Diamond Head and Night

[ShaneS]

I took this one last night and wanted to get your thoughts...



Any and all comments welcome but I wonder if this foreground works? The right side is bugging me a bit and I wonder if I should try to lighten or darken the rocks more. I don't mind that they are dark but I think that the lighter bits are a bit distracting.

PS - For those of you who have been following my landscape exploits you will know that good clouds and color seem to elude me...I'm beginning to take it personally as the aforementioned conditions were great the two days prior to last night!

[Shadowman]

Hi Shane,

At this distance I'd remove the clouds unless you can bring out some brightness, at least the formation middle of cityscape. I think the foreground needs a bit of brightness or a complete crop.

[Stagecoach]

Hi Shane

We can't always get the skies we want

Ok, for me I feel the water is overpowering in the image, perhaps a lower perspective would have reduced it somewhat.

If mine I would brighten the entire foreground to add more interest.

At least you can get out and take photographs all we have is wind and rain

Grahame

[dje]

Shane don't take it personally, it happens to all of us. I like the shot and would probably just lighten up the entire foreground as Grahame suggests, but not too much.

Dave

[bnnrcn]

Hi Shane I like the shot , I don't think you need very dramatic clouds for such a scene , because IMO a lot of buildings and clouds would make the scene crowded. I have two suggestions for the image :

1- I would live the composition as it is and I would brigthen the FG rocks slightly and partially to see if it improves the image

2- As Grahame mentioned above, there is a bit too much water in the scene and the buildings look really small. I would crop the whole FG to lessen the sea and to put the emphasis more on the buildings.

I like the colors very much .

[John 2]

You have really split opinion with this one Shane. For me, the FG lighter bits are distracting, there is nothing wrong with the lighting or the colour (spot on time in the evening I suspect), I like the clouds and so I would go for a complete panorama from about half way up the water. - and you thought we would help you make a decision.

[IzzieK]

Forget about the desired clouds, I was just thinking more about your question/choices here --- if you lighten the foreground, will it compete with the brightness of the buildings? Which would rather have more attention -- the building or the foreground? Darken the foreground and it will compete with the expanse of the water; remove the foreground and reduce the water a bit will make it just like any other flat golden hour shot of buildings ahead...if this is mine, I'll experiment with in-betweens...or leave it the way it is. What I find interesting as I moved the picture in lytebox is that a lesser foreground works best for me. What about yours?

[FrankMi]

Hi Shane, this type of composition is VERY difficult to do well. Let's consider the attention getters that a viewer’s eye are drawn to:
• Human elements (like a human body) before non-human elements - none
• Faces before other human elements, and on the face, the eyes first - none
• Large, dominant elements before smaller elements - the sea and sky
• Bright objects over dark objects - the buildings, particularly on the left
• Areas of high contrast over areas of low contrast - the distant shoreline
• Sharp elements before out-of-focus elements - the foreground
• Recognizable elements before unrecognizable elements - buildings on the left, Diamond Head on the right
• Oblique objects (in perspective) or diagonal lines before flat strait lines - the close shoreline
• Warm colors over cool colors - none
• Saturated (vibrant) colors over bland (unsaturated) colors - very little
• Elements of emotional significance over those with none - viewer dependent
• Isolated elements before cluttered elements - Diamond Head

There are many completing elements in this image. Although something bright (buildings) gets more attention than something dark (sea), something large (sea and sky) usually trumps something small (buildings).

The photographer's goal in a situation like this is to decide how you want to balance the forces at work to lead the eye through the image. In order to do that, you have to decide what are the most important elements in the scene and how do you use the options noted above to grab the viewer's attention and lead their eye through the exploration of the composition.

Given the elements in this image, I think I would have concentrated on just the Diamond Head point in a panoramic view. Better yet, look for a time during the golden hour where the lighting favors the sea and sky such as during a dramatic sunrise/sunset. Even then, I would be hesitant to shoot a long thin horizontal line as my only center of interest. Hope this helps!

[chauncey]

Heed the advice of the others when you reshoot and work the scene more...move right and left, in and
out, up and down, until you're satisfied with the composition. Then wait for the lighting to grab you.

[ShaneS]

Thank you everyone! As always, I appreciate reading your insightful comments.

I fiddled with the foreground and the crop a bit but given that the lighting wasn't ideal in the first place I think that this one goes into the almost works file I am fortunate that I can revisit this vantage point at my leisure so I will definitely be keep your comments in mind and have a chat with the cloud and color gods to see if they will cooperate when I go out again.

Here is another shot taken a bit earlier where Diamond Head is definitely the subject. Again, I don't think that this one is an award winner but I will add it if anyone wants to continue the discussion.



Sorry about your weather Grahame...I hope you get out again soon

Frank, that is a great checklist and I really appreciate the time that you took to analyze this photo using this approach. Very interesting indeed so thank you!

[bnnrcn]

Hi Shane IMO there is a bit too much water in the second shot . I would crop it from the bottom to have the water on 1/3 of the image .

[FrankMi]

Hi Shane, in my view, your latest version has addressed the majority of the 'balance' issues that were in the original. I think that Binnur has a legitimate concern for the foreground and as this is still very much a horizontal panorama, you could go with a wider aspect ratio and still be appropriate for the content.

The sky was also mentioned as something that could have it's interest lifted a bit as well. It is sometimes difficult to accurately describe what might work so here is an edit in a direction that might help give you an idea of some of the possibilities for this kind of scene.



The edit was created by adding some fill light in Adobe Camera RAW to bring out some of the detail, then duplicating the image in CS5 and applying Multiply to the sky and a bit less to the sea. I then warmed the sky to bring in more of a sunset glow to match the time of day and then cropped and applied a slight vignette to put more of the attention on the city light and Diamond Head. If you don't want this image in your thread I will remove it. Hope this helps!

[AndrewMcD]

Frank, that is a great checklist and I really appreciate the time that you took to analyze this photo using this approach. Very interesting indeed so thank you!

I'm in lurking and learning mode lately and have to agree with Shane's comment regarding Frank's check list. A structured analysis of an image based on a list like that REALLY helps me begin to understand the interplay of elements in an image.

[NorthernFocus]

I definately vote for the pano composition and of all the options Frank's version is most appealing IMO. A lovely scene that I'd definately revisit during special lighting conditions.

[ShaneS]

Thank you very much for you additional thoughts, particularly Frank for taking the time to show me what he meant with a new edit.

I'm actually quite torn about the edit to be completely honest. It is definitely a good edit and the result is much more dramatic which is giving me pause for thought in that it is an artistic representation of the scene that is very different from the reality of what I saw when I was there.

I'm not against this on principle and we all do it to some degree with each and every photo that we edit. I'm not sure if my 'issue' has to do with my lack of a vision to 'see' this edit or if I am uncomfortable with taking the image so far away from reality in the editing process. I would welcome further discussion in that regard and I suspect that I will continue to ponder this for some time to come...

[FrankMi]

Thank you very much for you additional thoughts, particularly Frank for taking the time to show me what he meant with a new edit.

I'm actually quite torn about the edit to be completely honest. It is definitely a good edit and the result is much more dramatic which is giving me pause for thought in that it is an artistic representation of the scene that is very different from the reality of what I saw when I was there.

I'm not against this on principle and we all do it to some degree with each and every photo that we edit. I'm not sure if my 'issue' has to do with my lack of a vision to 'see' this edit or if I am uncomfortable with taking the image so far away from reality in the editing process. I would welcome further discussion in that regard and I suspect that I will continue to ponder this for some time to come...

Hi Shane, your points are quite valid, and the very reason I offered the edit as only a possibility for consideration. You were there and I was not. It was your vision of reality. In fact, even when I am taking the picture, I sometimes have a difficult time during post processing to get the image as I 'thought' I remember it looked, particularly after staring at the image on my monitor for a while.

I have historically tried to get the image as close to what I think I remember as I can.

Lately I have been wrestling between making an image artistically pleasing to view while trying to keep it as accurate as possible. There are huge differences between what the eye actually sees at any split second in time, brain presents to us after stitching together multiple snapshots taken by the eye, and the shortcomings of a static photographic image with a single point of focus, a single exposure, and a single shutter speed. The brain may mask out the obvious issues in the scene but fixed image does not.

Do we post the image SOOC knowing that the exposure, contrast, saturation, hue, sharpness, DoF, chromatic aberration, geometric distortion, white balance, atmospheric haze, and all those things we would like to clone out are wrong and taking the enjoyment out of the scene we saw? Or do we correct some, most, or all of the things that we see are wrong with the image? Frequently in the SOOC image, the scene simply did not look that way at the time! The more things we try to change or 'correct', the further from reality the image can become but (hopefully) the more compelling the image is to view.

It is a slippery slope so where do we stop? I think that is something that we all have to decide for ourselves. It is a personal decision that should not be forced on anyone else that may see their values differently then us.

I know that for me, as the years go by, I am becoming more interested in producing the more artistic images that my brain sees. I find myself preferring those renderings that the stir an emotion in the viewer to shackling my images to the limitations of the camera.

Shane, I trust that you will find a comfortable middle ground in your 'strict reality verses artistic interpretation' decision making but do not be surprised if you find your views changing over time. Hope this helps!

[ShaneS]

Thank you for understanding where I was coming from with that comment Frank! I do think that our positions tend to evolve and change over time and with experience. As long as we are growing, learning and having fun (most of the time) this is a very good thing IMHO.

I often think that my 'artistic' vision is sometimes limited by the level of my PP skills (maybe better stated as what seem like endless options in PP) which is why I hang around CiC where you and others are willing to share new skills or applications for existing skills with others who are not so far along the learning curve.

Thanks again