air, I do not use it.


Hi Mike and Phil,

Mike, I agree that the iso is the least important thing (of the three factors) to me too.

I have dabbled with the "U" memories, the problem I found was that it seemed recall 'too much'. For example, there is often some other setting that I have adjusted on the day to the suit the current situation and I have found that when I choose to recall U1, it also resets all the previous (now inappropriate) settings (e.g. a different metering mode, or the Manual exposure settings) along with the desired setting (e.g. Auto-ISO on or off).

I will admit I may have given up too soon, perhaps it is an area I should research more, get to fully understand and practice, before I dismiss it completely. Perhaps I need to prepare more thoroughly by saving a new U1 and U2 each day (or at each change of location or subject) to take account of those other settings that I complain of, ensuring they are also relevant 'today'.

However, if there were an "AS" mode, I wouldn't need to! (sorry, couldn't resist)

Never used auto never will I set according to the conditions and what I am shooting

Perhaps I am cast in Jeremy's mould

[rpcrowe]

With most (40D and later model) Canon DSLR cameras, you have one to three user controlled options on the mode dial (my 40D has three and my 7D has three). I don't know if the other brand cameras have included a user option mode. Using the C-1 to C-3 modes on my cameras, I can set up the camera in any configuration that I desire and return to that set of options with a single twist of the mode dial. This is like having multiple cameras at my finger tips. I set up my parameters and register them before I actually am photographing and then can twist my mode dial to any of the three user selected parameter sets. I don't have to mess with the various parameters within these sets individually.

Auto ISO + Manual Exposure Mode is arguably the best way to implement Auto ISO on Canon 7D and some (perhaps all) later Canon DSLR cameras. Here is a summary of using Auto ISO + Manual Exposure with the Canon 7D. I can set up this parameter set and return to it any time using the mode dial...

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/020...for-canon-slrs

[Mike Buckley]

when I choose to recall U1, it also resets all the previous (now inappropriate) settings (e.g. a different metering mode, or the Manual exposure settings) along with the desired setting (e.g. Auto-ISO on or off).

That explains why I use the following workflow: I maintain a file of "starter" settings on a memory card. At the start of each shoot, I upload those settings just to make sure a changed setting I have forgotten about that was made in a previous shoot is no longer being used in the current shoot. I then use U1 or U2 or neither. Using that workflow, U1 or U2 only makes changes to my "starter" settings that I want to alter.

[AB26]

No Dave, I do not think you need an additional button to set Auto ISO.
Practice it a few times, going into the menu and turning Auto ISO on and off. After a few times you know exactly what to do and how to do it quickly. Use it shooting in Aperture priority mode and see the difference.

When shooting in a semi Auto mode with Auto ISO turned on there is no logical reason to quickly readjust to Auto ISO off. You either shoot with Auto ISO on or off. You know your cameras high ISO capabilities and that is what you use, maximum acceptable high ISO.

Remember, ISO is the last resort a Nikon camera will use to adjust for correct exposure.

~ BBF discussion snipped to a new thread ~