Layer editing software dilemma

[davidedric]

Yet another thread - please bear with me.

I mostly use Lightroom for editing (please pardon the use of the term), but I know there are times when I could do things much more easily with a layers based editor. My expectations would be to do what I can best do in Lightroom, and then pass the image to an external editor. That means I need to do some proper learning of a new tool, and I will choose one of three routes (yes, I know there are other possibilities, but you have to start somewhere). Money isn't a deal breaker whichever route, so it isn't a factor. As you can read below I'm a bit of a software gannet, but then I do enjoy learning new stuff, at least for a while

1. Photoshop. Sign up to CC, and get full Photoshop and Lightroom on a subscription basis. I have downloaded the trial, started with a few instruction videos (off Lynda.com) and am already confused. I expect that if I persisted I would get somewhere, but since it would be only ever for limited use, I'll probably find myself constantly going back to school. Obviously, this is the top end way forward

2. Elements. I already have Elements 11, and I've had versions of Elements for some time. I find the interface more intuitive and accessible than Photoshop. It may just be familiarity, but I don't think that's all it is. On the other hand, much of Elements is 8 bit (though not sure how much that matters if I am doing just limited editing at the end of the process). I also have Elements XXL which unlocks some features, but I've never really got the hang of it. So route 2 would be to stay with / upgrade Elements.

3. OnOne Perfect Photo Suite. I currently have v.8. I do like the programme, and it seems to offer many effective ways to enhance an image, but with a shallower learning curve than Photoshop. This could be a good middle ground. Route 3 would be to upgrade to v.9.

Why keep upgrading? Apart from always wanting the latest gizmo, if I'm going to invest some serious learning effort then it makes sense to me to do on the latest version of the software.

I know it's down to me at the end of the day, but my head is starting to go round and I'd welcome any comments on what I've said, and what anyone with a similar dilemma might have done.

Thanks,

DAve

[xpatUSA]

Yet another thread - please bear with me.

I mostly use Lightroom for editing (please pardon the use of the term), but I know there are times when I could do things much more easily with a layers based editor. < . . >. Money isn't a deal breaker whichever route, so it isn't a factor. As you can read below I'm a bit of a software gannet, but then I do enjoy learning new stuff, at least for a while

< . . >

Haven't heard "gannet" used in that context since I left RAF Halton, 57 years ago !! Though it was Aircraft Apprentice slang exclusively.

As to the question, while I am not an Adobe fan and never have been, my inclination in your case would be to keep Elements - the "evil you know", the "bird in the hand", etc.

[ajohnw]

The only way I have seen it use is such as think I will go and take a gannet at........ to go and look at in other words. Pretty common expression at one time. Also some one who eats a lot - after a fashion.

Maybe some got gannets and ganders mixed up.

John
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[FrankMi]

Hi David, when I started doing PP I did some research and found that although there are some serious exceptions (to the better I might add), that Lightroom would handle the cataloging and basic image-wide non-destructive edits and I would need something else to get serious with selections, masking, and layers. The product with the widest use, the most tutorials, and the best help available was Photoshop.

I didn't need all that Photoshop provides for non-photographers and it is expensive but I only need to learn it once and it will do everything I needed it to do, or so I thought at the time. In the end I got Lightroom 3 and Photoshop CS5. I use mostly CS5 but am starting to appreciate just how much Lightroom is capable of so I will likely change my workflow to start doing more in Lightroom.

Because you already know Elements, it does support layers with add-ins, and upgrading to CS5/6 based on what you know in Elements reduces the total learning curve, if I were in your situation, I'd stick with Elements until I felt that there were compelling reasons to upgrade, then I'd move on to Photoshop if cash is not the issue.

The reason I said 'so I thought' above is that I've since learned that there are benefits to also using Photomatix, Topaz Labs, and external stacking software but that doesn't change what I'd do for selections, masking, and layers with Photoshop.

For me, taking the time to learn the process with the least amount of restrictions and superior available help made the most sense in the long run. Three years later I am still very glad I went that route.

If Layers is your primary reason for wanting to upgrade, then I found "Layers" by Matt Kloskowski to be an easy, yet comprehensive way to learn the subject. Hope this helps!

[chauncey]

Dave, nowhere in your soliloquy did you mention your end game. What are your goals?
The journey between taking pretty pictures and turning those pretty pictures into objects d'art is long.

Where do you want to be one that line...LR will suffice in the beginning, but PS CC will be needed as
you traverse that journey. Plus, that journey is a helluva gas.

There is not an image that I post that has not had severe PS work done to it...way beyond LR.
It would be fair to say that I cannot, without PS, take a pretty picture.

[James G]

Dave,
not sure what to advise, in fact I think maybe I have no advice that can solve your "problem"?

I shifted away from wet chemistry photography about 10 years ago, and started using Elements 2 with my first digital camera.

Once I knew a bit more about the digital process, I decided to try CS2. I then upgraded successively to CS4, CS5, and 'finally' to CS6.

I have not so far been inclined to take advantage of Photoshop CC, because I find that ACR/CS6 gives me most (95%) of the workflow/processing functionality I need.

My observation of the development of Photoshop from CS2 through to CS6 is that it is difficult to see what additional significant Photographic' functionality can be added, that would make a 'traditional' upgrade attractive for the kind of upgrade cost that Adobe traditionally levied. (I suspect that in part, this went into Adobe's switch from perpetual licencing.)

My workflows are relatively simple: -
1) I capture Raw and do the 'bulk' of my image development in ACR. I use CS6 for 'polishing' the image and prepping for final print.

2) I stitch and stack images using PS6 mostly, although I do use Combine Zp as an alternative for stacking macro images quite a lot. ( I still put my raw captures through ACR and output to Tif before passing to Combine Zp , and then finish the stacked image back in CS6)

3) I don't do much HDR and again, I tend to use CS6 as a default. I do have Photomatix, but only really use it with the default settings to generate a tone mapped image back into CS6, even then, I use ACR to 'prepare' source images before putting them through Photomatix.

4) I have got Lightroom 4, I got a free version initially with my graphics tablet, and upgraded it once. I only use it to 'bulk' process large numbers of images, family occasions, etc, and to generate web and PDF presentations.
I suppose if I were interested in learning the wider Adobe Suite I would not use it, but I think I prefer to stick with software aimed at photography rather than graphic design.

So, I seem to have reached a place where I have learnt enough of photoshop that, to a degree, I am no longer interested in 'upgrading' software.
I know there is still a lot of photoshop a could still learn and I suspect though that there may come a point where CS6 might not give me what I want , in which case I may try CC, but I cannot see that happening in the relatively near future.

Bottom line for me is that capturing an image, and rendering it the way I saw / visualised it, is the passion. So far Photoshop happens to be the tool I'm most proficient with in achieving this.
Whether it might be the best for you to follow up on....



James

[chauncey]

I'm unable to argue with what James just said...most, but not all, of my stuff could be handled by CS6.
Providing that you have a copy of CS6 laying around.

[NorthernFocus]

Since you're already using both PS Elements and On One PPS8, I'd stick with one or the other. The only downside of Elements is that you're limited to 8bit processing. For that reason I've been trying to force myself to do everything in PPS. From what I can tell it is fully capable and just needs some time working with it to get familiar with all the tools. I seriously considered making the switch to full blow Photoshop but elected not to set out on yet another learning adventure. Plus I still can't get over the cloud (mental) hurdle...

[rpcrowe]

I have got to admit that I don't like Lightroom, very likely because I never gave it the time to become proficient at it. I lost images quite often and got so frustrated that I stopped using it, In fact, I just erased Lightroom 5 from my computer. I don't like Photoshop Elements either. Actually CS6 seems easier for me to use than either Lightroom or Photoshop Elements. Most likely because of my familiarity with the program!

However, a combination of ACR, Lightroom (if you like it) and PPS8 or PPS9 (for layers and a lot of other neat stuff) seems like a very creditable way to edit...

I use Photoshop CS6 along with PPS8 (I have PPS9 but have not had to time to climb the learning curve) as well as NIK Software for my processing. I will admit that PPS and NIK overlap somewhat but I really enjoy using them. Do I absolutely NEED both or either of these programs along with CS6? Probably not! However, I really have fun using them and they do speed up my work...

I am guessing that if Adobe had purchased NIK instead of Google purchasing it, photographers would be singing the praises of the Control Point technology added to Photoshop and calling it the best thing since sliced bread

I use ACR to open my RAW images. I always shoot in RAW but, frequently need to work on images shot in JPEG by our dog rescue volunteers. I like ACR so well that I will open the JPEG images in ACR...

I use Adobe Bridge to catalog my images and do quite well with that program. However, the Perfect Browse segment of Perfect Photo Suite 9 seems pretty interesting and I just might try it...

[davidedric]

Hi folks,

Thanks for your ideas and input. Having now decided what I'm going to do (at least for now), I thought I'd close the thread off with what and why.

I will be using Lightroom for image management and for the majority of my editing (that was never really in doubt)

I will not be adopting CC/CS. I've been through a few more tutorials, and I just know I will never be fluent enough.

I'll keep Elements 11 (might as well) for one or two specific things, but not upgrade because there is nothing in 12 or 13 that I see myself needing for the limited use I plan.

I will invest some serious effort in PPS9. There is a learning curve, but I think I can handle it. One big thing for me is the "Smart Photo" option in v.9. This allows me to store the changes made by PPS in an editable form in my Lightroom catalogue. (It would be great if Nik adopted the same approach). Only downside is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of tutorial material available for v.9

FWIW I also had a look at Topaz ReMask. It looked a nice tool if I were doing industrial amounts of masking, but not needed by me.

Cheers,

Dave

[Mike Buckley]

Here's to your decision working out really well for you!

[jcuknz]

I couldn't afford PS when I wanted a serious editor, in pre-Elements days, and went for the cheaper Paint Shop Pro which these days with versions X6 [ mine] and latest X7 is pretty capable and if you went there I would think a danger could be that you don't bother with LR in due course .... I couldn't hack LR becuase just about every file I handle needs [ or I use] layers in some degree.
While a knowledge of PS is desirable if you are in the business or have dealings with them that use it for the person working on their own you will find PSP meets all your needs, and more ... I am sure that I only use 10% of what it offers me ... if that. .