Wine bottle - C&C please

[TonyW]

This is a combination of two shots. They are both backlit through an old frosted-glass door. The set up was exactly the same for each except that for the first there was a black screen behind the bottle. They were both at f/8, ISO200. The first was exposed for 2s, the second for 0.3s. The base is a black acrylic sheet.

[Mike Buckley]

I like the stark simplicity of the two images that enhances the study of them. I also like that you kept the tonalities of the background and tabletop on the right very similar, making it much like the one on the left in that regard.

I'd like to see more definition in both images between the base of the bottle and the reflection. I'm not sure why that is lacking. Perhaps position the camera so the backgrounds fill the frame no more and no less than the sensor, but I'm not sure that will be the solution. Perhaps the frosted glass is diffusing the light differently than the diffusion material I use (tracing paper, synthetic diffusion fabric or translucent white acrylic).

My guess is that you like the bright streaks of light in the background of the image on the left but they are a distraction for me. Consider going to total black during your post-processing to eliminate them.

When making the image on the left, did you have a lot of flare that had to be eliminated by using a flag? I ask because I almost always do when using that lighting setup.

[Shadowman]

Nice efforts.

[TonyW]

Mike, thanks for your comments.

Your guess is right - I do like the colour down the side of the dark version. Not just because it adds colour, but more because it shows the thickness of the wall of the bottle. My explanation of the physics is that the light is reflected from the outside surface to give the white line but some light also penetrates the glass and is reflected off the inside surface and back out again. Nevertheless, I will try your idea and see how it looks.

The screen behind the bottle is not as wide as it is seen in the picture - I have widened it in PP. There are gaps around the screen and to the left and right of the gaps are two more screens (Are these the flags you refer to?). I think the width of this gap controls, at least to some extent, the thickness of the white line.

I thought about the lack of definition between the bottle and its reflection but have not yet found a solution. One of my versions was cropped at this line to eliminate the problem but I thought the reflection was too important. The reason for the problem is that there is no way that the light can get under the bottle. Perhaps lifting the bottle a tiny amount might do something for it. I could draw a line in but that would be cheating.

[TonyW]

Thanks, John.

[Mike Buckley]

I do like the colour down the side of the dark version.

I assume you're referring to the green color on both sides of the bottle. I like that a lot also.

Instead, I'm referring to the vertical, very thin, distracting streaks of bright light appearing almost like dotted lines throughout the entire background including the background area in the center of the bottle. They are most prominent on the left side but once you notice them you also see them throughout the image.

Based on your response, you appeared not to experience any issue with flare. I usually but not always experience flare that I solve by placing a flag near the lens that has a rectangular hole shaped with the same aspect ratio of the sensor. Positioning that flag the proper distance from the lens allows the scene to be recorded while at the same time preventing unwanted light shining directly toward the lens from striking the lens.

[Max von MeiselMaus]

I do like these. You have succeeded in conveying the qualities of the glass effectively. As images, they are also sound. The black background one is more intriguing (because slightly mysterious) but both are easy on the eye.

As for the reflection. The two possible solutions I can think of are to use a material that has less perfect reflective qualities. Frosted perspex, perhaps? This would make the reflection qualitatively different to the bottle and separate it out. The disadvantage might be that the base doesn't blend so well with the BG in the white BG one, as it won't be reflecting it so well. Try and see, I suppose.

The alternative would be to cheat it in post processing. Given that you have a light BG and want the bottle to stand out, I would dodge the reflection slightly (lift it by 10-20%). This would blend it in with the BG a little more (but not so much that it disappears) and differentiate it from the bottle itself.

I like these. You did a good job.

[Mike Buckley]

I just now reviewed my photos of translucent and opaque bottles photographed in the style of the image on the left and notice that I also lost the separation between the base of the object and its reflection. Perhaps this issue is more apparent in your scene because the bottle is translucent above the base but the base itself is almost if not totally opaque. That difference between the base and the rest of the bottle brings attention to the base.

Max's solution would probably help. Rather than use a tabletop made of less reflective material as he suggested, you could lightly spray your tabletop. Another solution is to use a glass tabletop. The tabletop would allow the scene to be lit from underneath, would create a reflection that is less intense than the subject, and would create a double reflection at the base (which you actually may not like).

[Saorsa]

Could I suggest a strip of circle of white, dark green or buff paper below the bottle such that lifts the base slightly off the acrylic. It shouldn't appear in the image except perhaps as a reflection in the thin area between the bottle and acrylic base..

[Loose Canon]

I thought about the lack of definition between the bottle and its reflection but have not yet found a solution. One of my versions was cropped at this line to eliminate the problem but I thought the reflection was too important. The reason for the problem is that there is no way that the light can get under the bottle. Perhaps lifting the bottle a tiny amount might do something for it. I could draw a line in but that would be cheating.

Hi Tony!

Nice shots and my compliments.

If you are looking to get more separation from the tabletop in the dark field/dark table version set up you have chosen you are going to have to get the glass reflecting something in that area. Probably a reflector would do it. You might have to shape said reflector and it might have to be small, and it might even take one to either side. Just depends on what you want (shape, intensity, etc.) reflecting in that area.

When “lighting” reflective surfaces you don’t actually light them as such (meaning directly). Better to think of it instead as lighting something that reflects off the glass, such as a diffusion panel. The lit panel then reflects off the glass. Even if you aim a softbox at it directly you are still firing through, thus lighting the softbox’s diffusion panel or reflector. This is what is “lighting” the sides of the bottle and causing the nice highlights you have produced. That would be the diffusion panel (frosted glass pane) that is lit from behind and reflecting off the glass. It’s a fine line, but understanding this is crucial for lighting reflective surfaces.

[TonyW]

Mike, I misunderstood what you were saying about the background. I actually did not see the streaks that you referred to until later - I need to discuss this with my computer repairman or my ophthalmologist. They are gone now I think.

I tried lightening the reflection as Max suggested but did not really like the result and I also tried lifting the bottle a fraction but that did not solve the problem.

Terry, thanks for your comments. I was actually pleased with myself when the outline showed up as I predicted with the setup I started with.

This is my latest version, actually an edit of the image I showed first. I was able to get the punt showing, albeit faintly.

[Mike Buckley]

I like the clean background but I prefer the composition of the first version.

I forgot to mention that if you want the white outline to appear at the base of the bottle you could light that area differently, perhaps in a second shot and combine the shots. You could also create the white outline during post-processing.

[Loose Canon]

Tony, do you by chance have a version like the latest one that shows the tabletop reflection?

I like this version because it is a bit more bright and contrasty. Especially because the rim of the mouth of the bottle is more pronounced. But I wonder if it has a “chopped off” look because there is nothing defining the bottom of the bottle at the bottom of the frame.

I didn’t think the first version was a big deal not having defining lines at the bottom because of the reflection. The white lines curved inward on both the bottle and the reflection giving the visual cue where the bottle ended and reflection began. But without the reflection that cue is lost. Looks like the cue has been cropped away.

[bnnrcn]

Hi Tony, very nice shots I like the cleaner black BG in your second edit and I too prefer some of the reflection in the composition.

[TonyW]

It looks like the concensis is that I should leave in the reflection. This later version is actually the same as the first but processed differently and the reflection would be easy to put back.

Thanks again.