Critique lighting - architecture pool shot

[spittle]

I'm working on this project for which I'm struggling with the lighting. It's 3D but figure there is a wealth of knowledge here that can maybe provide a photographers perspective.

Composition and time of day is fixed. Although i can move the sun around within the realms of artistic license. It's been hard to balance the lighting and I'm not satisfied with how it is at the moment. It's essentially a backlit cave!

I have full control of lighting intensities and their positioning.

Any ideas?

Here's the initial draft:

[Manfred M]

The two most important parameters that need to change to turn this into an acceptable image have been fixed?

It looks like you are going to have to see if you can fix this in post (and I'm not convinced that this will work). I would probably try seeing what HDRI would produce or a manual blend of multiple exposures. The glare from the light coming in through looks challenging, and the way the light wraps around the building is going to limit your options if that does not work.

Why, may I ask, are the two most important parameters in creating a successful image "fixed"? The first thing that pops into my mind would be to come back when the light is better.

[spittle]

The camera is always signed off before any work begin on my end such modelling details and texturing. They also asked for a sunset shot. I guess I'll learn from this and press harder to change the time of day when the contrast is so high.

Fortunately I don't need to deal with multi exposures as I render to 32bit. This image was already tonemapped quite harshly.

How would you tackle this if you had full scope to shoot as you wish? (Excluding dusk/night as this would be easy)

[Manfred M]

If the sunset shot has been agreed to, then why not wait until the sun is at / just under the horizon and the ambient light levels really drop. I would have thought that shooting during "blue hour" would enhance the blue colour of the pool.

Have you looked at shooting with a grad filter positioned horizontally; I wonder what an inverse grad would do if you ran the hard side up along the edge of the building.

[Rob Ekins]

If the sunset shot has been agreed to, then why not wait until the sun is at / just under the horizon and the ambient light levels really drop. I would have thought that shooting during "blue hour" would enhance the blue colour of the pool.

Have you looked at shooting with a grad filter positioned horizontally; I wonder what an inverse grad would do if you ran the hard side up along the edge of the building.

Manfred,
This image is a 3D render of a space. David is asking for help from "real world" photographers on improving his "virtual" final image.

David,
I shoot real world and design in 3D, will respond shortly.

[Rob Ekins]

David,

What software - Design and render?
Who is the end client - This will determine how the final images light should look. Architects like natural looking light, developers and Real Estate agents usually want wide and bright.
Is the end result to be "Photo realistic" or an artists impression?

Some things I would change if I were making this image...not knowing the answers to above.
I would straighten the verticals - This is critical, get your camera straight, you will not find a good Arch shot of a space like this with sloping walls.
Remove the visual barriers - The plant CL and spa in the foreground impede the view into the space, find another perspective.
Imply the space - There is way to much pool in this image, almost a quarter of the frame, you don't need to show that much of it to link it to the space, I get a feeling the water feature CR is important to you or the client.
Find a perspective where the leading lines don't end at a visual block.

Your textures and post are really really good but there is a conflict with WB within the image.

Would love to see a higher res image.

[Donald]

"real world" photographers

Who are they and how do they differ from, say, me?

his "virtual" final image

What is that and how does it differ from the final images that, say, Manfred or I make?

[Manfred M]

Sorry, I missed reading that this was a rendering. I have done some 3-D work with Lightwave, zBrush and View, but have not not used them in at least 5 or 6 years, so have forgotten a lot).

As I recall, changing the position and colour of light / direction of the lightsource was really easy and simulating a lower and less intense sun was effectively playing around with a few sliders and repositioning where the light source was coming from. Doing sunset or blue hours should be an easy fix.

[Mike Buckley]

If the image is a rendering rather than a photo, it would be a lot less confusing if a moderator would move the thread to an appropriate forum. Perhaps the Community Lounge forum would be ideal. If you do move the thread, feel free to also delete this post so it in itself doesn't cause even more confusion in the new thread.

[Max von MeiselMaus]

I have an idea of what rendering is but no idea how it works, so some of this might make no sense whatsoever. Robbie is likely to be far more useful. But, for what it's worth...

I am having to sort of guess what you don't like about the current set up, and guess that it is the dark interior on the left.

I am wondering if you could bounce your sun off that building on the left, onto the wall on the right and the water and so up again into that cave. You might get some odd, underlit effects (which you have an element of already, with the lit underside of the roof), but it might brighten it up. Your sun at the moment seems to be just behind that foliage on the right. If you moved it higher and further around towards the viewer, would you be able to bounce at those angles? It would also reduce the distracting "glare" in the top right corner. I can't see if there is a tall building on the right. If so, that won't work and all you can do is shoot light down that narrow slit between the buildings or have a midday sun squinting down into that abyss. Raising it might at least reduce the glare, but not sure it will brighten the scene. Worth trying. You might get some more bounce off the water.

If it is not the dark interior, what is it you don't like.

[rpcrowe]

One thing that no one has mentioned is the guy in the white t-shirt sitting with his back to the camera. He certainly doesn't add anything to the image and IMO detracts from it.

I am not sure if I like the funny reflection of the pool on the exercise room window either...

In real estate - architecture images, if there are light fixtures (like in the ceiling of the area between pool and exercise room) I tend to like to see them lit, rather than just black holes...

[Cantab]

If the image is a rendering rather than a photo, it would be a lot less confusing if a moderator would move the thread to an appropriate forum. Perhaps the Community Lounge forum would be ideal. If you do move the thread, feel free to also delete this post so it in itself doesn't cause even more confusion in the new thread.

I have no idea what a 3D virtual rendering is, as distinct from a photo. But it's an interesting if confusing discussion.

[Max von MeiselMaus]

It's effectively a snapshot of a 3D digitally-drawn scene, so kudos to David for producing a render that has confused everyone! Skills.

[spittle]

David,

What software - Design and render?
Who is the end client - This will determine how the final images light should look. Architects like natural looking light, developers and Real Estate agents usually want wide and bright.
Is the end result to be "Photo realistic" or an artists impression?


Some things I would change if I were making this image...not knowing the answers to above.
I would straighten the verticals - This is critical, get your camera straight, you will not find a good Arch shot of a space like this with sloping walls.

Remove the visual barriers - The plant CL and spa in the foreground impede the view into the space, find another perspective.
Imply the space - There is way to much pool in this image, almost a quarter of the frame, you don't need to show that much of it to link it to the space, I get a feeling the water feature CR is important to you or the client.
Find a perspective where the leading lines don't end at a visual block.

Your textures and post are really really good but there is a conflict with WB within the image.

Would love to see a higher res image.

Hi

First of all, thanks very much for all of your replies and sorry for any confusion. I'll try and answer questions.


Software used - 3DS Max/Vray
The client is a developer
We're always aiming for realism but can exaggerate to create the right feel. For this shot I'm finding realism difficult - whilst I can (and have) reduced the sun intensity by several stops - and tonemapped it quite harshly - having bright interior lights on on a sunny day is always going to be hard to get right but other than increasing exposure more to rely on natural interior lighting - I was running out of ideas. I think I've reached the limits of tonemapping sensibility.
Verticals - I'll check this but they look straight to me.
Visual barrier - unfortunately the camera is signed off before I work on the image. Next time, I will be more critical as I agree with what you are suggesting, I won't be able to move the camera for this image. We can move cameras but need to get things approved at the start of the job, and the creating process is very labour intensive so revealing 'more work' isn't viable at this stage. (Client has seen this first draft).

Who are they and how do they differ from, say, me?


What is that and how does it differ from the final images that, say, Manfred or I make?

Real world photographers, as oppose to 3D Artists who may not be photographers.

And as suggested, the attached image is modelled from 3D geometrical polygons, textured, and lit. The software uses mathematical 'models' based on physics to produce an image.

I came here because I see this challenge as one that photographers would have to approach more critically - as it's more difficult. In the 3D realm, the process is similar although I can the sun intensity down, or boost the indirect lighting, or add any number of additional fill lights. I wondered whether any one on here would have suggested the use of additional lights.

Sorry, I missed reading that this was a rendering. I have done some 3-D work with Lightwave, zBrush and View, but have not not used them in at least 5 or 6 years, so have forgotten a lot).

As I recall, changing the position and colour of light / direction of the lightsource was really easy and simulating a lower and less intense sun was effectively playing around with a few sliders and repositioning where the light source was coming from. Doing sunset or blue hours should be an easy fix.

Hi, yes it's very fleixible - just I find that the exposure is one of the most critical things in order to achieve realism. Everytime the sky is out of whack the image suffers. That's why I've tried to moderate the reduction of sun intensity. I was thinking that as per your suggestion of lowering the sun - that this may be the best move forward within the constraints.

I have an idea of what rendering is but no idea how it works, so some of this might make no sense whatsoever. Robbie is likely to be far more useful. But, for what it's worth...

I am having to sort of guess what you don't like about the current set up, and guess that it is the dark interior on the left.

I am wondering if you could bounce your sun off that building on the left, onto the wall on the right and the water and so up again into that cave. You might get some odd, underlit effects (which you have an element of already, with the lit underside of the roof), but it might brighten it up. Your sun at the moment seems to be just behind that foliage on the right. If you moved it higher and further around towards the viewer, would you be able to bounce at those angles? It would also reduce the distracting "glare" in the top right corner. I can't see if there is a tall building on the right. If so, that won't work and all you can do is shoot light down that narrow slit between the buildings or have a midday sun squinting down into that abyss. Raising it might at least reduce the glare, but not sure it will brighten the scene. Worth trying. You might get some more bounce off the water.

If it is not the dark interior, what is it you don't like.

Not being familiar with rendering doesn't detract from you being able to give valuable critique. You're right it's the dark interior that I don't like. I tried a few combinations of light bouncing but tried to stick to the breif. I'll spend an hour or so this morning having a play. A blue sky on the RHS would look better.

One thing that no one has mentioned is the guy in the white t-shirt sitting with his back to the camera. He certainly doesn't add anything to the image and IMO detracts from it.

I am not sure if I like the funny reflection of the pool on the exercise room window either...

In real estate - architecture images, if there are light fixtures (like in the ceiling of the area between pool and exercise room) I tend to like to see them lit, rather than just black holes...

That's Bruno Mars - he makes it into most shots. The client wants people so I intend to comp in more of them. Downlights were all on initially but in combination with the rest of the image, they didn't look good.

It's effectively a snapshot of a 3D digitally-drawn scene, so kudos to David for producing a render that has confused everyone! Skills.

Thanks Max, although I'm striving to make it much better.

[Max von MeiselMaus]

If you do use a blue sky, that would reduce that area of distracting white glare on the rhs and the reflection of it in the water. By contrast, that would visually lighten the rest of the image.

I personally wouldn't lower the sun as you are currently depending on light bounce to light the scene. It is pretty low already and bringing it lower would just skim it along the surface of the water, and I am not convinced that would help.

I can't see how you could add additional lights, apart from the spotlights in the ceiling, without it looking fake and placing cryptic shadows and highlights all over.

Show us what you have a go at. I would be interested to see.

[Manfred M]

Max - when you light a 3-D rendering, you can think of the light sources as being the same ones used in a studio, without some of the restrictions of real lights; direction, colour, spread and drop off are all adjustable. You can put in flags / cutters / gobos to modify the light.

Nicely said, all the restrictions of an outdoor shot are gone and control is absolutely exquisite.

[Rob Ekins]

David,

Can you make a surface an emitter in Vray? If so I might apply one to the ceiling and turn the shadows off for it.

But if your intention is a twilight shot I would lower the intensity of the sun slightly and light all of the visible interior spaces.