Eating my words, asking about speedlights

[bambleweeney]

John,
ok, if it's a large gym then you'll lose some power with bounce so you'll want some ... oomph (technical term) as the ceiling is going to be pretty high unless you bounce off a wall. Also depends on the size of the group to some extent.
The reason for bounce is to replace your little flash head with a large reflective surface for softer light, another more controllable way of doing this is to put your flash on a stand and use a reflective or shoot through umbrella which spreads light really nicely - still costs you power but possibly less than bouncing off of a ceiling. Advantage you can position the flash for the best light whereas you can't really move a ceiling around so much.
If this is going to be a regular scenario (and assuming available power outlets) I'd go for a studio flash and maybe use a speedlight or two for fill. A studio flash need not be as expensive as you think. I got a couple of Lencarta units (if they're still in business), inexpensive (cheaper than a lot of speedlights), predictable/consistent light quality and reliable. Ok they cut costs somewhere, the finish is ok, the build quality is ok but I wouldn't throw exactly throw them around. All my flashes probably total about the price of a dedicated Nikon flash. In addition to the flashes I 'justified' the price of a good flash/incident light meter (a Sekonic) which I use nearly all of the time and which totally nails flash (or most other) exposures and which I find indespensible.
I emphasise that this is what works for me (I shoot mainly landscape with occasional studio stuff) and I can light more or less anything (bright midday summer sun is a bit of a challenge apart from fill flash).

[Manfred M]

Paul,

Thanks for the response. I was thinking of a scenario where the above would be relevant and shooting a group portrait in a gymnasium would be a good example where you would want to maximum the intensity of bounce flash.

John - bounce in a gymnasium? It would have to be a very small gym with a very low ceiling for that to work. Speedlights have relatively low power output; I would guess that my SB-900 is probably in the 80 W-s range. Throw that up at a 30 ft+ ceiling and it will eat up your light and there won't be a lot to bounce back (the inverse square law). Sure you can use the walls, but the person closest to the wall will be washed out and the one farthest away will quite underexposed.

I'd go for studio lights with a large light modifier (direct lighting) in that type of scenario.

[Shadowman]

John - bounce in a gymnasium? It would have to be a very small gym with a very low ceiling for that to work. Speedlights have relatively low power output; I would guess that my SB-900 is probably in the 80 W-s range. Throw that up at a 30 ft+ ceiling and it will eat up your light and there won't be a lot to bounce back (the inverse square law). Sure you can use the walls, but the person closest to the wall will be washed out and the one farthest away will quite underexposed.

I'd go for studio lights with a large light modifier (direct lighting) in that type of scenario.

Manfred,

Yes about 30ft high with a group of about thirty to fifty people about five deep. I'd want to light everyone equally.

[Manfred M]

Manfred,

Yes about 30ft high with a group of about thirty to fifty people about five deep. I'd want to light everyone equally.

I suspect you might be into something along these lines...

93 subjects, 5 hot shoe flashes.

[William W]

. . .In reference to Bill's comment on bounce flash, I started thinking about the Inverse Square Law and how distance affects the intensity of the coverage. So would you buy a flash with the largest GN or use multiple flash?

+

A flash with the largest GN. Multiple flash has issues. . . Multiple flash is great for surrounding the subject with light, for a single flash power blast a flash with a high guide number wins out.

+

. . . I was thinking of a scenario where the above would be relevant and shooting a group portrait in a gymnasium would be a good example where you would want to maximum the intensity of bounce flash . . . about 30ft high with a group of about thirty to fifty people about five deep. I'd want to light everyone equally.

Hi John,

For that shooting scenario, 30x Group Portraiture on a Gymnasium, I would usually ere on the outline as given by Paul (bambleweeney).

Notwithstanding the technical issues that Paul has outlined, the Subjects will require herding and positioning.

An On-Camera DIRECT Flash as Fill or an OFF Camera (Hand Held) Direct Flash as Fill is very quick and precise.

Note that one can overcome to some extent the Inverse Square Law issue by one or all of these techniques:

> getting higher
> shooting wider
> tight grouping of Subjects
> selective Dodging and Burning in Post Production

Using a wide lens; getting in close; getting an high camera vantage point; and using Direct Flash as Fill - is my first choice for an in situ Group Portrait of approximately 30 people -


Image © AJ Group Pty Ltd (Aust) 1996~2014

Also, In Situ Group Portraiture, tends today to be more relaxed, intimate and spontaneous than the typical tiered, hands on knees school photos of old: that's another (perhaps the main reason) why I like to be quick nimble and mobile when shooting this type of Portrait and one can do all that if one is carrying the Flash


*

If you have Assistants and/or a group of compliant Subjects, then a more front on and formal grouping in four or five tiered rows, can be lit by using TWO Speedlites in a WHITE Shoot-through, positioned high and at about 15°~20° Off Lens Axis.
The main (lighting) technical details that I employ in this arrangement are:
> to have the lights HIGH (about 4 metres off ground level)
> to have the Subjects tiered
> to have the largest (tallest) Subjects in the middle of each row and to drop down to the ends
> to have the camera about 500mm (18 inches) higher than the tallest person standing at the back

These technical steps are to AVOID shadows on the faces of any one Subject’s neighbour, whilst still achieving some MODELLING so to create a sense of DEPTH in then Portrait (yes – shadow caution is required even using shoot through)



*

I would not use bounce off the ceiling for a shooting scenario being Group Portraiture in a Gymnasium, just to mention a few more potential problems:
> you’ll lose all control of modelling;
> you’ll lose all control of shadows;
> the light will be very flat;
> arguably you will not have enough power to overshoot the ambient EV, to arrest Subject Motion.

WW

[William W]

One consideration when using Flash as Fill are the (large) mirror reflections (catch-lights) from SKIN and these reflections may be exasserbated by:
> dark skinned Subject
> humid conditions
> close Camera proximity (i.e. close Flash proximity)
> Direct Flash (i.e. no Modifier)

Usually it is impossible to use Make Up for Portraiture Genres: in situ, ad hoc, Street . . . etc , so , IF these reflections are considered bothersome then other steps need to be taken to reduce them.
One method is to use only post production, but I find that a limited option.

I refer to Manfred’s two Portraits: I could not read the EXIF, but my guess is that the second shot (the H&S Portrait) was pulled at a closer camera viewpoint than the ¾ Portrait Shot of the two women?
I reckon this (all else being sort of equal) by the intensity and area of the PATCH Skin Reflections in both Images.

One ‘at the time of the shot’ method is to always shoot the tighter shot with a slightly longer lens than otherwise - that pulls the Flash distance back; secondly if you need to get closer use less flash and more diffusion as you move you camera (and Flash) viewpoint.

Rough indicative facsimile comparison to explain what I mean is below – the original is on the left.
Also FYI on my C.M. there was a slight blue flash tinge in the original, which I removed – this blue tinge is more noticeable with dark black and very dark black skin)



WW


***


Manfred,

The three-quarter of the two women Portrait is very good, Bravo.

Bill

[AB26]

Lukas,

My personal advice to you would be to get yourself a single flash to start with. For the D800E I would suggest an SB910.

With a single flash you can do a lot more than most people would have you believe. That plastic thingy that others would tell you to dump, do not throw it away. Learn to use that simple plastic dome and you will see it has benefits.

I am still learning and I only use a single on camera SB80DX. No iTTL with a Nikon D200.

Four factors that influence flash exposure:
1. Flash output
2. Distance to subject
3. Aperture
4. ISO setting

There is no easy way of learning how to use flash but to use it and gain experience with it. Your gut feel will be the best tool you will develop when using it more and more.

Join Neil Van Niekerk’s blog and learn from him.
Once you start using flash you wonder why you have been so reluctant in doing it. For me it was fear of failing.

The flash with the highest GN is a Sigma Flash. The EF 610DG ST Super has a GN of 61m (200’) at ISO 100 set to 105mm. It has a head rotating 360 degrees and can be bounced in any direction.

The Phottix Mitros has a GN of 58m (ISO 100 / 105mm). At around $ 300 it is a bargain speedlight. Also with a head turning 360 degrees.

The Sigma and Phottix are options to be considered, though the SB910 does not have the same GN it will be the better choice.

[Shadowman]

+

+


Hi John,

For that shooting scenario, 30x Group Portraiture on a Gymnasium, I would usually ere on the outline as given by Paul (bambleweeney).

Notwithstanding the technical issues that Paul has outlined, the Subjects will require herding and positioning.

An On-Camera DIRECT Flash as Fill or an OFF Camera (Hand Held) Direct Flash as Fill is very quick and precise.

Note that one can overcome to some extent the Inverse Square Law issue by one or all of these techniques:

> getting higher
> shooting wider
> tight grouping of Subjects
> selective Dodging and Burning in Post Production

Using a wide lens; getting in close; getting an high camera vantage point; and using Direct Flash as Fill - is my first choice for an in situ Group Portrait of approximately 30 people -


Image © AJ Group Pty Ltd (Aust) 1996~2014

Also, In Situ Group Portraiture, tends today to be more relaxed, intimate and spontaneous than the typical tiered, hands on knees school photos of old: that's another (perhaps the main reason) why I like to be quick nimble and mobile when shooting this type of Portrait and one can do all that if one is carrying the Flash


*

If you have Assistants and/or a group of compliant Subjects, then a more front on and formal grouping in four or five tiered rows, can be lit by using TWO Speedlites in a WHITE Shoot-through, positioned high and at about 15°~20° Off Lens Axis.
The main (lighting) technical details that I employ in this arrangement are:
> to have the lights HIGH (about 4 metres off ground level)
> to have the Subjects tiered
> to have the largest (tallest) Subjects in the middle of each row and to drop down to the ends
> to have the camera about 500mm (18 inches) higher than the tallest person standing at the back

These technical steps are to AVOID shadows on the faces of any one Subject’s neighbour, whilst still achieving some MODELLING so to create a sense of DEPTH in then Portrait (yes – shadow caution is required even using shoot through)



*

I would not use bounce off the ceiling for a shooting scenario being Group Portraiture in a Gymnasium, just to mention a few more potential problems:
> you’ll lose all control of modelling;
> you’ll lose all control of shadows;
> the light will be very flat;
> arguably you will not have enough power to overshoot the ambient EV, to arrest Subject Motion.

WW

Bill,

Thanks for the detailed suggestions, that pool shoot looks like a challenge. Good control of the shadows and everyone equally lit.

[Manfred M]

One consideration when using Flash as Fill are the (large) mirror reflections (catch-lights) from SKIN and these reflections may be exasserbated by:
> dark skinned Subject
> humid conditions
> close Camera proximity (i.e. close Flash proximity)
> Direct Flash (i.e. no Modifier)

Usually it is impossible to use Make Up for Portraiture Genres: in situ, ad hoc, Street . . . etc , so , IF these reflections are considered bothersome then other steps need to be taken to reduce them.
One method is to use only post production, but I find that a limited option.

I refer to Manfred’s two Portraits: I could not read the EXIF, but my guess is that the second shot (the H&S Portrait) was pulled at a closer camera viewpoint than the ¾ Portrait Shot of the two women?
I reckon this (all else being sort of equal) by the intensity and area of the PATCH Skin Reflections in both Images.

One ‘at the time of the shot’ method is to always shoot the tighter shot with a slightly longer lens than otherwise - that pulls the Flash distance back; secondly if you need to get closer use less flash and more diffusion as you move you camera (and Flash) viewpoint.

Rough indicative facsimile comparison to explain what I mean is below – the original is on the left.
Also FYI on my C.M. there was a slight blue flash tinge in the original, which I removed – this blue tinge is more noticeable with dark black and very dark black skin)


WW


***

Manfred,

The three-quarter of the two women Portrait is very good, Bravo.

Bill

Bill - Both shots were taken with the gear shown in this shot taken by my wife; (although I did not use the tripod). Nikon D800 with f/2.8 70-200mm lens and a SB900 Speedlight using a large Rogue Flashbender light modifer (suggested by a couple of members of this forum). I was shooting wide open on both shots at ISO 100 at 1/125th. The headshot was taken at 200mm and the 3/4 shot at 70mm. Subjects were positioned in open shade.





The shots were taken in a Karo village at around 10:00AM. Fairly crazy shooting as effectively we (and others) would show up in the village, tour around a bit and pay a few of the villagers to pose for a few shots (this is one way they earned some cash). Needless to say shooting conditions were far from ideal, with villagers and tourists crossing in front of subjects and places where we were shooting.

I was trying to underexpose ambient light by around 1 to 2 stops and properly expose the subject and hoped to turn my small light source into a slightly larger one with the Flashbender. The hotspot in the headshot is effectively produced by the rectangular light modifier.

Ideally, the shots would have been done in the late afternoon using studio lighting (powered by a battery pack) with a medium to large softbox. That simply was not in the cards. Maybe next time?

[lukaswerth]

Manfred,

I meant to say earlier that I thoroughly enjoyed your portraits as well was the link to Joey L you provided in your first post. Very interesting, intriguing pictures.

With regard to the speedlights, I am still thinking, and, Andre, I am considering buying ony one as a first, after all there is also Nikon's inbuilt flash - J have never seriously used it, but I suppose it empties the battery pretty soon and shoots only just in front...well, I suppose that can at least be softened somewhat...
Phottix Mitros not available in Germany. I am currently thinking of one or two Metz 52 af-1, power similar to the Nikon SB 910, cheaper, get good reviews... I'll see.

Lukas

[William W]

Thanks Manfred.