Some macro angles...testing...testing...for C&C

[IzzieK]

Hi Izzie, easy or what I think Grahame has explained things as I would have, in fact probably better, his test that he suggests is a great way for finding your set-ups capability when you get this part of the jigsaw mastered then as others mentioned, get the lighting sorted!

Exactly my thoughts!!! So I just found the brightest place downstairs without worrying about studio lights. Bugs are always in the wild anyway, so light direction will come later (and if I think of it in the first place instead of composition first...) By the time I keep twisting and turning to get the best view and the best light and the best compostion, my subject would have flown away -- and then I will kick myself for my duff shot...

Good on you for having a go and don't be put off if you are not happy with first attempts, there are plenty on here who will help if we can I think your biggest drawback is you are using one of those Nikon things go buy a real camera

Joking aside, keep at it pal

Now! I found a sensible bug shooter with the wrong camera...Thanks.

[marlunn]

Izzie,

practice, practice, practice, interpret result, learn, apply - practice practice practice.

it also depends on what style of image you want - I shoot virtually all hand held so I accept limitations imposed on DoF by light and iso imposed by that style - no way I will get shots like Davids as I also dont ( currently ) use flash so I have to chose the focus point and not sweat the oof areas.

Main thing with this as any other - have fun, explore capabilities and options and do what satisfies you

[IzzieK]

Wanna bet?

Seriously, I think your priorities are effective.

YES! I didn't say it will come easy as clicking my fingers. I will have to work at it first till I get it. Then you can bet all you like.

[IzzieK]

I agree with figuring out what is achievable, I just wouldn't think she'd want to go back to the D300 with the D810 available.

Yes, I will....watch me. Thanks Alan...for your confidence in me...there are some things achieveable easily with the D810 but there are some good things that a crop camera is very good at too. Mind you, I love both of these camera, I have no problem with my wrist as I did with the D800e. That camera did not like me, so I sold it.

Thank you for your comment...I will get there...I don't give up easily...

[IzzieK]

Thank you John...I always enjoy all your shots...this is one good example of the Gi (and the) ant bug version.

Now then David none of this Canikon War stuff else I will suggest she gets a Panasonic and be done with the 'big boys'



This was just a bridge Nikon imagine what a DSLR could do

[IzzieK]

Hi Izzie - great thread, thanks for starting it. Having sussed your gear's capabilities, Binnur's advice is spot on.

Dear Kaye and Binnur...thank you for ganging up on me.. Yes..I got the idea about lighting and stuffs later on. My problem there in my images is actually PP, I must admit...because I was trying to find that if I processed my future bug images that way, I will find hairy stuffs really hairy. I guess it does not work that way...wrong thought...

[IzzieK]

Thanks Mark...if my husband have time for his hobby each after for two hours, then I can just imagine what I can do with my camera for two hours!! Good advice...I will take that...thank you for your comment and advice. 'Appreciate it.

Izzie,

practice, practice, practice, interpret result, learn, apply - practice practice practice.

it also depends on what style of image you want - I shoot virtually all hand held so I accept limitations imposed on DoF by light and iso imposed by that style - no way I will get shots like Davids as I also dont ( currently ) use flash so I have to chose the focus point and not sweat the oof areas.

Main thing with this as any other - have fun, explore capabilities and options and do what satisfies you

[Saorsa]

I agree with figuring out what is achievable, I just wouldn't think she'd want to go back to the D300 with the D810 available.

In macro work you are after DOF and will take any advantage to get it. The smaller sensor is actually an advantage here in terms of DOF.

[jcuknz]

I am slightly puzzled by the discussion between camera models since with the 36MP of the 810 and is it the 12Mp of the 300 ....I have written my adjacent post since I checked at Dpreview .... If you consider the whole picture of camera and PP I cannot see any advantage of using the lesser camera despite the 1.5 crop factor which can make getting tight framing easier and with 36Mp there are pixels to 'burn' .... ???? Certainly for CiC at 1200pixels across etc.

Another angle of how to approach the subject ... I assume and hope the tubes are Auto-tubes and while not as effective in getting closer when used with the longer focal length lens the narrower angle of view of the longer lens overcomes this possible problem. So assuming Issie has more than just the 50mm ? The tubes should work with any lens that works with the camera body.

There appears to me to be a basic mis-understanding about getting tightly framed shots .. caused perhaps by them being called close-ups or macro ... and this is that you have to get in close ... you do not and a longer lens is often just as good a way and in many cases preferable .... I have had 430 and now 280 that I am so used to working this way
The spider was at 280mm and has plenty/enough depth of field to show the little beastie reasonably well if not a magnificent shot ... something which has yet to come to me

[george013]

In macro work you are after DOF and will take any advantage to get it. The smaller sensor is actually an advantage here in terms of DOF.

I don't understand that. We're talking about 2 camera's with the same lens, shooting at the same distance, the shortest. Using the dof-calculator , f8 and 1 meter distance, it gives me a dof of 0.12cm for the D300 and 0.18 for the D800. If I want to print them both so that the subject has the same dimensions, then I'll have to enlarge the D800 image 1.5 times more than the D300. Giving me the same result. I think.
George

[Saorsa]

I don't understand that. We're talking about 2 camera's with the same lens, shooting at the same distance, the shortest. Using the dof-calculator , f8 and 1 meter distance, it gives me a dof of 0.12cm for the D300 and 0.18 for the D800. If I want to print them both so that the subject has the same dimensions, then I'll have to enlarge the D800 image 1.5 times more than the D300. Giving me the same result. I think.
George

There is a sensor size tutorial here at CIC which covers some of the issue.

Take a look at Izzies first shell picture. That's just about 1:1 magnification assuming it's the full image because her D800 has a 36mm wide sensor. Her D300 has a 24mm wide sensor. If she wanted a picture of the whole shell, she would have to move back a bit and the image projected on to the sensor would no longer be of equal magnification. It would be 1.5:1.

The difference in working distance means that there is greater DOF, just as a landscape can appear to be 'in acceptable focus' for quite a long distance compared to a portrait taken at the same aperture.

[george013]

There is a sensor size tutorial here at CIC which covers some of the issue.

Take a look at Izzies first shell picture. That's just about 1:1 magnification assuming it's the full image because her D800 has a 36mm wide sensor. Her D300 has a 24mm wide sensor. If she wanted a picture of the whole shell, she would have to move back a bit and the image projected on to the sensor would no longer be of equal magnification. It would be 1.5:1.

The difference in working distance means that there is greater DOF, just as a landscape can appear to be 'in acceptable focus' for quite a long distance compared to a portrait taken at the same aperture.

It's about shooting with the same lens at the shortest distance. So the distance is the same, not he picture.

George

[JBW]

You can try for bugs anytime you want to. Just remember bugs rarely stay still. I know nothing about your gear so allow me one silly season question? Can you get in close and take a steady quick shot? If not there may be some problems ahead.

[DanK]

If are are trying to get maximum magnification from your rig, sensor size will have no bearing on DOF because minimum working distance is independent of the sensor.

The main difference between sensors for macro work, in my opinion, is just pixel density. Given that the image size at maximum magnification is fixed, the greater the pixel density, the more pixels on the subject. For a Canon shooter like me, that makes a crop sensor camera preferable for bugs, and in fact, I just replaced my old 50D with a 7D1 (they are very cheap now) for that purpose. However, Nikons are a different story. If I am not mistaken, the pixel density of the D810 is actually a bit greater than that of the D300. If that is true (Nikonistas can weigh in as to whether it is), then there is no advantage to using the D300 in terms of image quality. A cropped image from the 810 will be slightly superior. However, there may be other considerations, such as weight.

Re lighting: this shouldn't be put off. It is extremely hard to avoid motion blur at macro distances, and the limited light in macro work with ambient lighting often means using shutter speeds that are too slow. Izzie, my suggestion is that you put off figuring out what you want for NICE lighting but that you just use a flash for now, to give you enough light and let you freeze motion. A reasonable setting for macros with a hot-shoe flash could be something like 1/125, ISO up to 400, f/13.

Macro is technically the most demanding photography I have tried. It takes a great deal of practice. I think Grahame's suggestion about how to start is right on the money.

Keep at it! It's worth the effort.

[Saorsa]

It's about shooting with the same lens at the shortest distance. So the distance is the same, not he picture.

George

From that perspective then yes. You are trying to maximize magnification by closest focus at which point your control of DOF is limited to aperture.

I think a lot of the real challenge in field Macro/closeup work is developing an instinctive feel for the working distance of your lenses so that you can pretty quickly get into the position that you need to get the image you want.

But, to me, Macro/Close-up all about the picture. I can quite often get very close to a subject with patience. But, sometimes I see a picture I want.

I am quite capable of this


But prefer things like this


or this

[george013]

If are are trying to get maximum magnification from your rig, sensor size will have no bearing on DOF because minimum working distance is independent of the sensor.

The main difference between sensors for macro work, in my opinion, is just pixel density. Given that the image size at maximum magnification is fixed, the greater the pixel density, the more pixels on the subject. For a Canon shooter like me, that makes a crop sensor camera preferable for bugs, and in fact, I just replaced my old 50D with a 7D1 (they are very cheap now) for that purpose. However, Nikons are a different story. If I am not mistaken, the pixel density of the D810 is actually a bit greater than that of the D300. If that is true (Nikonistas can weigh in as to whether it is), then there is no advantage to using the D300 in terms of image quality. A cropped image from the 810 will be slightly superior. However, there may be other considerations, such as weight.

.

The D300s is a 12Mp camera, the D800 a 36Mp. A cropped D800 will give a 16Mp image. Or the pixelsize of a D300s is 0.0055mm and of the D800 0.0049mm.

George

[Saorsa]

Lighting is always an issue. There are a lot of specialized lights for macro some of which work best in pretty restricted ways. I've found that putting my flash on a cord so that I can maneuver the flash indpendent of the camera is really good for shooting in the field.



That's from a discussion of using flash for closeups.

[DanK]

Brian,

I agree that diffused flash moved away from the hot shoe is the way to go, but for Izzie's initial purposes, I think it is an unnecessary complication. What she needs to do is practice focusing at macro distances. For that, even harsh light from a shoe mounted flash is just fine. I'll post below one I just took with direct flash and no diffuser, 1/125, f/13, using Grahame's suggestion of focusing the lens at its minimum distance and then moving the camera to achieve focus (which is how I do most of my handheld macro). I'm just suggesting that she keep it simple for now. If she finds that she really wants to do macro once she has the basics, then it would be time to get rid of direct flash.

Dan

[IzzieK]

You can try for bugs anytime you want to. Just remember bugs rarely stay still. I know nothing about your gear so allow me one silly season question? Can you get in close and take a steady quick shot? If not there may be some problems ahead.

Brian, This morning, I took a shot of a fly that doesn't move because I swat it first before I worked my camera on it. It is here.

[IzzieK]

I think next time I will work on my flash...thank you for reminding me I have other options...but that will be for next time when I get used shooting without killing my objects first.. I will have to take note of what is discussed here because I am just new at this macro thingie.

If are are trying to get maximum magnification from your rig, sensor size will have no bearing on DOF because minimum working distance is independent of the sensor.

The main difference between sensors for macro work, in my opinion, is just pixel density. Given that the image size at maximum magnification is fixed, the greater the pixel density, the more pixels on the subject. For a Canon shooter like me, that makes a crop sensor camera preferable for bugs, and in fact, I just replaced my old 50D with a 7D1 (they are very cheap now) for that purpose. However, Nikons are a different story. If I am not mistaken, the pixel density of the D810 is actually a bit greater than that of the D300. If that is true (Nikonistas can weigh in as to whether it is), then there is no advantage to using the D300 in terms of image quality. A cropped image from the 810 will be slightly superior. However, there may be other considerations, such as weight.

Re lighting: this shouldn't be put off. It is extremely hard to avoid motion blur at macro distances, and the limited light in macro work with ambient lighting often means using shutter speeds that are too slow. Izzie, my suggestion is that you put off figuring out what you want for NICE lighting but that you just use a flash for now, to give you enough light and let you freeze motion. A reasonable setting for macros with a hot-shoe flash could be something like 1/125, ISO up to 400, f/13.

Macro is technically the most demanding photography I have tried. It takes a great deal of practice. I think Grahame's suggestion about how to start is right on the money.

Keep at it! It's worth the effort.