Burning CD or DVD

[Digital]

It is my understanding that in this digital age the only sure method to secure for archival purposes your photos is to have them printed. In other words, burning your photos to a CD or DVD will not preserve them for archival purposes. I guess this includes storing these same photos to an external hard drive.
Any comments on this subject will be greatly appreciated.
BTW, maybe is to early to tell if this is the case.




Bruce

[Black Pearl]

Give me your printed image and a match - won't be secure for long

Multiple backups kept in multiple offsite secure locations on high quality drives running a solid RAID configuration that are well maintained would be your best bet but I can't image that would be cheap.

[Manfred M]

It is my understanding that in this digital age the only sure method to secure for archival purposes your photos is to have them printed. In other words, burning your photos to a CD or DVD will not preserve them for archival purposes. I guess this includes storing these same photos to an external hard drive.
Any comments on this subject will be greatly appreciated.
BTW, maybe is to early to tell if this is the case.




Bruce

In general neither CDs nor DVDs or BlurRay discs that you burn yourself can be considered archival. These rely on a photochemical reaction to write data and the process does break down over time. I've had disks go bad in as little as 12 months, others I have are pushing 10 years old.

The only exception might be the M-disk product. http://www.mdisc.com/what-is-mdisc/ I have no personal experience with it, but I've heard good things about it.

My personal approach is multiple RAID arrays; so far so good.

[Kris V]

The pictures I absolutely don't want to loose are on an 2 external HDs, and on 3 sets of DVDs . I give each of my daughters a set of those every time the DVDs are filled up, and I keep one for myself as well.
Reduntant? Maybe, but some pictures are just too precious to loose. Insurance can not replace memories.

[Manfred M]

on 3 sets of DVDs .

As per my comments in thread #3; CDs, DVDs and BluRay disks that your burn yourself are not archival and can fail. The price you paid for the disk is not an indicator as to how quickly the disk might deteriorate (and it will). Poor storage conditions will accelerate this process.

[Digital]

Thank you Robin, Manfred, and Kris for your comments.

Manfred, thanks for the link. I watched the attached video, and it appears that the M-disk is about as archival as I would want.
Thanks again for the information. As soon as I find some extra funds, I plan to purchase a pack of these disks.

Bruce

[Manfred M]

Thank you Robin, Manfred, and Kris for your comments.

Manfred, thanks for the link. I watched the attached video, and it appears that the M-disk is about as archival as I would want.
Thanks again for the information. As soon as I find some extra funds, I plan to purchase a pack of these disks.

Bruce

CAreful there Bruce; M-disk requires a special burner as well. I don't think they cost any more than a normal one, but it is another expense.

[Digital]

CAreful there Bruce; M-disk requires a special burner as well. I don't think they cost any more than a normal one, but it is another expense.

Manfred, I checked with Dell computer, and I was told my computer will accept the M-disk; however I am not taking Dell's word completely at face value. I have e-mailed the M-disk company, and am awaiting a response. Thanks for the heads up.

Bruce

[Digital]

Manfred, I spoke to Dell's tech. dept. again. My CD/DVD burner, according to them, will accept the M-disk as long as I do not exceed 15GB. Anything higher, and I will have to use a Blu-Ray burner.
Still awaiting word from M-disk.
I kind of got sidetracked (my responsibility); in that is a digital photo print (if stored properly) considered archival?

[Manfred M]

is a digital photo print (if stored properly) considered archival?

In theory, if you print on archival grade paper (acid free) and use archival (pigment) inks and store them in a dark, humidity controlled environment then colour images are rated for 100 years and B&W for 200 years (by the ink / paper manufacturers)

[Digital]

In theory, if you print on archival grade paper (acid free) and use archival (pigment) inks and store them in a dark, humidity controlled environment then colour images are rated for 100 years and B&W for 200 years (by the ink / paper manufacturers)

Thanks Manfred for the information.

Bruce

[William W]

Manfred - thanks very much for the M-Disc info.

On the face of it, the M-Disc appear to me as a top-drawer medium, for the supply of files to Clients.

ta.

[IzzieK]

What about those 100 Gold Archival DVDs...I still have mine which I saw and bought at MicroCenter near us...Then I use archival ink in my printers as I print a lot of my work myself...not too much of straight photography but graphic composites mostly....doesn't these inks and archival DVDs and Blu Rays work too?

[Manfred M]

What about those 100 Gold Archival DVDs...I still have mine which I saw and bought at MicroCenter near us...Then I use archival ink in my printers as I print a lot of my work myself...not too much of straight photography but graphic composites mostly....doesn't these inks and archival DVDs and Blu Rays work too?

Izzie - There has been a lot written about the "gold" disks and unfortunately, they seem to be no more archival than the regular ones. The test results I've seen suggest that the claims outweigh real life performance. The problem with any electronic medium is that it is only as good as having the ability to recover the data down the road (hardware and software). The M-disc is the only read / write medium out there that I personally would trust, but one has to remember that at some point the readers and writers are going to disappear and we could have excellent storage without having the means to recover them.

The problem with prints is that it takes three things to make a physical print archival; non-fading inks; and while dye based inks have gotten better; pigment based inks still outperform them from a longevity standpoint. Unless you are printing on archival paper (acid free) the chemicals in the paper will break down the inks. The third component is storage; stable (and appropriate) temperature, humidity and light conditions. Again the manufacturers will produce specs here; but moderate humidity that does not fluctuate too much, humidity conditions that ensure the paper does not dry out nor have enough humidity that allows moulds to grow, absence of chemicals in the storage environment that could damage the inks and paper and finally and low light levels (especially no ultra-violet light that breaks down the inks; think of the lighting in an art gallery). Generally storage in a dark room works well.

[tao2]

Hi Izzie,

The mantra is usually - never use RW discs for archive - keep the discs in cool ,dry places - heat, humidity,pollution and handling are believed tae reduce life. A commercially produced CD, is expected tae last 50+years (assuming decent production levels, initially). Ah have some very old CDs which show no signs of degradation...yet. Hell, ah have 30 yo cassette tapes (commercial, bootleg and home-made) which still play like new .

DVDs are reputed tae last from 25-300 years and no-one can prove differently, for at least another 100 years

Ah'd take all those accelerated tests with a liberal pinch of salt - more sales talk than substance "yeh, we took a competitor's DVD, left it in the sun for 350 hours - it died. Erm, yes, ours died too... but only after 450 hours !" "So... they both died? Erm, yes"

Best alternative backup for an archival DVD? Another archival DVD...

PS Ah disagree with Manfred, ah don't believe the hardware will disappear whilst so many institutions and folk at large use it. Ye can still buy floppy disk players (hard tae find but gettable)

[IzzieK]

No problem with storage in this place. We have photographs taken and printed on acid free medium back in 1953 about the shipment of the 17 Buckaroo Trainers made here in the US and 10 of them were given to the Saudis and got lost in the process until my husband found them and some parts still in its original box that it was shipped with in the 70's. Photos were taken of each process in secret as the Saudis do not want anyone to photograph anything in their Jeddah facility at the time. I got all those photos stored in plastic containers and stored them in our basement where the temperature are always constant. Took them out about 7 years ago to make a video out of the process to get more funding for my husband's airplane club's museum and all of them are still intact. The photographers in Texas stored the putting together of the Buckaroo photographs in acid-free albums and given to Cotton Conder who went to Saudi Arabia in 1953 as their representative. The photographs came to our hands in bits and pieces over the 1980's.

I am interested in this topic as I had bought some archival Gold 100's DVDs to scan all those images including some authoritative papers from the late Saudi King giving authorization for the shipment of the airplanes and its remaining parts back here to the US. There are also photos of the coming in of the shipment from SA and the trip to Tennessee, the local interview and the unpacking and putting together the first airplane...lots of other related photographs that came to my hands to do wonders (?) with. All of these were properly stored after.

Now I am wondering if I should change my disk to M-disk as per your suggestion on another response?

[Brev00]

I burn dvd's and keep all my images saved on a few external hard drives but it all seems rather pointless. Who is going to need my images in 25 years? What images after 25 years are going to be that important to me? It is nice to have the multiple saved copies now in case my computer goes down. Ultimately, if everything were lost, that would just be another reason to go out and shoot some more. Everything is temporary, it seems to me. Exercise caution; be safe; but no need to lose years off your life through worry.

[Manfred M]

Who is going to need my images in 25 years? What images after 25 years are going to be that important to me?

That's what I said once too, and now that my daughter is getting married; people have asked us to dig out some of her baby pictures. 100 years seems like a long time; 25 year, perhaps not so much.

[Manfred M]

A commercially produced CD, is expected tae last 50+years (assuming decent production levels, initially). Ah have some very old CDs which show no signs of degradation...yet. Hell, ah have 30 yo cassette tapes (commercial, bootleg and home-made) which still play like new.

DVDs are reputed tae last from 25-300 years and no-one can prove differently, for at least another 100 years

Commercially produced CDs are pressed, with small pits. Aluminum is evapourated onto the surface in a vacuum and the whole surface is sealed in an oxygen free environment. As long as the surface and edge integrity of the CD (same goes for DVD and Blu-Ray, as the production methods are quite similar) remain, the disk will remain playable. Expose the aluminum to the oxygen in the air; the mirror-like coating will oxidize almost instantly (aluminum is a highly reactive metal; but a hard, stable, but dull aluminum oxide coating protects it).

Home-made CDs (both write once read many or re-writable types) use a laser to interact with photosensitive chemicals to create light and dark areas. As this is a chemical reaction; the disk will start to deteriorate immediately after the write process has been completed. A number of factors, including the compounds used, the manufacturing process and storage (in the dark in a cool place is best) after the disk has been written. The over time, the chemical reactions will make those disks unreadable.

Ah'd take all those accelerated tests with a liberal pinch of salt - more sales talk than substance "yeh, we took a competitor's DVD, left it in the sun for 350 hours - it died. Erm, yes, ours died too... but only after 450 hours !" "So... they both died? Erm, yes"


Best alternative backup for an archival DVD? Another archival DVD...

I have a bit more faith in the accelerated failure tests than you do; but will agree that they are not 100% reliable. I've had to live with the results of these types of tests in a former life (i.e. my job) and have seen these tests succeed and fail. In some instances the correlation with real life was poor and in other cases I've seen the opposite case, where the product lasted longer than the salt spray / UV lamp testing would have suggested.

The main advantage of these tests is not necessarily the absolute numbers, but the relative ones. If the test results suggest that one test subject will last twice as long as the other, that is good to know, even though it only lasted 14.9 years rather than the predicted 15.1 years.

PS Ah disagree with Manfred, ah don't believe the hardware will disappear whilst so many institutions and folk at large use it. Ye can still buy floppy disk players (hard tae find but gettable)

Well yes and no. The availability of these devices might vary (try to find an 8" floppy drive or a LaserDisc video player). The Betamax and VHS devices will only be playable as long as one can find / refurbish one of these devices on the used market, as they have both been out of production for years.

Digitial rot is real; the only question is how long it will take after production has been discontinued, the drivers / software to read them has disappeared. I expect that some devices will have a much longer life than others; especially for those where millions were made.

[jcuknz]

The conceit of mankind amazes me ... that any of the multitude of crap taken by the proliferation of the digital camera should not quietly die with them .... OK there are a few, very few, talented folk whose work might benefit future generations is obviously true but for the masses, which includes myself ... nuff said.

I have been preservation indocrinated by employment and associates and have family material dating from the end of the 1800, and personal from the late 1940's ... BUT

And how wasteful of earth's resources that everything we put on the web is held somewhere .... dreadful.