A little Composition Help

[TheBigE]

All,

Still trying to figure out how to capture some nice candid photos. I recently attended a Boardgames night at our local library and captured a few images. Now I understand that many on the forum were not in attendance so it is hard to comment on how the composition could have been improved in the given situation. However, I cannot seem to summarize a result of the evening photos.

In one way I feel there are are all pretty similar and I basically added Camera Tilt to the Photo to add some drama to the photos. I would welcome some compositional tips on these below and any of the ones in my gallery. Basically I need some help thinking outside the box to improve the compositions.

Gallery is Here and some Samples are posted below

Thanks

I like the photo, except for chopping of the top of the players head on left


Again another good photo of a group playing, but should have stepped back one step


Close up of game, kinda weird with hand coming in from No Where

[Shadowman]

2nd and third are fine and I don't see evidence of your tilt technique as much as I do in the first; which makes it look like a hasty grab shot. I'm sure the players didn't mind you taking their photograph, so if you were looking for a good composition just take your time and work it out in your head.

[Geoff F]

Exactly my first thoughts. The trouble with going for odd angles is that you have to make them appear deliberate and not accidental.

Good shots and a nice idea although is the colour just a fraction on the yellow side?

[Downrigger]

Lots of challenges here, and I think you handled them best in the second image. There is so much complexity in the surroundings that it can overwhelm your subject(s) and I think this is managed best in the second, which also shows good interaction. The empty chair was yours? Also, I agree, these are yellowish - perhaps addressed by cooling down the color temp a tad?

[Mike Buckley]

I actually disagree with you about your criticisms of the compositions. The characteristics of the so-called chopped heads that you mentioned are strengths for me. That's because they add to the casual nature of the environment and because it has happened to the appropriate people, providing emphasis in both scenes on the hand of the player that should and does draw our attention. As for the last one: it's a board game, so the context is that someone is reaching toward the board with no need in my mind to display any other part of the person doing the reaching.

I really like the depth of field you used that includes the cluttered background. It shows the players' environment.

Agreed with the others' comments about the color cast. Keep in mind that when skin tones are prevalent as in these photos, it's ideal to use a white balance, whether chosen in the camera or in the post-processing software, that renders natural skin tones.

[ShaneS]

Erik;

Count me in with Mike on the series. I'm not a particular fan of #1 but #2 and #3 portray the essence of a communal game night to me as well as the sense of camaraderie that these fellows have for each other and their enjoyment of the pastime.

Straighten out the first but be sure to leave the beer bottle in and fix the yellow color cast and you have a nice set here.

I also like what John said about composition and 'working it out in your head' before you press the shutter but I can't say that I practice what he preaches very well as it is much easier said/written than done

[Manfred M]

Erik - what strikes me about all the images, other than perhaps the last one seem to be snapshots rather than "photographs".

Photographs grab the viewers attention and will have an impact on the viewer, while a snapshot records an event. What I mean by that that they are too busy looking all over the image and my eyes can't quite figure out what to focus on and grabs my attention. I assume that you are trying for a photograph, rather than a snapshot.

I feel you have included too much material; get closer and simplify your composition. To quote the late, great photographer Robert Capa, "if your picture isn't good enough, you're not close enough".



A closer crop will give you a stronger composition. Also, I've noticed that you like using Dutch tilting in a lot of your work. Yes, there are times to use this technique, but it must look deliberate and you need to have a compositional reason for doing so.

[Mike Buckley]

Photographs grab the viewers attention and will have an impact on the viewer...my eyes can't quite figure out what to focus on

My take is very different, Manfred. While I think none of these images would ever win any awards, these images have an impact on me and I my eyes have no hesitation whatsoever immediately knowing what to focus on. I'm not mentioning this to disagree with you; instead I'm mentioning this so Erik understands that there are opposing points of view.

Robert Capa's quote that you mentioned applies to photos that aren't good enough. It doesn't apply to these photos in my mind because, indeed, they are good enough because they are close enough. As an example, your close crop leaves out important information:

• How many people are playing with this person?
• What are the approximate age, sex and whatever of the people playing with this person?
• Who is this person looking at?
• What else is on the game table?
• The list goes on and on.

That's not to say that your composition wouldn't be good; indeed, it would be good. However, if you want to show the impact of five people playing a board game, it doesn't make any sense to me to display a photo of only one of them.

[Manfred M]

My take is very different, Manfred. While I think none of these images would ever win any awards, these images have an impact on me and I my eyes have no hesitation whatsoever immediately knowing what to focus on. I'm not mentioning this to disagree with you; instead I'm mentioning this so Erik understands that there are opposing points of view.

Robert Capa's quote that you mentioned applies to photos that aren't good enough. It doesn't apply to these photos in my mind because, indeed, they are good enough because they are close enough. As an example, your close crop leaves out important information:

• How many people are playing with this person?
• What are the approximate age, sex and whatever of the people playing with this person?
• Who is this person looking at?
• What else is on the game table?
• The list goes on and on.

That's not to say that your composition wouldn't be good; indeed, it would be good. However, if you want to show the impact of five people playing a board game, it doesn't make any sense to me to display a photo of only one of them.

Understood Mike; but Erik specifically asked the following: "I would welcome some compositional tips on these below and any of the ones in my gallery. Basically I need some help thinking outside the box to improve the compositions."

Right now (and I'm thinking about some of his other site postings) Erik is trying to develop his compositional skills and the easiest one to learn is to simplify the image and the easiest way to do this is (often) to get closer to the subject.

Actually my first thought was to grab the ladder seen in the second image, move it over and shoot down on the people playing the game. Repeating patterns of the chairs and the black colour of the table could make an awesome image too.

[TheBigE]

2nd and third are fine and I don't see evidence of your tilt technique as much as I do in the first; which makes it look like a hasty grab shot. I'm sure the players didn't mind you taking their photograph, so if you were looking for a good composition just take your time and work it out in your head.

Thanks John - I think that is the case and need to spend a bit more time thinking about the composition. I just could not come up with another angle or way to approach it during the time.

[TheBigE]

Exactly my first thoughts. The trouble with going for odd angles is that you have to make them appear deliberate and not accidental.

Good shots and a nice idea although is the colour just a fraction on the yellow side?

Thanks Geoff - I agree, but in trying to improve the composition I just keep going back to the Camera Tilt Technique....many felt deliberate. Many a touch on the yellow side, I think a few more adjustments in white balance and perhaps a few other areas may help that...

[TheBigE]

Lots of challenges here, and I think you handled them best in the second image. There is so much complexity in the surroundings that it can overwhelm your subject(s) and I think this is managed best in the second, which also shows good interaction. The empty chair was yours? Also, I agree, these are yellowish - perhaps addressed by cooling down the color temp a tad?

Thank Mark - Actually the empty chair was not mine but I thought added to the composition. My goal was to focus in on the group and minimize the external distractions but not loose the fact we were in a library.

There is a few more touch in PP that could be done as well. Thanks for the feedback.

[TheBigE]

Erik - what strikes me about all the images, other than perhaps the last one seem to be snapshots rather than "photographs".

Photographs grab the viewers attention and will have an impact on the viewer, while a snapshot records an event. What I mean by that that they are too busy looking all over the image and my eyes can't quite figure out what to focus on and grabs my attention. I assume that you are trying for a photograph, rather than a snapshot.

I feel you have included too much material; get closer and simplify your composition. To quote the late, great photographer Robert Capa, "if your picture isn't good enough, you're not close enough".



A closer crop will give you a stronger composition. Also, I've noticed that you like using Dutch tilting in a lot of your work. Yes, there are times to use this technique, but it must look deliberate and you need to have a compositional reason for doing so.

Manfreid - Thanks again for the feedback. I agree, I find my self going to the Dutch Tilt more and more when I cannot see in my wind where to go...it become my default move so to speak. I really noticed it in the last set of photos that I took and the foundation for my post.

I am trying to get past the snapshot and into the photographs....sometimes I do and sometimes I do not...all part of the journey.

Thanks for the idea of a closer crop and focus on one individual. It is true now that I look back over the photos that most were focused on the group.

[TheBigE]

My take is very different, Manfred. While I think none of these images would ever win any awards, these images have an impact on me and I my eyes have no hesitation whatsoever immediately knowing what to focus on. I'm not mentioning this to disagree with you; instead I'm mentioning this so Erik understands that there are opposing points of view.

Robert Capa's quote that you mentioned applies to photos that aren't good enough. It doesn't apply to these photos in my mind because, indeed, they are good enough because they are close enough. As an example, your close crop leaves out important information:

• How many people are playing with this person?
• What are the approximate age, sex and whatever of the people playing with this person?
• Who is this person looking at?
• What else is on the game table?
• The list goes on and on.

That's not to say that your composition wouldn't be good; indeed, it would be good. However, if you want to show the impact of five people playing a board game, it doesn't make any sense to me to display a photo of only one of them.

Mike,

Thanks for the discussion and I truly do appreciate the opposing viewpoints....I know what I saw and see, but sometimes it is very helpful to understand what other sees in the same image. I think my vision was as you have listed - to show the activity of the group, but then Manfred has also shown there is power in the singularity of a game player. Each will appeal to a different group and tell a different story. This is all great feedback and food for thought. Thank you

[TheBigE]

Understood Mike; but Erik specifically asked the following: "I would welcome some compositional tips on these below and any of the ones in my gallery. Basically I need some help thinking outside the box to improve the compositions."

Right now (and I'm thinking about some of his other site postings) Erik is trying to develop his compositional skills and the easiest one to learn is to simplify the image and the easiest way to do this is (often) to get closer to the subject.

Actually my first thought was to grab the ladder seen in the second image, move it over and shoot down on the people playing the game. Repeating patterns of the chairs and the black colour of the table could make an awesome image too.

I wish I would have thought about the ladder and taken a viewpoint looking down....that certainly would have improved the composition a great deal. It is a struggle for me at times to get past the snapshot phase and create a photograph.

I think overall I have learned a great deal again from this exercise...and it has helped me think outside of the box a bit more and how I could have approached this situation. Now time to put it all into practice.

[Manfred M]

Erik - I you haven't done so; I'd suggest you get to a website or a book that discusses composition. While these often get into fairly obscure details, there are a few main ideas that help you get started.

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tu...-of-thirds.htm

Learn these, practice these and you will find over time, your composition gets a lot better. These rules and guidelines often conflict with one another and trying to figure out which ones should take precedence in those cases will get you trying things. At some point in this process (this usually takes a long, long time) you will start seeing the way you want the image to look and will get great looking images without thinking about the "rules of composition". When you really get down to it, there are no rules when it comes to make a great composition, but you have to start somewhere.

Now a few thoughts on Dutch tilting. The concept originally came about to deal with scenes with too many vertical or horizontal lines in them. These can be boring. Diagonals in a photograph can add a real sense of something dynamic, so the principle has been extended to many more situations. So the real issue (and where most shots fail) is trying to find that angle and positioning of real or imaginary lines so that they strengthen your image. Merely tilting your camera isn't going to necessarily give you a stronger image, and in fact (as you have noticed) it can often result in a weaker image.

[Mike Buckley]

I think my vision was as you have listed - to show the activity of the group, but then Manfred has also shown there is power in the singularity of a game player.

If you want to tell a complete story, a combination of shots that feature both groups and individuals would be ideal. There's no need to make just one kind of composition.

[Manfred M]

If you want to tell a complete story, a combination of shots that feature both groups and individuals would be ideal. There's no need to make just one kind of composition.

Excellent suggestion Mike!

Erik - Take a look where Shane is headed with a similar concept. The set on the second page of this thread shows some well composed shots in a specific order telling a story. This is really photojournalism at work.

Farmer's Market (Image Heavy)

Just click on the link and you'll see the series of images.

[TheBigE]

Erik - I you haven't done so; I'd suggest you get to a website or a book that discusses composition. While these often get into fairly obscure details, there are a few main ideas that help you get started.

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tu...-of-thirds.htm

Learn these, practice these and you will find over time, your composition gets a lot better. These rules and guidelines often conflict with one another and trying to figure out which ones should take precedence in those cases will get you trying things. At some point in this process (this usually takes a long, long time) you will start seeing the way you want the image to look and will get great looking images without thinking about the "rules of composition". When you really get down to it, there are no rules when it comes to make a great composition, but you have to start somewhere.

Now a few thoughts on Dutch tilting. The concept originally came about to deal with scenes with too many vertical or horizontal lines in them. These can be boring. Diagonals in a photograph can add a real sense of something dynamic, so the principle has been extended to many more situations. So the real issue (and where most shots fail) is trying to find that angle and positioning of real or imaginary lines so that they strengthen your image. Merely tilting your camera isn't going to necessarily give you a stronger image, and in fact (as you have noticed) it can often result in a weaker image.

Excellent suggestion Mike!

Erik - Take a look where Shane is headed with a similar concept. The set on the second page of this thread shows some well composed shots in a specific order telling a story. This is really photojournalism at work.

Farmer's Market (Image Heavy)

Just click on the link and you'll see the series of images.

Again thanks Manfred. I have reviewed the information here on CiC before and purchased Michael Freeman's book The Photographers's Eye. To be honest, I am struggle through the book and it is not engaging me yet. For me it reads a bit dry.

I have also taken Composition Course on KelbyOne by Rick Sammon. This was very helpful and gave me some good insights onto Composition. Still good to learn, but like many when the rubber hits the road, the implementation of these concepts can fall short.

I guess for me as you have seen, when I do not see it right away I fall back to the Dutch Tilt Method. The background you provided certainly does exemplify where this method is most useful.

I also reviewed Shane's photos and it really shows a story...and for me that is the next step. I am hoping to move past the singularity of a photo and have a set that tell a story....still need to get the basics down on the composition a bit more.

[TheBigE]

If you want to tell a complete story, a combination of shots that feature both groups and individuals would be ideal. There's no need to make just one kind of composition.

Thanks and great idea Mike. Moving past the singularity of a photo into more of a collection. Certainly it is on my mind and hopes for the future.