Canon 7D mk II vs 6D please advise

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Originally Posted by dasmith232

. . . [I] see this discussion as crop vs. full-frame . . .

When using zoom lenses, I really don't have that big of a difference in the kind of pictures I can take . . .

However, when using prime lenses, everything changes. . . the marketing folks at Canon (or Nikon, or anyone) will advertise it as a focal length modifier, but it's not. It's a matter of automatically cropping an image which changes composition. Changing the composition changes everything about an image . . .

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I concur. Good Point.

And the reciprocal is:

if we swap any particular Prime Lens between a Crop and FF camera and we want to keep the same FRAMING, then we will have a different PERSPECTIVE for each Shot (i.e. we have to move the Camera Viewpoint relative to the Subject to keep the same framing).

*

There is much more flexibility with a broad compass zoom lens cache, like the three zooms that you mentioned, to attain the required FRAMING of the Shot, once you have set the Camera Viewpoint, i.e. once you have chosen the PERSPECTIVE of the Shot.

WW

Hi Guys, Newby to the forum here - not to photography though.....

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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrel

Thanks a lot for all of the opinions and advice. I carefully read each reply, and in some cases reread them. I kept in mind that each photographer is different; their style of shooting, their needs, subjects, past experiences, etc, and there are bound to be conflicting advice, opinions, and lessons learned. Knowing this, and having thought carefully about what was said, I then took everything into consideration, wrote out some thoughts (including clarifying WHY I want a 2nd body, as was suggested), and came to the following conclusions:

- I don't really want a 6D as much as I thought. I just want better IQ, period. But the 6D is apparently not the right camera for that, and a FF body in general is mostly conflicting with the subjects and way that I shoot, thus does not make sense at this time.

- The 7D2 is a better choice overall for me, for reasons many have stated, and some reasons that were not stated.

- The reasons why I want a 2nd body (which I listed out on paper in front of me) are valid IMO, and that's what matters. And it is not specifically limited to the Yellowstone trip, FYI

- I will purchase a 2nd 7D2 body, though I may wait a month or so and keep an eye out for sales/refurb etc

- I am trying to offload my two old 7D v1 bodies to make room and $ for the new 7D2 (though if I wanted the 7D2 now I could certainly afford it)

Thanks again for the advice!

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What I often find in these kinds of fora (or is it forums - plural) is that people are seeking approval and justification for their own choices and subsequent purchases. Often this involves purchases just outside of what the individual finds sensible or justifyable. Often this involves comparisons between equipment and their specifications. I guess it could be quite natural to question the differences between the 6D and 7D mk2, but actually we are not playing 'trump' cards here. The 7D mk2 has enjoyed a lot of press, naturally as Canon will want to big its achievements up as much as it can. The same can be said for the 6D 2 years ago as there wasn't another DSLR that could shoot in such low light - still valid by the way today, even at ISO 102K. Yes I own a 6D and e few 5Ds - to me FF rules, simply becuee the lenses make sinse and image quality (lower sturation of pixel cylinders)
The fact is that the 2 cameras are totally different, and as such in my view it makes no sense to compare or chose between the two. Not being interested in sports or fast moving things, the 7D mk2 is just another APS-C camera with a high spec list. I have never understood the need for all those focussing points when I only ever use the centre one - I just cannot get it out of my head to let the camera decide what 'I' want to focus on. What's wrong with focus and recompose? And when on film, we were all ecstatic about the F2 having a 1/2000 shutter, we now worry about the 6D having a top speed of 1/4000 v 1/8000????? when are you going to use it when 99% of DSLR users only use the green square mode or Program at best?

Anyway, I'm beginning to sound pedantic. I think the best choice is the one you feel comfortable with. For me at the time that was having an FF camera that didn't have a pop up flash - ironically one of the reasons the Nikon D600 sometimes outdoes the 6D in reviews. My point; why spend all that money on an FF camera and then baulk at spending out on a decent flash???!!!!

If the 7D mk2 gives you the results you want with the optics (the most important bits) you own, then stick with it.

Enoy Yosemite - get an 85 f/1.8! I played with one and it was incredible!

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Originally Posted by janz64

Hi Guys, Newby to the forum here - not to photography though.....

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Welcome to CiC. Would you mind clicking on the "My Profile" button on the top of this page and adding at least your first name to your profile. We tend to be quite informal here at CiC and go on a first name basis.

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Originally Posted by janz64

What's wrong with focus and recompose?

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I shoot that way most of the time too, but find that I need to switch to a more complex metering mode when shooting action photography. Focus and recompose is a lot tougher with a moving target.

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Originally Posted by janz64

My point; why spend all that money on an FF camera and then baulk at spending out on a decent flash???!!!!

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Mostly because if you have a built-in flash you can use it as a master to trigger an off-camera slave. I don't use my in-camera flash for anything else. While I prefer shooting with radio triggers, I don't necessarily always have them along and the built in flash provides me with the flexibility to go off-camera and I only need to have a single Speedlight along.

Welcome to CiC.

In your first posting you mentioned you’d "been reading discussions on this forum for a while."

In that context:

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Originally Posted by janz64

. . . What I often find in these kinds of fora (or is it forums - plural) is that people are seeking approval and justification for their own choices and subsequent purchases. Often this involves purchases just outside of what the individual finds sensible or justifyable.[sic] Often this involves comparisons between equipment and their specifications. I guess it could be quite natural to question the differences between the 6D and 7D mk2, but actually we are not playing 'trump' cards here. The 7D mk2 has enjoyed a lot of press, naturally as Canon will want to big its achievements up as much as it can. The same can be said for the 6D 2 years ago as there wasn't another DSLR that could shoot in such low light - still valid by the way today, even at ISO 102K. Yes I own a 6D and e few 5Ds - to me FF rules, simply becuee[sic] the lenses make sinse[sic] and image quality (lower sturation[sic] of pixel cylinders)
The fact is that the 2 cameras are totally different, and as such in my view it makes no sense to compare or chose between the two. Not being interested in sports or fast moving things, the 7D mk2 is just another APS-C camera with a high spec list. I have never understood the need for all those focussing[sic] points when I only ever use the centre one - I just cannot get it out of my head to let the camera decide what 'I' want to focus on. What's wrong with focus and recompose? And when on film, we were all ecstatic about the F2 having a 1/2000 shutter, we now worry about the 6D having a top speed of 1/4000 v 1/8000????? when are you going to use it when 99% of DSLR users only use the green square mode or Program at best?

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A disciplined yet anecdotal review of the “Digital Camera and Equipment” & “General Photography Discussions” Forums at CiC will indicate that the majority of the discussion and conversation has been predicted by the Member’s uses and outputs, or if not, the Membership at CiC usually asks the Originating Poster to provide same.

The two direct answers provided in post #23, are indicative of many (most) of the membership in so far as they do use, or are interested in knowing the uses of, many of the technological nuances of the modern DSLR and other Cameras for the application to their own or others' practical execution of The Craft.

Similar review of many threads here will show that the VAST majority of the membership’s commentary at CiC are from folk who have developed; are developing or are sincerely seeking to develop their skill and knowledge base well beyond: “99% of DSLR users only use the green square mode or Program at best”.

WW

Hello janz64,

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for your input. You certainly have some interesting opinions and points of view. I think much of what you mentioned was addressed in my original post at the beginning of the thread, as well as other replies prior to yours. The two replies just prior to this one, in response to your post, also cover some good points.

I purchased a second 7D2 body several months ago, as the previous helpful replies aided in my decision by presenting technical information which I was not aware of at the time of starting this thread.

The 7D2 is a superb camera and all of the features (the high specs that you referred to) that it has are precisely needed for the subjects that I regularly shoot

Thanks again, welcome to cic, and have a great day

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that people are seeking approval and justification for their own choices and subsequent purchases. Often this involves purchases just outside of what the individual finds sensible or justifyable

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99% of DSLR users only use the green square mode or Program at best?

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A tad quick to judge, no? Even a cursory reading of this forum would make it obvious that many folks here are not using the "green square mode or Program at best." (Is there something more extreme yet, as "at best" implies?) In fact, some people who post here teach photography, either routinely or occasionally. I would have to look to see if either of my bodies has a green square mode, as I have never used that or program mode on either. And one of the nice things about this forum is that with very few exceptions, those who post here don't generally question the motives of or disparage people who ask questions. I thought Matt asked a perfectly reasonable question at the outset. He made it clear that the two cameras are very different and that he had thought hard about the pros and cons of each. There is no reason (and no basis) for accusing him of trying to justify a purchase that is outside of what he finds reasonable.

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Not being interested in sports or fast moving things, the 7D mk2 is just another APS-C camera with a high spec list.

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You are not interested in sports or fast-moving things. That doesn't mean other people aren't.

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I have never understood the need for all those focussing points when I only ever use the centre one - I just cannot get it out of my head to let the camera decide what 'I' want to focus on. What's wrong with focus and recompose?

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You don't see that multiple points are useful, but some other people do. I do, although I almost never let the camera select. I use multiple focusing points because sometimes it works better to do so. For example, in shooting candids of people, it helps to select a focus point about 1/3 of the way down in the frame, which is roughly where eyes often go, so that one can shoot quickly without recomposing. Essential? Not at all. A nice feature to have? I find it to be one. I also occasionally use the surrounding-points assist mode, where the camera uses the selected point if possible but falls back on a selected adjacent point if necessary. Very helpful when things are moving, and some of us shoot things that are moving.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I am just suggesting that your comments would have more impact here if you were a little more appreciative of others' perspectives.

I appreciate the comments everyone has made, including especially those that are "backing me up."

:D Can't help myself.....

http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/teq30.gif

This forum is not really a place for sweeping assertions! Too much knowledge resides here for that.

Interesting to have a pebble thrown in the pond re multiple focus points. Personally I find the ability to choose a focus point almost anywhere on the screen is very helpful with considered composition. It can be much faster than the focus and recompose technique too when one is expecting something to come into a given point of a carefully pre-framed shot. For example, I use this a lot in street photography. It can also be useful for candid / discreet pictures where the camera is not apparently pointing directly at the subject, but that subject is still in focus on an outer focus point.

We do have a 6D among other things and one of the limitations of it for me at least is relatively few focus points. It feels like a stripped back camera in some respects, but works extremely well for what we use it for.

Question: do you shoot landscape? If yes then the view angle of a FF like the 6D is significantly larger. The widest ultra-wide for a APS-C are EF-S 10-22mm f3.5 or EF-S 10-18mm f4.5 - if you want a wider angle of view or faster lens then you need a full frame body with a 16-35 f2.8, 14mm or 11-24mm.

Do you really shoot in the dark where you need ISO levels above 12800? The 6D or 5D's have less noise levels than a APS-C but the noise does not go away with a full frame. If you already have a 7DMKII then you have a perfect body for sport, fast action and tele (1.6 crop factor). If you go to yellowstone than I assume you're interested to landscape pictures too - in that case a FF body give you more variety.

This s*** doesn't make any sense to me , in a couple days I'm going to have about $18,000 in my bank account and I have almost as much on my line of credit, but unless the guy is a professional there is no need for a second body let alone the same exact camera. That is just plain bat**** crazy. The 7d in either version is a really tough camera. Digital Rev on YouTube did a destruction test on it they lit it on fire they threw it down concrete steps they froze the camera with water inside of the sensor they shot it with a pellet gun and after all that it still worked. If your that clumsy with your camera that you somehow smash it , you have bigger problems to worry about then needing a second backup.

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Originally Posted by eksine

This s*** doesn't make any sense to me , in a couple days I'm going to have about $18,000 in my bank account and I have almost as much on my line of credit, but unless the guy is a professional there is no need for a second body let alone the same exact camera. That is just plain bat**** crazy. The 7d in either version is a really tough camera. Digital Rev on YouTube did a destruction test on it they lit it on fire they threw it down concrete steps they froze the camera with water inside of the sensor they shot it with a pellet gun and after all that it still worked. If your that clumsy with your camera that you somehow smash it , you have bigger problems to worry about then needing a second backup.

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If one took the time and effort to read the third para. of the opening post, one would realize that there are two initial reasons for the use of a second body: firstly to allow ease of operation with a pair of lenses (500 and 70 to 200) and secondly for System redundancy, should one body fail, hen the OP details other considerations.

Camera Failure is NOT necessarily due to User Mistreatment.

Emotive attributions toward another Forum Member such as "bat**** crazy" and red herring assumptions of "'clumsy", really don't have any place in a serious adult conversation.

Furthermore, tagging the whole conversation as "s***" is simply downright rude and is an insult to all who have contributed to it.

WW

William I did read his post maybe not every word of it but the gist of what he was asking was basically he's going on vacation to Yellowstone which is for personal reasons because he didn't state that it was for business reason. Second off spending $1,400 just to as you said "ease of operation with a pair of lenses " is just stupid. He even admitted that his major motivation was emotional and was about the Yellowstone trip mostly. The rest of the reasons that he gave we're just two ease his mind by trying to infuse logic into the purchase decision. As I said this was for a personal reason for him and not a professional one so it doesn't make sense to spend $1,400 on a backup when he's taking pictures of trees or a bear or whatever else is in Yellowstone I've never been there so I'm not sure what's there. Anyways since its for personal reason if his camera failed there's not a whole lot to lose . It's not like he's shooting this for a client and they're paying him $10,000 for it. Obviously your definition of an adult conversation is completely different from mine. Now had he said I'm on assignment I'm being paid for the shoot and I need to make sure that I get the photos I need for this magazine then that's a whole different kind of question. Maybe it was a bit rude but if you were an "adult" as you claim to be then you would have acknowledged some of the absurdness in the question itself. Also the way that you speak or at least way that you write seems like you're trying too hard to be I don't know politically correct or overly professional. Lighten up William

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Originally Posted by eksine

This s*** doesn't make any sense to me , in a couple days I'm going to have about $18,000 in my bank account and I have almost as much on my line of credit, but unless the guy is a professional there is no need for a second body let alone the same exact camera. That is just plain bat**** crazy. The 7d in either version is a really tough camera. Digital Rev on YouTube did a destruction test on it they lit it on fire they threw it down concrete steps they froze the camera with water inside of the sensor they shot it with a pellet gun and after all that it still worked. If your that clumsy with your camera that you somehow smash it , you have bigger problems to worry about then needing a second backup.

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Thanks for sharing your opinions on the topic. I definitely can see your point of view, although I don't agree at all with any of your "logic" or assumptions (which is my opinion). Clearly you have a completely different way of looking at photography (which you're entitled to), and cannot see that one's status as a "professional" or "amateur" has nothing to do with how important it is to that person to successfully capture an image. Not everyone shares your pragmatic approach to this art. And although you are entitled to freedom of speech, that doesn't mean you need to be obnoxious and rude (though it's clear that is how you prefer to be). A lot of people like to hop into this community to vent their condescending views right off the bat. It never ends well for them.

I forgot to add that much of what you said is unsound, and makes it abundantly clear that you have little, if any, knowledge or experience with wildlife photography (I won't waste my time elaborating). But again, you are entitled to freedom of speech, even if it makes you look silly. Also, I don't see what the amount of money in your bank account has to do with my question. Finally, my decision has already been made and I've taken action long ago.

p.s. - if you're a troll, you got me ;)

What do you mean it never ends well with them, you hired some kind of hit man to come after me? I didn't need to be as rude as I was, I then i also wouldn't expect you to agree with me because I'm not one of those on here who's going to stroke your ego about a purchase decision you tried to rationalize based on mostly what you felt. I realized afterwards that this forum is probably based on the University Cambridge, you guys probably have a ton of disposable income so yeah you're right I wouldn't understand it coming from your viewpoint just like you would not understand the position that I'm coming from. The 7D mark 2 is not super expensive even if you have a low income. From my point of view it makes a whole lot more sense if your secondary camera was less expensive.

I'll try to contribute to this thread in the more positive way. The original 5d mark 1 was actually a top choice for landscape / nature photography. The 6d is basically just a newer version of the 5d so based off that I don't see how you didn't choose the 6d. I didn't really read past the Yellowstone part but do you really need the better autofocus, are you photographing a lot of moving objects because of your not the autofocus shouldn't be that important to you for photographing Yellowstone 6d should take better pictures and not for the bokeh. You already had some reservations about missing the image quality by not getting the 6d that sounds like regret why would you make a decision that you could possibly regret later? At least if you got the 6d you could see what you're missing and then replace it later it's not like you'd be losing that much money. Also fYI on slickdeals.net there's a deal for the 7d mark 2 refurbished by Cameta with the Canon 90 day warranty and the rest of the one year warranty crew Cameta, the deal was for $999

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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrel

I forgot to add that much of what you said is unsound, and makes it abundantly clear that you have little, if any, knowledge or experience with wildlife photography (I won't waste my time elaborating). But again, you are entitled to freedom of speech, even if it makes you look silly. Also, I don't see what the amount of money in your bank account has to do with my question. Finally, my decision has already been made and I've taken action long ago.

p.s. - if you're a troll, you got me ;)

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I did mostly people Photography specifically weddings and occasionally amateur models I don't see how that would disqualify me from wildlife photography. You're still using a camera and your theories and aesthetic decisions when you press that shutter button are not that much different from when I push the shutter button. I mean that's like saying I'm not a man because I drink vodka and not whiskey. And that's kind of what I was trying to say about your original question it was kind of child is just like saying that my opinions don't count just because I don't do wildlife / nature photography. I still understand the concepts and artistic vision that goes through your mind when you take those pictures

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Originally Posted by FlyingSquirrel

. . . And although you are entitled to freedom of speech, that doesn't mean you need to be obnoxious and rude. . .

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There is no entitlement to freedom of speech in this community, because upon membership there agreement to the User's Terms & Conditions and the Forums' Code of Conduct.

WW

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Originally Posted by eksine

I realized afterwards that this forum is probably based on the University Cambridge, you guys probably have a ton of disposable income so yeah you're right I wouldn't understand it coming from your viewpoint just like you would not understand the position that I'm coming from.

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Hi Eksine

I'm afraid your assumtion here is way off the mark. CiC was started by a postgraduate student at Cambridge but it has come a long way since then and the Forum is populated by a wide range of people from all over the world with a wide range of occupations and incomes. The common theme here, unlike some other forums, is that we value politeness. Occasionally things get heated but that is usually stamped out by the mods.

Dave

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Originally Posted by dje

Occasionally things get heated but that is usually stamped out by the mods.

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They do. It is. And it's been done.

There are some forums on the web where, I believe, this sort of tone and language is common place. I don't think we're being 'superior' to say that common decency and good manners is a fundamental part of this forum and that those who misinterpret that as being too 'politically correct' are not suited to being part of CiC.