Yahtzee!

[Nicks Pics]

Yahtzee Dice,

Not my usual photography game, so comments and critique welcome. Shot with burst shooting, LED video light held above. It was a little hard to get them in focus (and in the frame) since they were moving fast and I was at close range, thus there was a small ratio of keepers. Some credit to my dice roller/light holder!

#1, 1/1600, F/8.0, ISO 5000



#2, 1/100, F/8.0, ISO 125

[Shadowman]

A worthy exercise, try playing with the direction of the toss in position to the camera (throw towards, parallel, away). And try to increase shutter speed as much as possible, bump up ISO as well. Nice efforts.

[joebranko]

Difficult shot, well taken! I like Shadowman's suggestions too.

[Downrigger]

Very nice, Nick.

[mknittle]

I like them both though the first works a little better for me.

[Loose Canon]

Hi Nick!

Nice work with a great idea.

Yeah, I’d say your focus is a bit off. But you did a great job with your ISO setting.

This one would be a bit tricky because you might need a depth of field deeper than F/8 will give you. But, of course, that would decrease your shutter speed such that you might not stop the dice.

I like that you caught them all in the air.

The second one is cool too. The motion works well!

A couple of questions if I may?

How did you set your focus for the scene?

Do you have a flash?

[IzzieK]

Nick -- when I saw the first picture, I thought of Terry (Loose Canon). I had pretty much already made up my mind on how he is going to do this shot. (Really, Izzie!!!) He'd hang these overhead with fishing line on a wreath holder and shoot. No bucket nor water underneath, just the table, dry as it may look...then he will make it look like it had been thrown by hand...he is good at that, eh Terry? The remove any distractions in PP.

Anyway, I particularly like #1 and the reflections of the dice made this shot really good...love it. #2 is OK too...

[Nicks Pics]

Thanks all for your comments!

A worthy exercise, try playing with the direction of the toss in position to the camera (throw towards, parallel, away). And try to increase shutter speed as much as possible, bump up ISO as well. Nice efforts.

Nice work with a great idea.

Yeah, I’d say your focus is a bit off. But you did a great job with your ISO setting.

This one would be a bit tricky because you might need a depth of field deeper than F/8 will give you. But, of course, that would decrease your shutter speed such that you might not stop the dice.

I like that you caught them all in the air.

The second one is cool too. The motion works well!

A couple of questions if I may?

How did you set your focus for the scene?

Do you have a flash?

I have some shots of the dice going various directions, but there were only a few out of the 200 M/L that I shot that had the dice in the focus plane, or at least somewhat in it, (such as these) and even in the frame. It doesn't look like I was all that close, but the dice were only 1-2 ft away, I think, which, as well as the aperture of F/8, made for a narrow DOF. Probably to do this best, I would need to get a greater DOF, but I couldn't back up too far and zoom in because I would then have had a more narrow field of view perhaps. On the other hand, with a shot like this I imagine that if everything was in focus, it would detract from the feel of the picture.

I pre-focused on a certain place on the table top, then the dice were rolled down on that spot. No chance to focus after the roll! As for settings, this was done at night on the kitchen table, my helper was holding an LED video light on full blast over the dice by hand. I don't have any speed lights, don't know if or how they would have been helpful, but probably a continuous light was more practical. So anyway, for image #1 I used ISO of 5000, my camera could have done 6400, not sure why I wasn't using it, but probably because noise was getting bad at 5000, and a little higher ISO probably wouldn't have helped all that much. 1/1600 was about the fastest SS my other settings and the light allowed. And the same with F/8. I would probably experiment with other settings if I were to try it again. Hope this answers your questions.

[Stagecoach]

Very good Nick,

I suppose there are two main things to consider here, focus and shutter speed.

For me the DOF seems adequate but it is a fairly straightforward aspect to increase if you have the lighting to do it without pushing your ISO to unusable values.

I'm wondering if you could tackle this using the ambient light (video) plus on camera flash. Using a slower shutter speed and rear sync flash could you achieve movement and freeze the action? Terry will know the answers.

[PhotoByTrace]

This is very cool. I love the motion blur of 2 and it makes me ponder further. I too was wondering about rear sync flash to aid in this situation.

[ashcroft]

I'm wondering if you could tackle this using the ambient light (video) plus on camera flash. Using a slower shutter speed and rear sync flash could you achieve movement and freeze the action? Terry will know the answers.

Let's say a moving object travels from left to right. Rear synch, or 2nd synch would record motion blur on the left from the ambient light. The flash, firing at the end of the camera exposure, would 'freeze' the object on the right side. So, you would get frozen obect on right, with motion trail 'behind' it on the left.

If, in the same scenario, you used first synch, the flash would fire immediately, freezing the object on the left, and the trail would be recorded by any ambient light on the right side, indicating that the object was moving right to left, even though it wasn't. That might look odd if there were other contextual evidence in the shot that it should be left to right, such as the hand of the dice-thrower on the left side of the shot. Like all things in life, it just depends.

[Stagecoach]

That was the idea and could give a bit of a twist to this scenario. Very much trial and error with judging movement though but fun.

[ashcroft]

As for settings, this was done at night on the kitchen table, my helper was holding an LED video light on full blast over the dice by hand. I don't have any speed lights, don't know if or how they would have been helpful, but probably a continuous light was more practical. So anyway, for image #1 I used ISO of 5000, my camera could have done 6400, not sure why I wasn't using it, but probably because noise was getting bad at 5000, and a little higher ISO probably wouldn't have helped all that much. 1/1600 was about the fastest SS my other settings and the light allowed. And the same with F/8. I would probably experiment with other settings if I were to try it again. Hope this answers your questions.

I think they would be helpful. You could have set the camera to say ISO200 (no noise), and the aperture to say f/16 to get much more DOF. That would require more light than you had using static lights, but a flash could handle it. In #1 you have a shutter speed of 1/1600 which seems to be fast enough to freeze the action, but you did so at the expense of ISO and aperture. Also, with flash your exposure speed (not camera shutter speed) would have probably been faster than 1/1600. The camera would have to be set to your max flash synch speed for the camera (say, 1/200s), but the actual flash firing is very fast - anywhere from 1/1000s down to 1/10000. With no other (ambient) light, and relying just on the flash you can therefore freeze action with a camera shutter speed of say 1/200. Weird isn't it?

Having said all that, I do like #2. The motion puts me in mind of a dancer doing a twirl.

[Nicks Pics]

Thanks Graham, Trace, Ashcroft,

Well I am very much a newbie to studio type photography since I have mostly done outdoor photography. I didn't really even try my flash, since I just knew it wouldn't let me use a very high SS. But after your suggestions, I think it might be worth a try. So thanks for the ideas.

[ashcroft]

Thanks Graham, Trace, Ashcroft,

Well I am very much a newbie to studio type photography since I have mostly done outdoor photography. I didn't really even try my flash, since I just knew it wouldn't let me use a very high SS. But after your suggestions, I think it might be worth a try. So thanks for the ideas.

Give it a try. Set you camera to manual mode and your flash. Use ISO200 f/16 and the SS doesn't really matter if the room is dark but set it to 1/125s. Get the flash close to the dice because the closer you get the more light you have (inverse square law) for f/16 setting. You will probably need some diffuser on the flash, but for now just try it with bare flash to see if it works. If the dice are moving across the focal plane (left to right or other way) then set 2nd curtain synch - although that may not make much difference for this shot.

You might also want to get lower down. Perhaps try it on a table top, with camera at table level so you can see more space between dice and surface. Is it raining there? This is a rainy day thing.

[Loose Canon]

Thanks for taking those questions Nick. Photographing motion in the studio, whether stopping it or showing it is a blast!

I would have maybe offered a suggestion on focusing the scene but since I had no idea how you went about it, it would be hard tellin’ not knowin’! I would have manually focused the scene with auto focus disengaged for the shot. Probably close to middle of the scene or so.

My opinion (and my opinion only) on focus with these shots would be that I would have wanted #1 to be in sharp focus. All of it. Especially since the obvious goal would be stopping them mid-roll. There is a difference in motion blur and out of focus. Out of focus looks like a mistake while motion blur (shot #2) is an obviously purposeful shot.

To reiterate, the biggest differences of flash vs. continuous are power and duration. Power, by giving you more available light to use, will allow you to shoot stopped down further for DoF considerations, drop your shutter speed and allow you to shoot at lower ISO values. Duration is what stops the action at a shutter speed that ordinarily wouldn’t stop the action on its own.

Another thing you might try are dropping the dice rather than tossing them across the scene. In the shot you won’t be able to tell the difference of tossing them or dropping them anyway, but it might be worth trying. It might keep the bones a little more closely grouped in a focal plane. There are a lot of ways to go about it. Go wild and try different stuff!

If I may add to Rob’s sage advice? When you set your shutter, and you are looking to kill ambient, take a shot without firing the flash. You should get a black frame, no light whatsoever. I shoot with ambient lights on but 1/200th (my camera’s x-sync) kills them. I shoot with no lights fired and get that black frame even with some overhead lights on.

Second curtain firing is a little different. You are going to need to drag your shutter a bit more to get the motion blur effect. To get the effect you like you will need to play with different shutter speeds because you want continuous light affecting the scene. There is a difference between ambient light and continuous light in the studio by definition. I like to set my continuous lights (with matched bulbs) the way I want and then shoot in a dark studio so the only lights affecting the scene are the continuous lights I purposely put there. No overhead or other lights (this would be ambient/environment light) on to affect the shot with a slower shutter. Maybe start with ½ or ¼ second and see how you like it. You will also need to shoot on a tripod with second curtain.

[ashcroft]

Another thing you might try are dropping the dice rather than tossing them across the scene. In the shot you won’t be able to tell the difference of tossing them or dropping them anyway, but it might be worth trying. It might keep the bones a little more closely grouped in a focal plane.

Yes, that's a good idea, it might give them more bounce, and it will give you more control. In fact, if the camera is on a tripod and the flash is on a stand (or even just lying on the table) you could do it all yourself (provided your arms are long enough) as the light can be pretty close to the dice.

[Nicks Pics]

Thanks Terry and Rob, I'll have some more ideas next for next time if I give this another go, thanks to your advice. Now go see if you can do it yourselfs!

[Loose Canon]

Now go see if you can do it yourselfs!

Nick, I asked God if I could shoot jet-setting supermodels, celebrities, travel to all the bestest places on the planet, and always be at the right place at the right time with a camera.

He said: “No Terry. Sorry. But here is what I will do for you. I will give you this toothpick. I will give you a way to understand why I am giving it to you. The rest I will depend on you to figure out. If you get it Terry, and quite frankly I’m not holding much hope, then I am charging you with saying why and what you learned.”

I thought about it for a time and decided I could not have been given a better gift! I will always be figuring it out and that was the point. For once, I understand!

This is a continuous lighting/second curtain flash studio shot Nick. Exactly in the vein you are shooting in. Two DIY clamp lights and one flash in a cheap softbox. So I have already taken your advice to see if I could do it myself! And beyond. I don’t give advice lightly on this Forum Nick, nor do I take it lightly. But if I can do it, anyone can Brother!

[Nicks Pics]

Nick, I asked God if I could shoot jet-setting supermodels, celebrities, travel to all the bestest places on the planet, and always be at the right place at the right time with a camera.

He said: “No Terry. Sorry. But here is what I will do for you. I will give you this toothpick. I will give you a way to understand why I am giving it to you. The rest I will depend on you to figure out. If you get it Terry, and quite frankly I’m not holding much hope, then I am charging you with saying why and what you learned.”

I thought about it for a time and decided I could not have been given a better gift! I will always be figuring it out and that was the point. For once, I understand!

This is a continuous lighting/second curtain flash studio shot Nick. Exactly in the vein you are shooting in. Two DIY clamp lights and one flash in a cheap softbox. So I have already taken your advice to see if I could do it myself! And beyond. I don’t give advice lightly on this Forum Nick, nor do I take it lightly. But if I can do it, anyone can Brother!

Terry, the toothpick was the right gift for you... The dice were a good gift for me- but actually they were given to my sister- but I was using them anyway. But I'm afraid I will not be given a toothpick until I figure out the dice???

P.S. I knew you knew what you were talking about and I'm sure you could do the dice! I just wanted to see the wonderful outcome!