Off camera flash or strobe unit

[chauncey]

Grrr...I'm now convinced of the need, so...lets assume that all my work is within range of an electrical
outlet, don't think an on-camera flash is needed, and that I have financially shallow pockets.

My surfing indicates that they basically serve the same purpose and it would seem to be that strobes
are less expensive and often more powerful.

Where might I be FOS...why might I be dissatisfied with a strobe unit...which one recommended?

[rpcrowe]

Chauncey...

First, we would need to know what camera you will be shooting with in order to suggest specific hotshoe flash units. Studio strobes are generic...

Secondly, what type of photography do you plan to do with the camera and flash.

Yes, there are a lot of Chinese made studio type flashes that are less expensive than hotshoe flashes.

The advantages of a studio flash would be:

Normally inexpensive studio flashes are more powerful than many hotshoe flashes.
Normally most studio type flashes have modeling lights which allow WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) lighting.
Studio flashes run on a/c power no need to recharge or buy batteries.
Studio flashes have a constant recharge time.
Studio flashes can be mounted on a light stand without accessories.
Studio flashes can use modifiers such as umbrellas or softboxes without extra accessories
Studio flashes can be triggered in several ways, p/c cord, IR trigger, radio trigger.
Additionally, most studio flashes have optical slaves which will trigger the flash at the flash of another slave

Advantages of a hotshoe flash:

Portable.
You don't need a/c current.
Can be used outdoors for fill flash.
Light weight.
You don't need a light stand and can use the flash on camera at times or shoot with an off camera bracket.
Hotshoe flashes can be synced using the hotshoe itself; the off camera flash cord (specific to the type camera) or with some cameras using the built-in flash can trigger the hotshoe flash. Additionally, some hotshoe flashes can be used as masters to trigger other hotshoe slaves which can be used as slaves...


Another advantage of a hotshoe flash is that many of them have auto exposure control. Many will allow you to use either auto exposure control or manual. Others are manual only or automatic only. Auto exposure control will make like a lot easy for fast shooting...

BTW: I almost always bounce my hotshoe flash and modify the light with a Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Pro

I have both studio strobes and several hotshoe flashes. However, if I only had one type, I would lean towards the hotshoe flash because of its versatility. I use my hotshoe flash for fill light outdoors very often. Since I want that capability, I need hotshoe flashes with high speed sync which will allow me to sync at a faster shutter speed than the 1/250 max sync speed of my Canon 7D cameras. This allows me to stop action with a faster shutter speed and/or use a wider aperture to gain a shallow DOF to separate my subject from the background.

[PhotomanJohn]

I agree with Richard. I have both studio strobes (mono-lights, used to have power pack with separate heads) with a battery pack for field use and hot shoe flashes. They both have their advantages depending on the application so we do need to know how you plan to use them. Sometimes I use them together. Like Richard, I would have hot shoe flashes if I could only have one type.

If you decide on strobes, give us your price range and then we can provide some suggestions, pro and cons.

John

[JR1]

Grrr...I'm now convinced of the need, so...lets assume that all my work is within range of an electrical
outlet, don't think an on-camera flash is needed, and that I have financially shallow pockets.

My surfing indicates that they basically serve the same purpose and it would seem to be that strobes
are less expensive and often more powerful.

Where might I be FOS...why might I be dissatisfied with a strobe unit...which one recommended?

Why would you want a strobe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe_light

Or do you mean off camera flashgun

[chauncey]

I think that I want one strobe unit capable of a continuous lighting scenario and action stopping flash
with stand, anyone have a problem with this one...http://www.amazon.com/StudioPRO-Mono...ts+photography
Will it freeze hummingbird's wings, I ask out of ignorance?

[xpatUSA]

Why would you want a strobe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe_light

Or do you mean off camera flashgun

or even "off-camera flash-gun" . . (come back Mr Hyphen, all is forgiven and the world needs you).

Ah, the wonderful world of photography, where everything has several names depending on who's talking.

Perhaps he also meant speedlight "the brand name used by Nikon Corporation for their photographic flash units, used since the company's introduction of strobe flashes in the 1960s."

Oh look, someone said "strobe flashes" . . let's keep those variations a-coming folks

Meanwhile, William found "Monolight Photography Photo Studio Strobe Flash" which just about covers it

[xpatUSA]

I think that I want one strobe unit capable of a continuous lighting scenario and action stopping flash
with stand, anyone have a problem with this one...http://www.amazon.com/StudioPRO-Mono...ts+photography

Looks like you get two "monolights", not one. Maybe it's a "duolight"? (just kidding, I'm on a semantic roll today).

Will it freeze hummingbird's wings, I ask out of ignorance?

Said wings flap at between 22 and 78 beats per second. If you know the length of wing and arc of travel then you can get tip speed from which you could answer your question.

Well, we can not say "freeze" really without knowing the flash duration.

[Mike Buckley]

(come back Mr Hyphen, all is forgiven and the world needs you).

That's also my pet peeve.

[PhotomanJohn]

William - I have no experience with these inexpensive units. Flash performance versus ratings vary significantly but if you take them at their word then these light's output is close to that of typical hot shoe flashes. The sorts of things that one would expect from units in this price range are:

1. Lower reliability especially with heavy use.
2. Variation in light output from flash to flash especially with variations in AC line voltage.
3. Variation in color temperature with power setting and over time.
4. Lack of compatibility with other types of light modifiers.

That being said, they are probably useable for table top work, headshots and the like. As far as stopping hummingbird wings, the manufacturer doesn't state the flash duration but it is probably 1/600th of a second or faster. I am not a bird photographer so I am not sure that you will get totally crisp wings with these. Hot shoe flashes on the other hand have very short durations (1/1000 to 1/40,000 second) depending on power setting.

They are cheap enough, have good user ratings and Amazon is super easy when it comes to returning a purchase, you might want to give them a try.

Good Luck,

John

[Mike Buckley]

Chauncey wants to use these for continuous light, so I assume he means he wants them to have modeling lights. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I confirm for him whether either or both of these units has that capability.

[Loose Canon]

I think that I want one strobe unit capable of a continuous lighting scenario and action stopping flash with stand

A strobe unit is a flash and is not a continuous light source (unless you are planning to use the modeling lights as a continuous light source).

anyone have a problem with this one...http://www.amazon.com/StudioPRO-Mono...ts+photography

Yes. I would have a problem with that Manfred.

They are not powerful enough @ 100Ws each. Not even close. And that’s bare. Start adding diffusion (umbrellas), etc. and you are not going to be happy.

I would recommend at a very minimum 300Ws each. Even that wouldn’t be enough for a large number of situations but would be a pretty good start.

Will it freeze hummingbird's wings, I ask out of ignorance?

With my experience shooting hummers I would say you will need about 1/2000th sec. minimum exposure to stop their wings. You would need to know what the minimum flash duration (t.1 not t.5 time) is with these to know if they can do that. The t.1 time will occur at lowest power setting typically. With 100Ws the minimum power setting isn’t going to give you much light. Hardly any through a modifier.

Edit: The Amazon ad mentioned they have 75W modeling lights.

[PhotomanJohn]

They are not powerful enough @ 100Ws each. Not even close. And that’s bare. Start adding diffusion (umbrellas), etc. and you are not going to be happy.

Remember that the OP is trying to compare studio strobes with hot shoe flashes, not full-blown studio strobes for general purpose studio work. The units he found on Amazon are supposed to be 100WS with a guide number of 30 which is similar to hot shoe flash units.

John

[chauncey]

That didn't elicit much enthusiasm...this better? http://www.amazon.com/CowboyStudio-S...ts+photography

[PhotomanJohn]

You haven't given us any details of how you are going to use the flash.

This appears to be a better unit and Cowboy Studios has been around for awhile and will probably provide you decent customer service if needed. Add a reflector to the single light and you can do most of what can be done with two lights.

Have fun.

John

[chauncey]

flowers/water droplets/smoke/or anything that strikes my fancy.

[Loose Canon]

Remember that the OP is trying to compare studio strobes with hot shoe flashes, not full-blown studio strobes for general purpose studio work. The units he found on Amazon are supposed to be 100WS with a guide number of 30 which is similar to hot shoe flash units.

I’m not forgetting anything John and I also don’t understand the statement of “full blown studio strobes”. I don’t know how they are blown but a studio strobe is a studio strobe and I have just offered an opinion on the one’s he is looking at. What would be your definition of a “full-blown” studio strobe? Also, the guide number on my Speedlights are quite a bit higher than 30.

The OP also mentioned we were to assume he would be close to AC power, an on-camera flash was not needed and from his research he found that studio lights can be less expensive and more powerful. This, to me, indicates a studio light set-up rather than a speedlight set-up would be more beneficial. It is possible to get a better set-up for the same or less $$ with a lot more juice than a speedlight purchase.

So with this interpretation of the original OP I simply recommended that he go with a more powerful studio rig than the one he was looking at, which could easily meet the budget. There is no question that this is the better way to go in accordance with the OP. In fact, Chauncey’s second choice of strobe kit makes much more sense that the first kit. More power, higher GN, softbox rather than umbrella, slave capability (which I didn’t see with the first choice) higher wattage modeling light (and it is possible the OP wants this as a continuous source), better vendor.

He also gave a hint of the usage mentioning stopping hummingbird wings.

[Loose Canon]

flowers/water droplets/smoke/or anything that strikes my fancy.

Awesome.

All the more reason to shoot for a little better rig at the get-go (there's that hyphen!) since who knows where your fancy may strike?

[PhotomanJohn]

Terry - Sorry if my response came across wrong. There is sometimes a tendency on forums to drive folks into buying more than they need. Chauncey later confirmed that his target subjects are flowers, water droplets and the like which could easily be done with a couple 100WS units.

I don't know which speed lights you have but most have outputs of around 100WS with guide numbers in the neighborhood of 30 at there wider angle settings (600EX-RT: 26 at 20mm, SB-610: 34 at 35mm) which is a better comparison to studio strobes than the zoomed ratings.

I agree that his second choice is a better one (first units do have slaves) and will be a better starting point if he wants to grow his system to take on larger subjects.

I'm just trying to be helpful and not get under anyone's skin.

John

[Manfred M]

William - Sorry about the delay in getting back; we just arrived home after a 6 hour drive back from Southern Ontario.

I'm with Terry, I wouldn't touch that setup with a 10-foot pole, for exactly same reasons he stated. I would also never get a head that is less than 350W-s, preferably a bit more, just because of the limitations that they impose on you. Terry and I both use 640 W-s units.

I see a few other issues with these units:

1. I expect that each unit is 100W-s, which is giving you roughly the same power output as a higher end Speedlite; so they have a lot of the disadvantages of studio lights without the advantages of flexibility Speedlight would buy you.

2. I'm not a fan of umbrellas for strobes; they simply do not control the light well enough. I use umbrellas similar to the ones offered in this kit with my Speedlights.

3. The light stands do not go high enough. I would want a light stand that goes to at least 10 ft, preferably 12 ft. Try shooting a tall person standing up the the 76" stand they offer with the kit. Not a good solution... I personally prefer using air-cushioned stands to prevent me damaging my gear when I do something stupid and am not paying attention when I lower the lights. I personally like C-stands even better, but these are not air-cushioned and are a lot heavier and a lot more expensive.

4. I think these units might have a modeling light, but the specs are not clear at all. If they do, it would be nice to know the wattage, and that is not mentioned either.


I would suggest you have a look at Paul C Buff Alien Bees. I lot of well known commercial photographers started with them and some still use them. I suspect that if you built an Alien Bees kit (start with one head only), you'd actually get a much better setup for roughly the same money as the Amazon kit. You might be able to find used units on eBay.

http://www.paulcbuff.com/b800.php


If you want to go the Speedlite route; I suggest you might want to consider brands like Yongnuo or Phottix (there are some others as well). They sell for a lot less money than Speedlites and a number of CiC users use and like them. Add a lightstand, an umbrella hold and an umbrella (these three items should set you back less than $100)

The only other remaining question would be triggering the lights. I personally use radio triggers, and mine these are super reliable (I use PocketWizards), this is an issue you will need to address, regardless of the type of light you go for.


And yes, these should freeze hummingbird wings that beat beat between 50 and 200 times a second.

[D L]

If you want to go the Speedlite route; I suggest you might want to consider brands like Yongnuo or Phottix (there are some others as well). They sell for a lot less money than Speedlites and a number of CiC users use and like them. Add a lightstand, an umbrella hold and an umbrella (these three items should set you back less than $100)

The only other remaining question would be triggering the lights. I personally use radio triggers, and mine these are super reliable (I use PocketWizards), this is an issue you will need to address, regardless of the type of light you go for.

If you do go the sppedlite route, the Yonguo YN-560III or YN-560IV have built in radio triggers (currently around $US70 on ebay)
add a YN-560-TX which gives you complete control of the off camera flash (manual only) unit/s. (currently ~$US40) Very handy when its up on a 10' light stand.


You'll also have to factor in the cost of some decent rechargeable AA batteries (e.g. eneloops) and a good charger, if you go the speedlite direction. This is as well as the light stand, umbrella bracket and light modifier already mentioned.