Wedding photography nightmare

[Sponge]

I've never had any intention of pursuing wedding photography and I've read enough warnings from others that make me even less interested but this story just sounds like a complete nightmare. That being said it was enjoyable to read this article and see how things unfolded.

http://petapixel.com/2014/12/09/gary...t-nelson-tang/

[Shadowman]

Interesting article. Thanks for the link.

[NorthernFocus]

While I'm sure the potential problems of unhappy clients is universal, I've assumed the issue of this sort of lawsuit is unique to the USA. Is that not correct?

[Sponge]

While I'm sure the potential problems of unhappy clients is universal, I've assumed the issue of this sort of lawsuit is unique to the USA. Is that not correct?

That's what I was thinking as well Dan. I think this demonstrates what is wrong with the court system in the US. I'd like to believe that not many lawyers would risk their license like this but it still shows how people try to take advantage of the system.

[Shadowman]

That's what I was thinking as well Dan. I think this demonstrates what is wrong with the court system in the US. I'd like to believe that not many lawyers would risk their license like this but it still shows how people try to take advantage of the system.

It has very little to do with the U.S. court system as it was an "opportunity" for both parties to present a contractual disagreement before a deciding authority. It is everyone's right, regardless of their country of origin to dispute a business/contractual obligation if they are not satisfied with the results. How would a dispute be handled in other countries, perhaps a mediator? This case could have just as easily been settled by a mediator between the two parties, however the defendant perhaps because he was rattled decided to bring in a third party and the entire event become unmanageable.

[NorthernFocus]

It has very little to do with the U.S. court system as it was an "opportunity" for both parties to present a contractual disagreement before a deciding authority...

Sounds like a decidedly legal perspective.

The very fact that one of the parties was a lawyer and threatened legal action above and beyond the cost of the service that was provided indicates what is wrong with our system. The entire concept of punitive damages paid to a plaintiff is flawed. No doubt civil lawyers love it as it provides the bulk of their earnings. But there is little rational justification for it. I don't disagree with the concept of punitive action as a deterent to abusive business practices, etc. But payment of anything in excess of real damages to a plaintiff is nonsense.

[IzzieK]

Interesting story. I was thinking that the lawyer did not want to pay for his services that was why he decided to sue.

[Shadowman]

Interesting story. I was thinking that the lawyer did not want to pay for his services that was why he decided to sue.

I'm surprised the photographer sent the client the RAW images.

[Sponge]

It has very little to do with the U.S. court system as it was an "opportunity" for both parties to present a contractual disagreement before a deciding authority. It is everyone's right, regardless of their country of origin to dispute a business/contractual obligation if they are not satisfied with the results. How would a dispute be handled in other countries, perhaps a mediator? This case could have just as easily been settled by a mediator between the two parties, however the defendant perhaps because he was rattled decided to bring in a third party and the entire event become unmanageable.

That the lawyer was threatening to take the photographer to court to the tune of $300k over the ordeal and the possibility that he could be awarded such a ridiculous amount is something very particular to the USA as far as I can tell.

[Shadowman]

That the lawyer was threatening to take the photographer to court to the tune of $300k over the ordeal and the possibility that he could be awarded such a ridiculous amount is something very particular to the USA as far as I can tell.

I'd have to see case studies before I'd condemn the U.S. court system to allowing such a reward for non-physical suffering. In this particular case the lawyer's inflated request was beyond even his wildest expectations.

[William W]

Nota bene: This commentary is NOT picking the twig out of my neighbour's eye whilst being blinded with a log in mine, but just interested in the topic:

. . . it has very little to do with the U.S. court system as it was an "opportunity" for both parties to present a contractual disagreement before a deciding authority. It is everyone's right, regardless of their country of origin to dispute a business/contractual obligation if they are not satisfied with the results. . . .

Perhaps how this was made to happen has little to do with the US Court System, but other ‘Legal Systems’ appear to be different.

Out of curiosity I ran the text of the extracts of the ‘correspondence’ that was cited in the link identified as being extracts from the Client (groom/lawyer) to the Photographer, by a friend of mine who is a Barrister: (Barrister is a ‘Lawyer’ who usually specializes in representing cases in court, especially criminal or large civil cases – as opposed to a Solicitor who is also a ‘Lawyer’.)

Where I am, in Strayla, it appears that all Lawyers are ‘Officers of the Court’ and as such are governed by a few Acts, one specifically concerns their Professional Conduct.

If those correspondences were sent and received here, it is likely that the sender, upon identifying himself as a Lawyer, would have broken at least three laws rendering himself liable to Prosecution before the Bar. Notwithstanding those incidents it appears that he could also have been charged under the Racial Vilification Act and also possibly charged with Intimidation under the Crimes Act, which has a maximum penalty of 5 years imprisonment: noted that we have had a few recent verdicts handed down against Public Officials and Officers of the Court and the Custodial Sentences were quite severe within the Sentencing Range available - one Custodial Sentence was in respect of a simple camera captured speeding fine where it was later exposed that an Officer of the Court falsely claimed who was driving his car to avoid the demerit points being debited on his own driver's licence.

Perhaps there are Criminal Statutes in the USA under which the Lawyer might still be charged and prosecuted: I don’t know. But, it appears, based only on the data in the article cited, that he got off with a comparative light slap on the hand from the Local Bar Association, having to “go through a rehabilitation program” whereas in other Legal Systems he might have been prosecuted with Criminal Offenses and faced a Custodial Sentence, as a result.

How would a dispute be handled in other countries, perhaps a mediator?

Here, most likely by the Civil and Administrative Tribunal, (Consumer and Commercial Division) and the claim is limited to defectiveness or problems with the goods and/or services. The limit of Claim is $40,000.

WW

[Shadowman]

Bill,

Apparently, there was some concern that the lawyer's demands bordered on extortion, I guess his explanation in writing was enough to resolve those concerns. In the U.S. a contract dispute could be settled in small claims court with a limit of $2,000.00, another option would have been to have a mediator decide the case, both parties did try to go this route before the lawsuit was eventually dropped. If the case had gone through mediation, the original $3,800 contract fee would have been the limit the lawyer could obtain, the initial lawsuit of $15,000 plus contract costs was an attempt by the lawyer to inflate the value of services received. The lawyer was very lucky to receive such a light punishment; if it can be called that.

[JR1]

Hence public liability insurance

[William W]

John,
Thanks for taking up the conversation.

*

. . .Apparently, there was some concern that the lawyer's demands bordered on extortion . . .

Thanks for that added information, that’s interesting.

What I do know about USA law (and that knowledeg is very VERY limited), I understand that one element that ‘Extortion’ requires, is something like ‘creating a menace in the mind of the victim’- so in that regard it would be a similar to our criminal charge of ‘Intimidation’, which my Barrister outlined to me – and again this was based purely on the extracts of the letter from the Groom to the Photographer.

WW

[Shadowman]

John,
Thanks for taking up the conversation.

*

Thanks for that added information, that’s interesting.

What I do know about USA law (and that knowledeg is very VERY limited), I understand that one element that ‘Extortion’ requires, is something like ‘creating a menace in the mind of the victim’- so in that regard it would be a similar to our criminal charge of ‘Intimidation’, which my Barrister outlined to me – and again this was based purely on the extracts of the letter from the Groom to the Photographer.

WW

William,

Extortion is a very specific act according to U.S. law and there are so many layers (threat to kidnap, threat to commit violence) that the lawyer was probably able to prove that wasn't his intent very easily. Coercion (forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats) however is would be closer to the intent of the lawyer.

[William W]

It's nice to get an insight into some of this from a conversation and not a U.S. TV Series. Thanks.

havagrateweggend

[JHzlwd]

I've never had any intention of pursuing wedding photography and I've read enough warnings from others that make me even less interested but this story just sounds like a complete nightmare. That being said it was enjoyable to read this article and see how things unfolded.

http://petapixel.com/2014/12/09/gary...t-nelson-tang/

I avoid wedding photography as if it were ebola. Being an amateur it's easy saying "No" but am occasionally inveigled into it. Expectations are always high yet, you tend to be regarded as something of a nuisance by everyone. My last gig was a couple of years ago - a very expensive, gala affair. These people could have hired pro's but wanted me in there as a favor to them because they like my photography. Yes, it's possible I was seduced by flattery. There were weird rules. The photographer was to be totally discrete at all times: no flash, no posed photos, no being obvious about anything. It was tough. The ambient lighting was terrible with lots of backlight from late afternoon sun and fluorescent overhead. It was a stressful, miserable time for me while everyone else had the fun.

Well, I got lucky and give all the credit to Nikon and their D800 in this case. It nailed every exposure. Even the ISO 3200's looked fantastic. Not one dud and the client was delighted. A miracle for sure. Never, ever again.

A couple of "pro" colleagues have gotten out of the wedding business with some of the reasons having to do with situations as described in the link (and this is Canada where like to think we are not as prone to litigation as our US friends). One of them says the biggest problem is the client often refusing to pay off the contract. As the bills for the event pour in, the poor photographer is apt to get pushed down the list of creditors while the client decides to content himself and the rest of the wedding party with snapshots taken by relatives and friends. He says pursuing this in the courts only besmears your reputation with accusations you are the sort of mean spirited ba... - er - rascal who picks on newlyweds and their kindly, aging parents.

Best wishes,
k.

[Polar01]

Here is a take on the above thread, this one explains more of the legal side, interesting read.

Cheers: Allan

http://petapixel.com/2014/11/23/revi...00000-lawsuit/

[William W]

thanks Allan

[Shadowman]

I avoid wedding photography as if it were ebola. Being an amateur it's easy saying "No" but am occasionally inveigled into it. Expectations are always high yet, you tend to be regarded as something of a nuisance by everyone. My last gig was a couple of years ago - a very expensive, gala affair. These people could have hired pro's but wanted me in there as a favor to them because they like my photography. Yes, it's possible I was seduced by flattery. There were weird rules. The photographer was to be totally discrete at all times: no flash, no posed photos, no being obvious about anything. It was tough. The ambient lighting was terrible with lots of backlight from late afternoon sun and fluorescent overhead. It was a stressful, miserable time for me while everyone else had the fun.

Well, I got lucky and give all the credit to Nikon and their D800 in this case. It nailed every exposure. Even the ISO 3200's looked fantastic. Not one dud and the client was delighted. A miracle for sure. Never, ever again.

A couple of "pro" colleagues have gotten out of the wedding business with some of the reasons having to do with situations as described in the link (and this is Canada where like to think we are not as prone to litigation as our US friends). One of them says the biggest problem is the client often refusing to pay off the contract. As the bills for the event pour in, the poor photographer is apt to get pushed down the list of creditors while the client decides to content himself and the rest of the wedding party with snapshots taken by relatives and friends. He says pursuing this in the courts only besmears your reputation with accusations you are the sort of mean spirited ba... - er - rascal who picks on newlyweds and their kindly, aging parents.

Best wishes,
k.

With your streak of luck I'm surprised you don't take on more assignments, after that scenario I'd be cocky as well as flattered.