Even the "pros" can get it wrong

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Originally Posted by Loose Canon

The vast majority of so-called critiques I am seeing on this Forum now are in line with:

“Great capture, I like #1 best”. Except for if the Timers here offer up I’m not seeing much good critique that teeth could be sunk into. And that concerns me.
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Offer not only what we think but as importantly why we think it. We should also be receptive and open to any and all critique we receive regardless of whether or not we agree after it is offered and be darned glad those who know took the time to give.

As for the “pros” who blow it? I could cruise Craigslist and give you as many of those as there are really good photographers right here on this site who could blow them out of the water!

:)

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Terry,

I joined this forum a month ago and I already am a much better photographer. I certainly agree with you that "nice" doesn't help much but I gracefully accept it as a well meaning encouragement. I have received excellent constructive criticism along the line of " this is wrong, this is why it is wrong and here is how to fix it". I have to say that Manfred is the best at doing that but he is by no means the only one. I think however that just posting a photo and asking for c & c is not enough. If one asks specific questions, the answers are usually good and it seems to generate more discussion. And that really helps.

Andre

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Originally Posted by Round Tuit

I certainly agree with you that "nice" doesn't help much but I gracefully accept it as a well meaning encouragement. I have received excellent constructive criticism along the line of " this is wrong, this is why it is wrong and here is how to fix it". I have to say that Manfred is the best at doing that but he is by no means the only one. I think however that just posting a photo and asking for c & c is not enough. If one asks specific questions, the answers are usually good and it seems to generate more discussion. And that really helps.

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Hi Andre,

I’m not disagreeing with any of what you have said. I was just making an observation. There are a myriad of possible reasons for the increase in the “nice” comments and I’m certainly not suggesting there is anything wrong with it.

For one thing, the increase in these comments could be due in large part to an increase in participants. More folks may not feel comfortable offering critique, or have enough experience in a particular genre to feel comfortable with it. Add to that an increase of postings and the entire overview changes. And, possibly being cyclic, there could come a time when, as those folks feel more comfortable they will offer more in-depth comments. I would think that to be a natural progression.

But for now I’ll agree with Bobo when he suggests an in-depth discussion of this topic would be better left for another thread.

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Originally Posted by Round Tuit

I joined this forum a month ago and I already am a much better photographer.

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I will say that I think that is awesome Andre. I hope that trend continues for you. I also hope you are suggesting that a contributory factor to your success could be your participation here (and I’m guessing you are).

As I hoped to convey in my earlier post, this site has been invaluable for me and continues to be so.

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Originally Posted by Glenn NK

It's like calling the guy that does passport photos a pro. Although I will admit, their composition is usually OK. ;)

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A good friend of mine paid for passport photos made by a nationwide company that were ultimately rejected by the agency issuing passports. That's perhaps the ultimate rejection in the world of photography.

There is one type of photo I hope to never have made. The photo would be made by a pro (the photographer gets paid for making the photo) but I wouldn't have to pay for it. It's called a mug shot -- and it's not a photo of anything having to do with coffee. :D

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Originally Posted by GrumpyDiver

My wife was in Japan for a few weeks back in April, visiting our daughter that lives there. As a bit of a lark, they went off to a local photo studio for a "kimono" shoot, which included some images, the use of certain kimonos (lots of rules about what can be worn for specific reasons) and of course an album. Needless to say, this was not inexpensive.

My daughter went for an album package, and my wife, who did not want to have any more luggage than necessary asked for high quality images and insisted (knowing me) that these include the RAW files.

Here are two of the images and I rather suspect that had I (or any other member) posted them, the criticism would have been quite harsh. Here are a couple of examples that show poor composition and faulty exposure.

My wife is wear a "proper" kimono and my daughter is wearing a "schoolgirl" half kimono; a formal top with a split skirt that allowed schoolgirls to bicycle to school wearing an outfit like this one.


Image 1:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8826/1...716342ca_h.jpg

The exposure is totally off and the image is badly overexposed. When I trace around the image with Photoshop's eyedropper tool, I get values of (255, 255, 255), i.e. the background has been totally blown out. Fortunately, as I have the RAW data, the image is recoverable and I can get the white values to a maximum of 240, 240, 240, where they should be. Something I argue a lot is that a high key image is fine, but that proper exposure is still a requirement.




Image 2:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5346/1...e35aa1ec_h.jpg




The lamp sticking out of my daughter's head and the top of the fence running through both of their heads are definitely compositional errors. Can this image be fixed; probably yes, but it will take a lot of work to do so.


The point I am trying to make is that even experienced pros can blow it, so we should be tolerant when we critique the work of members whole are just amateurs.

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I must say the photographer was really generous to share the RAW file. I won't do that to my friend even and he did to a client !!!!

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Originally Posted by mrinmoyvk

I must say the photographer was really generous to share the RAW file. I won't do that to my friend even and he did to a client !!!!

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It wasn't so much as share, but rather something my wife and daughter paid for. This is no different than providing high quality jpegs (in this case full size). Many photographers I know will not provide any jpeg that will let you do a large print from them, but again there are no rules per se.

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Originally Posted by Mike Buckley

A good friend of mine paid for passport photos made by a nationwide company that were ultimately rejected by the agency issuing passports. That's perhaps the ultimate rejection in the world of photography.

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Passport (and other ID photos) look so terrible, I can't imagine anyone wanted to take credit for them. Up this way, the passport agency forces the photographic "studio" to identify the work as theirs by stamping this information on the back of the passport photo.

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Originally Posted by Mike Buckley

A good friend of mine paid for passport photos made by a nationwide company that were ultimately rejected by the agency issuing passports. That's perhaps the ultimate rejection in the world of photography.

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As an example the requirements in New Zealand are as follows:-

Online Passport Photo Requirements.
We can only accept photos that meet our technical requirements as listed below.

Technical requirements
File type: Jpg or Jpeg
File size: Greater than 500kb and less than 10MB
Dimensions: Minimum 900 pixels wide x 1200 pixels high -- maximum 4500 pixels wide x 6000 pixels high
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (Width:Height ratio in landscape) Turn the camera so that it is in the portrait position, see the image below.
Figure 1 – Image Size and Aspect Ratio

Image requirements
Full colour
Photo must be less than 6 months old
Head centred with a clear gap around the sides and top of head, including hair
Maximum size of head, including hair, must be 75% of the photo (see image 1 below)
True image must not be altered in any way
In focus, with no red-eye and no reflected light on the face
The background must be plain and light coloured
Strong contrast between image and background
No shadows
Head straight to the camera
Eyes open
Mouth closed
Neutral expression, not smiling or frowning
No hair across your face or eyes as eyes must be clearly visible
No head bands, or head coverings
Eyes must be clearly showing through glasses, with no reflection
No glasses with heavy-rimmed frames
No sunglasses, or glasses with tinted lenses that obscure your eyes

Framing the photo
Refer to Figure 1 for help with correct framing of the subject. Use values for A, B, C and D to correctly position the head. Frame the photo so that:
The subject is centred with the midpoints of the mouth and nose lying on an imaginary vertical centreline.
The length of the head is equal to A
The width of the head is equal to B
The eyes are positioned between points C and D
Ensure there is a clear gap (visible background) around the entire head, including the hair and/or ears.


No wonder Mikes friend company was unsuccessful.

Try and getting a baby with ewes open and mouth closed and a neutral expression to really try your patience

Fortunately, the U.S. passport photo requirements aren't so restricting. It's hard to imagine why my friend's photo was rejected.

In color
Printed on matte or glossy photo quality paper
2 x 2 inches (51 x 51 mm) in size
Sized such that the head is between 1 inch and 1 3/8 inches (between 25 and 35 mm) from the bottom of the chin to the top of the head. View the Photo Composition Template for more size requirement details.
Taken within the last 6 months to reflect your current appearance
Taken in front of a plain white or off-white background
Taken in full-face view directly facing the camera
Taken with a neutral facial expression (preferred) or a natural smile, and with both eyes open
Taken in clothing that you normally wear on a daily basis:
Uniforms, clothing that looks like a uniform, and camouflage attire should not be worn in photos except in the case of religious attire that is worn daily.
You may only wear a hat or head covering if you wear it daily for religious purposes. Your full face must be visible and your head covering cannot obscure your hairline or cast shadows on your face.
Headphones, wireless hands-free devices or similar items are not acceptable in your photo.
If you normally wear prescription glasses, a hearing device or similar articles, they may be worn for your photo. Glare on glasses is not acceptable in your photo.
Dark glasses or non-prescription glasses with tinted lenses are not acceptable unless you need them for medical reasons (a medical certificate may be required).

Fortunately for us, the passport office is in town and was a 5 minute drive from where i used to work. I would just take my application and photos in and these would be screened for acceptability right on the spot.

I asked the person screening the application what the most common cause for rejections was; not meeting the specs (ours are much like the NZ ones that Ken has listed) was the reason given. Size errors (head positioning / head too large or too small), poor lighting / exposure (including shadows behind the subject), a mouth that was not neutral enough (a smile and showing teeth is not acceptable), etc.

I suspect that the specs were written around image recognition software. There was an article in the news within the last year or so where the Passport Office was able to spot a wanted criminal who was applying for a false passport. He was identified and captured this way.

I hate to be morbid but here goes:

When you die and appear on a marble slab in a faraway country you'll not be smiling, wearing your spectacles, showing teeth, nor wearing your headscarf. Hence the passport office wants the the best shot of you dead whilst alive it can get.

Morbid, but factual.

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Originally Posted by SteveF

I hate to be morbid but here goes:

When you die and appear on a marble slab in a faraway country you'll not be smiling, wearing your spectacles, showing teeth, nor wearing your headscarf. Hence the passport office wants the the best shot of you dead whilst alive it can get.

Morbid, but factual.

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In that case, shouldn't passport photos be taken with the eyes in a gently closed position? :D

Thanks for the laughs, Steve...

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Originally Posted by SteveF

I hate to be morbid but here goes:

When you die and appear on a marble slab in a faraway country you'll not be smiling, wearing your spectacles, showing teeth, nor wearing your headscarf. Hence the passport office wants the the best shot of you dead whilst alive it can get.

Morbid, but factual.

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