Eating my words, asking about speedlights

[lukaswerth]

Well, after having pronounced in an earlier thread that I never use a flash, I find myself now eating my words and asking a question about lighting equipment, for I want to try a few things:
I want to get two flashlights which can both be used remote controlled from my Nikon camera (d800e), simultaneously if necessary, that is, if I understand correctly, one as a master, one as a slave. Manual control is necessary, automatic control would be nice. I want to order them from here in Germany from where I can pick them up when I go there in December. Choice of brands which I can get hold of in Germany, as far as I found out up to now, are: Nikon's native flashes, Nissin, Metz, Yongnuo. I tend to omit the latter, because I have read concerns about quality. Nissin seems also quite inexpensive; how are they? What about Nikon, and which combination would you advice - which doesn't cost an arm and a leg! Can a Nikon flash be combined with another brand? Or, would two SB 700s do the trick? Is an SB 500 also enough? Or should I rather go for Metz, or a Nikon and a Metz? Do I need a remote control on the camera or is this not necessary?
I could dearly do with some hints about maximum distances at ISO 100 and more; I really don't want to make an ordering mistake and get stranded with an equipment which doesn't do what I want.

Can you advise me about a good combination?

Lukas

[xpatUSA]

Well, after having pronounced in an earlier thread that I never use a flash, I find myself now eating my words and asking a question about lighting equipment, for I want to try a few things:
I want to get two flashlights which can both be used remote controlled from my Nikon camera (d800e), simultaneously if necessary, that is, if I understand correctly, one as a master, one as a slave. Manual control is necessary, automatic control would be nice. I want to order them from here in Germany from where I can pick them up when I go there in December. Choice of brands which I can get hold of in Germany, as far as I found out up to now, are: Nikon's native flashes, Nissin, Metz, Yongnuo. I tend to omit the latter, because I have read concerns about quality. Nissin seems also quite inexpensive; how are they? What about Nikon, and which combination would you advice - which doesn't cost an arm and a leg! Can a Nikon flash be combined with another brand? Or, would two SB 700s do the trick? Is an SB 500 also enough? Or should I rather go for Metz, or a Nikon and a Metz? Do I need a remote control on the camera or is this not necessary?
I could dearly do with some hints about maximum distances at ISO 100 and more; I really don't want to make an ordering mistake and get stranded with an equipment which doesn't do what I want.

Can you advise me about a good combination?

Lukas

As to "maximum distances at ISO 100" a bit of Googling on the subject will pay dividends, IMHO.

I have recently started using flash as I record construction work here in the Shack. As a Sigma user, I can't help with choice of Nikon stuff though.

I was initially baffled by the "guide number" mystique. Took me a while to discover that GN50 actually meant a seriously narrow beam of flash light at 50 meters distant and ISO 100. In other words, the biggest flash performance number is published for the least useful application of the unit

So for recent kitchen work, a.k.a an excuse to play the flashmeister, I ended up using two GN50 off-camera flashes triggered by the puny GN11 on-camera flash. One master, two manually set slaves. The Sigmas can also be triggered wirelessly from my Sigma cameras.

I would definitely agree with your desire for manual control and would further recommend getting some table-top stands which also have a tripod thread in them. If you're anticipating wide-angle work, the SB700s might be preferable to the SB500s. That is because the wider the beam angle out of the flash, the less the light per unit area on the subject. Another shock-horror for me was having to use mostly Aperture to control exposure - not quite what I was used to as Mr Continuous Lighting fanatic.

Good Luck!

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Lukas,

I don't practice flash (these days) either (did when I shot film, donkey's years ago, when it was all manual of course).

My observations/thoughts are;
a) keep it simple and have two of the same brand - don't mix, that way insanity/frustration may lie
b) if you're trying to shoot at such low ISO, you'll need power (assuming your subjects aren't close by), so the SB700 (if not the SB910), over the SB500, but they're not cheap

HTH (at least until an expert sees this thread), Dave

[bambleweeney]

Hi Lukas,
not an easy question at all. How much do you want to spend ? What do you want to photograph and how many flashes will it take ?
I'm a Nikon user and currently possess three flashes. An SB600, an old SB25 and a Yongnuo (I've got a few pieces of Yongnuo kit and never had any reliability issues)
The SB600 is TTL but I rarely use it apart from quick 'snaps'. My flash of choice is the Yongnuo off camera and controlled by wireless (Yongnuo 602 thingies), if I need to add a flash then it's usually the SB25 off camera with another Yongnuo receiver or a studio flash also triggered by a Yongnuo receiver. All in manual mode, I prefer this setup as :-
1. its very inexpensive
2. it's very controllable with a flash meter
3. ... it's inexpensive.
I know lots of people like to have several TTL flashes controlled from the camera and I can certainly see the advantages but to get a useful amount of power is pretty pricey. I estimate that my three speedlights, the wireless transmitters/receivers and the light modifiers probably cost less than one Nikon TTL flash. A quick and recent check on Amazon reveals a Yongnuo TTL unit with good reviews at a sensible price and I confess to being tempted, the idea of not having to do a tour of flash units to individually adjust power or distance is kind of appealing, mind you light usually needs adjusting and something usually needs moving anyhow. I usually take time and set up light how I want it and really don't mind tweaking things too much, if you're shooting and you don't have that much time then TTL might be more suitable.
As a rule I'd say get the most powerful flash that you can (one reason why I don't often get the SB600 out of the bag, the Yongnuo on the other hand will give you sunburn in comparison ) particularly if you are planning on using flash outdoors in daylight.
Re. using models of the same brand. Definately not a bad idea, I manage with the aid of bad language My two Nikon flashes are totally different though, one from the last pre-digital century (practically a gift on eBay) and the SB600; throw the Yongnuo into the equation and life gets interesting.

[xpatUSA]

Re. Using models of the same brand, I'd even go further and suggest the same models within a brand. I have two Sigma EF-500 units - but one is a 'DG Super' model and the other is a 'DG ST' model. The ST is extremely limited, no LCD, no this, no that, but mainly it only has two manual power options: full or 1/16!! Any other settings have to be done via TTL with it on the camera and then removed to a remote location while still ON. The DG, on the other hand, has an LCD and plenty of modes - including a range of manual power settings.

[russellsnr]

Hi, maybe help you maybe not but you don't need to have make to make flashes/speedlights with these.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...4UGMZtAowRC-67

[Manfred M]

Lukas - I have a D800 and use both a SB600 and SB900. I stick with Nikon just to minimize any compatibility issues, not so much now, but in the future when I upgrade my camera body. There is not guarantee that the third party manufacturers will upgrade in-flash firmware to ensure future compatibility. My understanding is that Nikon does maintain a good level of backwards compatibility in its designs.

As for remote control; the Commander mode and the pop-up flash (master) on your D800e will control up to three individual external flash zones (slaves) right from the camera. You can set the pop-up so that it has no impact on the image what so ever and you can change the flash settings right from your camera. This setup works for me 99% of the time and the only time I have issues is when one of the flashes can't pick up the light from the master. In that situation I go to radio triggers (I use PocketWizards).

[Shadowman]

A quick search of speedlights for Nikon:
SB-R200 33ft.
SB400 69ft.
SB600 98ft.
SB700 92ft.
SB800 125ft.
SB900 111ft.
SB910 111ft.

[Mike Buckley]

One word of caution: I have a Nikon SB800 and a Nikon SB600. It drives me nuts that the interfaces are completely different. If you don't have the issues that I do remembering how to configure two different speed lights, that won't be the problem for you that it is for me.

[xpatUSA]

A quick search of speedlights for Nikon:
SB-R200 33ft.
SB400 69ft.
SB600 98ft.
SB700 92ft.
SB800 125ft.
SB900 111ft.
SB910 111ft.

John, are these all for the same equivalent focal length?

[Andrew1]

http://strobist.blogspot.ca/2006/03/...flash-and.html

[William W]

. . . I could dearly do with some hints about maximum distances at ISO 100 and more; I really don't want to make an ordering mistake and get stranded with an equipment which doesn't do what I want.

A Flash's MAXIMUM WORKING DISTANCE is dependent upon TWO and sometimes THREE elements:

1. The ISO used
2. The APERTURE used
3. The FL of the lens (if the Flash has an internal Lens & Zoom system to aim the Flash: mostly all ‘dedicated’ Hot Shoe Flash Units do.)

So, usually it is not wise to think about the Flash’s Maximum Working Distance and only consider the ISO without taking into account the APERTURE(s) that you will have available to use. Obviously, but to a lesser degree, the FL of the lens being used must also be considered.

The basis for working out the MAXIMUM WORKING DISTANCE is the GUIDE NUMBER of the Flash and the GN is usually expressed in: ‘Feet @ ISO100’ (sometimes Metres @ ISO100, but usually feet because feet makes for a bigger number).

Note that for most modern Hot-shoe dedicated “speedlites” (those with a lens and zoom mechanism as mentioned above) the GN changes depending upon the FL of the lens being used lens. Hence the question asked in post #10.

The formula is: APERTURE x MAXIMUM WORKING DISTANCE = GUIDE NUMBER.

Note that the GN is relevant only for DIRECT FLASH – and is NOT applicable to either BOUNCED nor DIFFUSED Flash.

WW

[Loose Canon]

If you are considering getting a couple of Nikon speedlights, and shoot a Nikon camera, then that’s where I would end it. Get the Nikons, enjoy them and don’t look back!

Everyone has given almost all of the reasons I would mention for this choice. The ability to control everything from the camera is golden. At first you may not mind circling the scene screwing with lights but you will. It gets old pretty fast.

The native brand will out perform and be more enjoyable and consistent to use. You won’t have to ship them out to China or somewhere if something goes wrong. I definitely want, along with manual control, TTL capability, zoom (manual & auto) and high speed sync capabilities for more versatility. I would think that these alone would require native lights.

But here would be the deciding factor for me and why I am not a huge fan of mixing lights. You cannot get as close to color matching, flash duration, and overall control with a mixed set. And as mentioned, even mixed models within the same brand. This may or may not have any bearing on what you intend to shoot at this point. But this flash thing can be addictive once you see its unlimited potential and the better you equip yourself now the fewer issues you will have as you expand your use of them.

My philosophy is spend a couple of extra bucks and protect yourself from later “hitting the wall” with your equipment purchases as best you can looking toward the future.

I don’t shoot Nikon but I know that you may hit some limitations with IR controlling, which is what I presume you are looking at. Bright daylight, and line-of-sight issues come immediately to mind. Stuff a light into a modifier that you have to point in the wrong direction and you will have problems. Radio signal is the way to go and there are some good options out there. Manfred mentioned Pocket Wizards and you can’t go wrong with these, at least paired with Nikon. You may have compatibility issues with triggers and other manufacturer’s lights, especially in a mix. I use Phottix triggers and they offer everything that has been mentioned and more for my 3x Canon 580EXII’s (second curtain firing, stroboscopic, etc.). Not one single misfire (At least with batteries containing a sufficient charge, and that is another consideration. Eneloops are my choice.) that I can remember so far and I have used the soup out of them. Excellent pricing on them as well for what they do.

Another shock-horror for me was having to use mostly Aperture to control exposure - not quite what I was used to as Mr Continuous Lighting fanatic.

And this is not necessarily true either. I set my preferred aperture and adjust power output, ISO, or both more times than not. Certainly in a studio environment.

[lukaswerth]

Thanks a lot to everyone, reading through the thread was extremely helpful; even where I don't have an answer yet, like the guide number applicability. I guess the ambivalence is here in the nature of things.

I also see what information was missing in my first post. I didn't mention a price because of Euro-Dollar-Pound-VAT-issues; I want to spend-naturally-as little as possibe and as much as necessary. Getting serious, I set myself a possible upper limit of 700-750 € if I can get the VAT back - I am entitled to this because of living abroad, but the seller as to agree which limits the shops from where to buy. Further, the amount mentioned amount should include two stands, an umbrella, a small lightbox.

Regarding the work I am planning (that should give some idea about the equipment needed): you might call it location portraiture. That is, I want to put some further effort into, even if this sounds pompous, interpreting the identity of people - to highlight them, if you like, introduce deliberate lighting in relation to the background, perhaps creating some sort of hyper-reality. I must admit I have been inspired somewhat by pictures of Philip-Lorca diCorcia, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip-Lorca_diCorcia
http://www.americansuburbx.com/wp-co...ads-Custom.jpg
Looking at my own imagery, like
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lukaswerth/8853220032/
or
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lukaswerth/8852642397/
or
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lukaswerth/8727550275/
makes me think of enhancing what I encounter by using deliberate lighting. I know this is going to be tedious, as I will have to get setups of gear into place at shrine festivals and such-like, but then again I have worked with large format cameras at such places, and I had rather one really good frame than 100 merely nice or interesting ones. I want to try, anyway, need to put some serious work into it, as I am working towards a book publication. A movie which also sparked my imagination, I should add, is "the story of a Geisha" - phantastic lighting, if you ask me.

Do you think two Nikon SB700s would serve me? I haven't ruled out cheaper options, like Yolnuo's, but I am a bit concerned about getting stuck with broken equipment here in Pakistan and not being able to get it repaired (there is Nikon Pakistan!).

Also, where the hell do I get these pocket wizards from? Getting them from the USA is very costly considering UPS prices and customs added (I know, I am ordering something I can't get from anywhere else, ad the price comes to more tha double the shop price). So can anyone recommend an outlet in the UK or so which ships stocks this and ships to Germany?

I might ask Calumet Germany, but their website seems down, anyway not accessible to me.
I hope that wasn't too long and too mixed a post,

Lukas

[JR1]

Tooooo long a thread to read all right now but interesting so I will print it off for later

MY own preference is

I have three SB910s

Why, well first of all they can be used for "proper stroboscopic photography", not what the USA call strobes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_dZYD1NOuI

No other Nikon can

METZ I have used for year and are superb.

When it comes to master/slave etc the SB910 has it in shedloads and so simple

When I am shooting multiple setups, D4s, D810 etc I use the best units I have found and yes I have tried many.

YES any make of flash can be used as a slave just as you would not be expected to buy a JVC TV just because you had a JVC recorder, just use in manual mode.

I know what I am suggesting is not cheap but remember, PRE OWNED



Shope here such as London Camera Exchange ship pre owned abroad

http://www.lcegroup.co.uk/Used/Nikon...te_109157.html

http://www.lcegroup.co.uk/Used/Misce...wo_110878.html

[Shadowman]

John, are these all for the same equivalent focal length?

Hi Ted,

Yes, 35mm at ISO 100.

[Shadowman]

In reference to post #10 and #12 (specifically comment on camera's built-in speedlight) all were for ISO 100, however the built-in speed light was a guide for 18mm lens at 39ft; while all other flashes were guides for 35mm lens. The built-in speedlight was not part of the original list.

In reference to Bill's comment on bounce flash, I started thinking about the Inverse Square Law and how distance affects the intensity of the coverage. So would you buy a flash with the largest GN or use multiple flash?

[bambleweeney]

In reference to Bill's comment on bounce flash, I started thinking about the Inverse Square Law and how distance affects the intensity of the coverage. So would you buy a flash with the largest GN or use multiple flash?

A flash with the largest GN. Multiple flash has issues. Trying to increase power with multiple flash you'll run into problems mounting them, problems with light modifiers, a headache adjusting the flash settings and it's an exponential gain.
1 extra flash will give you double the power (ish), to double the power again you'll need 3 extra flash units. When you start talking about that much power you're looking at portable studio flash and battery packs. The word portable should be in inverted commas here as at this point you will probably need an assistant.
I have a piece of tape stuck on the top of my manual flash (the Yongnuo) giving me correct exposure settings at f8 at 10 feet at half flash power. Simple to calibrate in a darkened room with a flashmeter. It's (relatively) simple arithmetic to judge flash to subject distance (good old inverese square law) adjust for the aperture and the amount of light I want on the subject to get me in the ball park if I'm shooting outside and can't stick a flashmeter on the subject. Ok, first thing in the morning the arithmetic isn't THAT simple (the inverse arithmetic law - the ease of calculating is inversely proportional to the amount of time you've been out of bed).
Multiple flash is great for surrounding the subject with light, for a single flash power blast a flash with a high guide number wins out.

[Manfred M]

Lukas - I started to try a similar approach about a year ago, on a trip to Ethiopia. I was influenced by the work of Joey L (Joey Lawrence). http://www.joeyl.com/personal/

The "trick" is to underexpose the background by a stop or two and expose the subject correctly. This means you have to have enough power in the flash to overpower the ambient light, not always something that works with small flash unless the light is right to begin with. I was using a SB900 and a large size Rogue Flashbender as my light modifier. I found shooting in heavy shade or close to sunset seemed to work fairly well. I need to get the time (and location) to play with this technique again

Anyways, this was sort of where I was heading with my images:








I also had some ND (1-3 stop Lee) filters along to preserve the shallow DoF, but haven't quite perfected the technique yet.

[Shadowman]

A flash with the largest GN. Multiple flash has issues. Trying to increase power with multiple flash you'll run into problems mounting them, problems with light modifiers, a headache adjusting the flash settings and it's an exponential gain.
1 extra flash will give you double the power (ish), to double the power again you'll need 3 extra flash units. When you start talking about that much power you're looking at portable studio flash and battery packs. The word portable should be in inverted commas here as at this point you will probably need an assistant.
I have a piece of tape stuck on the top of my manual flash (the Yongnuo) giving me correct exposure settings at f8 at 10 feet at half flash power. Simple to calibrate in a darkened room with a flashmeter. It's (relatively) simple arithmetic to judge flash to subject distance (good old inverese square law) adjust for the aperture and the amount of light I want on the subject to get me in the ball park if I'm shooting outside and can't stick a flashmeter on the subject. Ok, first thing in the morning the arithmetic isn't THAT simple (the inverse arithmetic law - the ease of calculating is inversely proportional to the amount of time you've been out of bed).
Multiple flash is great for surrounding the subject with light, for a single flash power blast a flash with a high guide number wins out.

Paul,

Thanks for the response. I was thinking of a scenario where the above would be relevant and shooting a group portrait in a gymnasium would be a good example where you would want to maximum the intensity of bounce flash.