What's going on here?

[TonyW]

I agree with Dave and can see a big difference between the two versions in post #10. The second of these looks like Tobias's edit in post #19. This thread is a good demonstration.

[Krawuntzel]

Ok so I changed the settings that Dave just suggested and re-edited, although I think I may have picked a different RAW image,

Tobias, it is not the same picture (look at the very top and bottom right corner).
For me it is a lesson learned from this thread: It is very difficult to judge from monitor to monitor about color hues - maybe this should be the last issue when we comment on a picture post?
It also reminds me of a statement of a fine art photographer, roughly saying: you can only judge a picture printed.
Erwin

[TobyMac]

Thanks Erwin I think we should leave it at that I definitely learned a lot from this and thanks to everyone else that comented as well!!!

[Manfred M]

Tobias, it is not the same picture (look at the very top and bottom right corner).
For me it is a lesson learned from this thread: It is very difficult to judge from monitor to monitor about color hues - maybe this should be the last issue when we comment on a picture post?
It also reminds me of a statement of a fine art photographer, roughly saying: you can only judge a picture printed.
Erwin

Erwin - that is probably even more difficult to do.

Which paper was used for the print; everything from base colour, to texture, even the paper brand,, what light are you viewing it under (and what viewing colour temperature assumption was made in the printing process), which printer / inks were used. These all have an impact on the printed image we are viewing.

The arguments for printing are even more complex than viewing the shot on screen.

[Krawuntzel]

Erwin - that is probably even more difficult to do...

On this one agreed - I do not happen to fly to SA every night
As Tobias suggested: It will be another thread to exchange the views.
Erwin

[Downrigger]

It’s a great capture, Tobias, and has sparked a helpful thread.

Welcome to the world of color. These are a bunch of useful posts, and I have struggled with color here myself and gained much useful information from the resulting posts (and the tutorials). That said, I have heard here (and tried to read further) enough about color science and computational color management to realize there is a world of understanding log units beyond my beginner’s grasp.

For me, once one starts to be conscious of color in one’s images one enters a relativistic realm in which “correct” is an extremely difficult-to-obtain if not impossible ideal. The object’s color is a dataset that is modified by incident and reflected light, your retina, your camera’s sensor, your processing program’s gamut, your (and any other) monitor’s calibration and profile, the printer’s gamut and calibration, etc. Perfect alignment of these is impossible, and close alignment of these to ensure at best a close approximation of veracity is a challenge.

I have taken to using often using a “color checker” when I am shooting so that I can obtain a more “true” profile when post-processing, but that provides me with only a baseline from which I modify image further (who never touches the HSL, vibrance etc. ?) to express better what I saw, or wanted to have the image reveal. As suggested here, I do profile/calibrate my monitor periodically, and export from the larger color spaces of processing to the smaller s RGB space of monitors (and some printers).

This all can be discouraging (that the “real” color is contingent, not absolute) – but for me it is instead freeing to know that I can come at least quite close to what I think I saw if I intend it (as would be the case for an excellent shot like yours here where presentation of the “real” colors has ornithologic importance), but also, more often, to be comfortable relying on impression and creative intent.

[Dave Humphries]

Those seeing a significant difference between the two images in Manfred's post #10 above (e.g. Dave and Tony) are using non-colour managed web browser - and possibly their computer Operating System (OS) settings may have an impact.

Please note I am specifically talking about the web browser here, not the screen (regardless whether it has been calibrated/'colour-managed'). I should also state that I am viewing on a monitor which is capable of sRGB at best*. I am running FF36 (it updated today) on a Windows 7 + SP1.

* However, if the browser is not colour managed, this would not prevent me seeing a difference.

FireFox is colour managed, so I see no difference.
If an image is tagged as using the ProPhoto colour space, FireFox understands this and scales the colour gains to account for the wider gamut within the 255 bits (of each colour channel) in the 8 bit jpg file. It can then display it to me with the correct saturation and (as far as my monitor is capable) hue.

Internet Explorer (IE), especially on some older OS, is renowned for not being 'colour managed' by default - this means that if an image is posted using aRGB or ProPhoto, IE may not honour even correctly tagged images and simply assumes it is sRGB, so it scales back the colours and subtly changes the hues of some.

It is possible to fix this, but it is so long since I did it on my PC, I can't remember how!
e.g. if I view this thread on IE11 (in Win 7), I still see the same colours in both images in post #10 above (and on other web examples designed to show such a difference).

I wonder what browser and version Dave and Tony are using?
Also whether the platform; e.g. tablet, phone makes a difference.
As it happens, I also tried Safari and Chrome, I seem to have all my browsers configured to honour embedded colour space tags in images.

I can't explain some of Erwin's results in post #11, since these appear to contradict what I know to be true from past experience, but it is a complex subject and I don't claim complete knowledge, especially as I don't have a monitor capable of wide gamut display. Or I may simply have mis-understood.

Beware, a quick web search reveals a lot of very outdated information is on the internet on the topic of browser colour spaces, image tags, etc.


On my own monitor, all four images are the same colour (even switching between in Lytebox) and this looks natural enough to me given the admitted red bias due to the time of day it was shot.

It is a very nice capture, enabling us to appreciate the eye colour as well.

UPDATE:

I just tried viewing post #10 on TapaTalk on my Android phone and that does show a difference in saturation between the two images. I'm not surprised - and never use it to comment on images anyway.

HTH, Dave

[Krawuntzel]

has sparked a helpful thread...This all can be discouraging (that the “real” color is contingent, not absolute) – but for me it is instead freeing to know that I can come at least quite close to what I think I saw if I intend it (as would be the case for an excellent shot like yours here where presentation of the “real” colors has ornithologic importance), but also, more often, to be comfortable relying on impression and creative intent.

I share this philosophy.
But I think, it would be better to discuss the many issues involved in this in another thread.
Erwin

[Krawuntzel]

...I can't explain some of Erwin's results in post #11, since these appear to contradict what I know to be true from past experience, but it is a complex subject and I don't claim complete knowledge, especially as I don't have a monitor capable of wide gamut display. Or I may simply have mis-understood. HTH, Dave

So I can not (or I am not able to) "reproduce" "Your true past experience" being right/wrong - I would like to take these questions to another category/thread - as they are getting very philosophical and tech, which I would like very much to persue.
Erwin

[TonyW]

In reply to Dave Humphries, I am using Safari. My original comment was from my iPad, where the difference is clear. When I change to the iMac, the difference disappears and both images in post #10 are the same, as far as I can tell like the second one before. This is a lesson to me. I can't see any option in Safari to tell it whether to take note of colour spaces or not. I suspect that it is the version of Safari on the iPad which makes the difference, not the screen.

I must learn to properly understand colour spaces sometime.

[TobyMac]

Thanks for the info Dave, I wasn't actually aware of the difference in browsers.

[davidedric]

Yes, I was using a non colour managed setup, in fact an Android tablet which does not natively support colour management, so the choice of browser becomes irrelevant.

A good lesson for me not to comment from my tablet. The other lesson is how important it is to always post in sRGB.

Incidentally, although the tablet is not colour managed, sRGB images are quite close to what I see on my main kit. I'm thinking I should bookmark this, as a check on whatever software I am using is colour managed

Dave

P.S. Tony, I believe the iPad is not capable of colour management either.

Here is what X-rite has tried to do, but with next to no take up: http://www.xrite.com/colortrue

[dan marchant]

I did however use lightroom for the first time to really edit this image so I may have missed something there.

Tobias,
What colour space did you export the image in? (check Lightroom's export dialogue.)

[Manfred M]

Tobias,
What colour space did you export the image in? (check Lightroom's export dialogue.)

Dan - if you click on the link below the image and open up his Flickr page and check the metadata there, it shows ProPhoto is used in this image.