A child's joy in life (candid) C&C welcome

[William W]

Respectfully disagree with Bill. The body language in these shots add to the understanding of the child's joy. While his face tells part of the story, his body language and the little airplane complete it IMHO.

I don't understand with what you disagree?

Could you explain exactly please.

I am guessing that you disagree with my liking #2 a bit more than #1 . . . or is that you disagree with the additional Post Production ? Or something else? I am unsure.

BTW - I was NOT suggesting that Kim CROP the image. The additional example (of the cropped image) was simply to show her (and others) the detail of the DODGING that was done on his face to reduce the effect of he sun's angle on his deep eyes and proud forehead.

Thanks

WW

[DEAN01]

Mea culpa, Bill. I do prefer number one, but I misunderstood your intent

[William W]

Dean,

Thanks for clarifying. I have edited my Post#8 so as to avoid others misunderstanding why I posted the cropped views.

***

For clarity:

. . .The body language in these shots add to the understanding of the child's joy. While his face tells part of the story, his body language and the little airplane complete it . . .

I concur on both these points.

WW

[William W]

. . . I was disappointed in myself over the ISO (I do see the noise) -- ISO has been challenging for me since the get go. I did get better with it when shooting manual. I just started shooting aperture priority last week-- . . .

I suggest the answer is mostly in the way you think about it.

When using M Mode you were probably (I think definitely) VERY aware of each of the exposure parameters. What I mean is you were at times, closely monitoring each (Aperture / Shutter Speed /ISO), for each shot.

When you started using A Mode, I guess that your brain off-loaded authority and responsibility to the Camera: that’s fine because that way you can concentrate more on other issues, for example composition; the timing; creating rapport and etc. These other issues, most of the time, are more important than thinking about ISO / Aperture / Shutter Speed for each and every shot.

For example (I love this example) when we learned to drive a car (difficult to remember that far back), we would be very careful where we put our feet to control the pedals – I bet a Mars Bar that the VERY FIRST time each of us got into the Driver’s Seat we LOOKED DOWN just to see where the pedals were located – now, today, who of us would ever look down to see where the pedals were located, even when we get into a strange car? It is far better that we concentrate on other issues when driving than looking at the floor to see where the pedals are located.

***

When I go into each new shoot I have a procedure to prepare the camera for the RANGE of LIGHTING situations and the RANGE of SHOOTING SCENARIOS that I expect I will encounter. This is important when using M Mode, but I consider it mandatory when using an AUTOMATIC Mode.

In Post#8 there is an outline of my thinking procedure. I will layout in more detail the portion of my thinking which is related to the the choices of the three Exposure Parameters. It also touches a few, but not all, of some other considerations, that I would think about:


1. For this shoot, I choose to use A Priority (for various reasons)

2. LIGHTING SCENARIO noted when I arrive:

a. Outdoors; light cloud cover; possible direct sun at times – EV approx 12~14 – maybe highlights of EV15 if Sun comes out and hits kid’s face . . . watch out for that.

b. No Flash Fill Available – control motion of Subject and Camera Viewpoint – child has proud forehead, try to get sun forward of direct sidelight, try to get moments when kid is looking slightly upward with the face – look for small hills - get him high and get a bit low – be ready to drop to knee position.

*

3. SHOOTING SCENARIO part known beforehand part noted when I arrive:

a. 2 year old boy; quick and active; unpredictable movements; short attention span – I MUST USE A SHUTTER SPEED RANGE 1/800th to 1/1250th

b. Using 70 to 200mm lens; consider DoF and possible slight miss focus (kid is quick) – I MUST USE APERTURE RANGE F/5.6 ~F/8

c. Quick Calculation for ISO to use:

i) I know that EV 13 = F/8 @ 1/800 @ ISO800. If I don’t know that or if I am not comfortable in my assessment of the EV of the scene where I will be working, then I can look through the camera and check it with the TTL Meter when I get out of my car and I can make a Light Meter Reading as I am walking over to the area where I will be shooting.

ii) If I set ISO800 and set F/5.6 for Aperture Priority the camera will make 1/1600th Shutter Speed - That's OK

iii) Cloud cover gets thicker by One Stop the camera will make the Shutter Speed 1/800th – That’s OK

iv) Cloud cover gets thinner by One Stop the camera will make the Shutter Speed 1/3200th – That’s OK

v) Cloud cover goes (scene at EV15) the camera will make the Shutter Speed 1/6400th – That’s OK

***

So, (because I chose to use A Priority):

> I firstly planned the RANGE of Shutter Speeds required and suitable for the SUBJECT
> then I looked at the most suitable APERTURE to use, considering aspects of DoF and AF,
> then I considered any possible changes in LIGHTING CONDITIONS . . .
> lastly and considering the other two exposure parameters, I chose a suitable ISO to use.

Each of the three Exposure Parameters has a role in the production of the image.

Depending upon the Shooting Scenario; the Lighting Scenario and the Subject Matter - one exposure parameter will always be the MOST important; then one will be the second most important and then once those two are chosen within a suitable RANGE, it is a calculation for the last and the least important Exposure Parameter.

WW


Footnote: Concerning Shutter Speeds necessary to arrest Subject Movement.

At College, (a while ago now) we used computations to address this topic. It was part of the Theory Examinations for the both the Diploma and the Advanced Diploma of Photography. It would be dull and boring to tramp out that stuff here, for this conversation.

The shutter speeds quoted above, and also in Post #8 are an indicative range of suitable Shutter Speed to arrest the motion for Kim's Subject, based upon the theory that I know and my experience photographing children, however there were a few assumptions that I made. The most important assumptions that I made were: the shot would be a Full Length; and the Subject would not necessarily be moving transverse to the Len's Axis.

For an active two year old, if the shot were to be tighter and/or the Subject Motion to be transverse, then around 1/1000 or 1/1250 would be my slowest Shutter Speed Limit to make me feel safe, for all the shots.

[KimC]

Thank you Izzie :-)

Beautiful shots, both of them, completely different from one another. 'Reminds me of my little grandchild in her unguarded moments --kids are just as cute but unpredictable as to what they will do next or how you get them in your shot next. #1 is the most engaging of the two. Excellent shots! You've done very well here indeed.

[KimC]

Bill I apologize for the lack of response yesterday; I was not available.

Yes, Yes! When on M I did monitor everything, every second. And thinking about the settings came before all else. I do believe I did relinquish too much authority to the camera once I started shooting on A. I also find, my brain had to think differently when using EC, which is a bit of a challenge at this point (figuring out where and how much I need to adjust - even when looking at my histogram, I have been off.)

I did some shooting yesterday and was thinking about going back to M, but forced myself to stay on A.

As to learning to drive a car -- I learned on a Standard, and I still vividly remember the experience and giving my father whip lash. For me, the challenge was to find the clutch petal ;-)

I suggest the answer is mostly in the way you think about it.

When using M Mode you were probably (I think definitely) VERY aware of each of the exposure parameters. What I mean is you were at times, closely monitoring each (Aperture / Shutter Speed /ISO), for each shot.

When you started using A Mode, I guess that your brain off-loaded authority and responsibility to the Camera: that’s fine because that way you can concentrate more on other issues, for example composition; the timing; creating rapport and etc. These other issues, most of the time, are more important than thinking about ISO / Aperture / Shutter Speed for each and every shot.

For example (I love this example) when we learned to drive a car (difficult to remember that far back), we would be very careful where we put our feet to control the pedals – I bet a Mars Bar that the VERY FIRST time each of us got into the Driver’s Seat we LOOKED DOWN just to see where the pedals were located – now, today, who of us would ever look down to see where the pedals were located, even when we get into a strange car? It is far better that we concentrate on other issues when driving than looking at the floor to see where the pedals are located.

This is VERY helpful -- thank you.

b. No Flash Fill Available – control motion of Subject and Camera Viewpoint – child has proud forehead, try to get sun forward of direct sidelight, try to get moments when kid is looking slightly upward with the face – look for small hills - get him high and get a bit low – be ready to drop to knee position.

Bill, this is extremely helpful!! Thank you.

Question - would you mind explaining when EC would come into the below?

SHOOTING SCENARIO[/B] part known beforehand part noted when I arrive:

a. 2 year old boy; quick and active; unpredictable movements; short attention span – I MUST USE A SHUTTER SPEED RANGE 1/800th to 1/1250th

b. Using 70 to 200mm lens; consider DoF and possible slight miss focus (kid is quick) – I MUST USE APERTURE RANGE F/5.6 ~F/8

c. Quick Calculation for ISO to use:

i) I know that EV 13 = F/8 @ 1/800 @ ISO800. If I don’t know that or if I am not comfortable in my assessment of the EV of the scene where I will be working, then I can look through the camera and check it with the TTL Meter when I get out of my car and I can make a Light Meter Reading as I am walking over to the area where I will be shooting.

ii) If I set ISO800 and set F/5.6 for Aperture Priority the camera will make 1/1600th Shutter Speed - That's OK

iii) Cloud cover gets thicker by One Stop the camera will make the Shutter Speed 1/800th – That’s OK

iv) Cloud cover gets thinner by One Stop the camera will make the Shutter Speed 1/3200th – That’s OK

v) Cloud cover goes (scene at EV15) the camera will make the Shutter Speed 1/6400th – That’s OK

***

So, (because I chose to use A Priority):

> I firstly planned the RANGE of Shutter Speeds required and suitable for the SUBJECT
> then I looked at the most suitable APERTURE to use, considering aspects of DoF and AF,
> then I considered any possible changes in LIGHTING CONDITIONS . . .
> lastly and considering the other two exposure parameters, I chose a suitable ISO to use.

Each of the three Exposure Parameters has a role in the production of the image.

Depending upon the Shooting Scenario; the Lighting Scenario and the Subject Matter - one exposure parameter will always be the MOST important; then one will be the second most important and then once those two are chosen within a suitable RANGE, it is a calculation for the last and the least important Exposure Parameter.

WW


Footnote: Concerning Shutter Speeds necessary to arrest Subject Movement.

At College, (a while ago now) we used computations to address this topic. It was part of the Theory Examinations for the both the Diploma and the Advanced Diploma of Photography. It would be dull and boring to tramp out that stuff here, for this conversation.

The shutter speeds quoted above, and also in Post #8 are an indicative range of suitable Shutter Speed to arrest the motion for Kim's Subject, based upon the theory that I know and my experience photographing children, however there were a few assumptions that I made. The most important assumptions that I made were: the shot would be a Full Length; and the Subject would not necessarily be moving transverse to the Len's Axis.

For an active two year old, if the shot were to be tighter and/or the Subject Motion to be transverse, then around 1/1000 or 1/1250 would be my slowest Shutter Speed Limit to make me feel safe, for all the shots.

[Manfred M]

Hi Kim; I'm a bit late to the thread (on the road too much over the past few weeks), but I think you might find I echo some of Bill's thoughts. I do like your images, by the way.

When shooting (especially in this kind of setting), the first thing I will do is look at the light and select and ISO value to shoot at. I generally try to pick a value as low as I can get; not only is the noise level in the image a non-issue at lower ISO values, but the colour depth is higher as well. Just like in the film days, a low ISO will get you a better image than a higher one.

I tend to shoot in one of the automated modes and in instances like this, I will tend to shoot shutter priority. Depending on the amount of motion, 1/500th is as low as I will go and I will crank that up if there is fairly fast motion. Ideally the camera will give me an aperture of around f/5.6, which will give me enough wriggle room for the focus to miss a tad, but still be working at an aperture that gives me a good trade off for depth of field.

In post, I will definitely do a bit of dodging (or burning, if required) of the face and I will also almost automatically put a slight vignette around the subject to tone down the background a bit.

[Mike Buckley]

Kim,

This situation is ideal for shooting Aperture Priority and Auto ISO with the camera's ISO set to its base ISO. That's because the camera will always choose the lowest ISO value that is allowed by the combined aperture and Auto ISO settings. Additionally, the Auto ISO setting of the minimum shutter speed, when used correctly, ensures that the shutter is fast enough for handheld shooting and fast enough to stop the boy's action.

All of that can be done manually but I prefer to use the automation built into the camera, as I give up nothing by using it.

[John 2]

The trouble with this site is that it is so active that it is easy to miss things. Three beautiful shots Kim, particularly 1 &3 where the his character really comes across for me.. I also agree that some dodging on the face helps but don't go too far on the lighter side of his face so that it looks unnatural.

[Donald]

The trouble with this site is that it is so active that it is easy to miss things.

I agree. There's so much good stuff that you just don't get a chance to get to.

Apart from being such lovely engaging pictures, this thread is, for me, yet another example of what CiC is about and what makes it so good to be part of. The sort of tutorial/learning information that's had been offered on here is the sort of thing you would otherwise have to pay a lot of money for. The fact that people like Bill, Manfred, Mike etc., share their knowledge and experience in this way is just wonderful.

[William W]

Kim, et al,

I have referenced this thread and also quoted part of Kim's opening post in a thread, on entirely a different topic, which I began: HERE. (Post #12)

Mentioned here, apropos etiquette and as a professional courtesy.

William

[William W]

. . . This situation is ideal for shooting Aperture Priority and Auto ISO with the camera's ISO set to its base ISO. That's because the camera will always choose the lowest ISO value that is allowed by the combined aperture and Auto ISO settings. Additionally, the Auto ISO setting of the minimum shutter speed, when used correctly, ensures that the shutter is fast enough for handheld shooting and fast enough to stop the boy's action. . . .

Thank you.

I didn't know that level of the detail of the functionality for the NIKON D810 and so I was very careful not to mention AUTO ISO, even in passing. I am glad you did.

Do you know if that so for ALL Nikon DSLR's that possess AUTO ISO Function? (i.e. I am asking is it possible to set a MINIMUM SHUTTER SPEED on every Nikon DSLR that has Auto ISO?)

WW

[Mike Buckley]

(i.e. I am asking is it possible to set a MINIMUM SHUTTER SPEED on every Nikon DSLR that has Auto ISO?) WW

I know the Nikon D80, which was released in 2006, has that capability. I assume every Nikon DSLR released since then has it. The two Nikon cameras I bought since then also have it.

[Dave Humphries]

I know the Nikon D80, which was released in 2006, has that capability. I assume every Nikon DSLR released since then has it.

My D5000, bought 2009, does not have Auto-ISO, therefore the D3000 wouldn't have either.

The above is --- WRONG ---- (edited post later, after checking my manual, following Mike's advice)



Hi Kim,

Above, you posed a question which I don't think anyone has attempted to answer:

Question - would you mind explaining when EC would come into the below?

The 'below' you quote was the "Shooting Scenario" section in Post #24, written by Bill - that text is quite long, so I won't include it again here. There's actually nothing in there that really relates to the use of EC (Exposure Compensation) per se.

It seems you are used to shooting Manual and are now struggling with the semi-auto modes, currently "A" (Aperture Priority) and what EC does - I'll try to explain, but in doing so, I may make some incorrect assumptions about how you worked in Manual mode in my attempt to explain it in a way I hope you find easy to understand. If I have erred; please let me know.


When shooting in Manual; you probably set initial exposure from the meter reading, changing the controls to get it centred.

I suspect/assume you may never have used EC in Manual and relied on reviewing the images just shot, including the histograms/blinkies, then changing one or more settings manually to achieve an increase or decrease in exposure as required. By-the-by; this would have resulted in the meter being offset from centre.

When the scene (or light level) changed, the meter reading will also have changed - what did you do then?
a) Shoot anyway and review the image, readjust exposure and re-shoot?
b) Look at the meter and think; "well, it needed to be one stop 'over' before, so I'll adjust the settings to make the meter read one stop 'over' now, before I shoot"?

So that's how you might have dealt with a disagreement between what the meter thought was correct and what you knew was needed - fairly easy because you're in total control of the settings.


However, if you shoot Aperture priority, you relinquish control of shutter speed to the camera's meter, so (in our example) if you don't want the exposure to be what the meter thinks is correct (because you want it one stop 'over'), how do you achieve that?
That is what EC is for - you turn the rear control wheel while simultaneously holding down the "+/-" button, so it puts an off set of one stop into the shutter speed (then let go of the button). Thereafter, all your shots will be one stop more exposed than what the meter thinks they should be (assuming you turned the wheel in the correct direction).

Best to have a play around in a controlled environment to get the hang of it.

Hope that's helpful, Dave

PS - I have deliberately not gone in to the use of EC with Manual in trying to keep this explanation simpler/shorter.

This situation is ideal for shooting Aperture Priority and Auto ISO with the camera's ISO set to its base ISO. That's because the camera will always choose the lowest ISO value that is allowed by the combined aperture and Auto ISO settings. Additionally, the Auto ISO setting of the minimum shutter speed, when used correctly, ensures that the shutter is fast enough for handheld shooting and fast enough to stop the boy's action.

Personally, I think Kim might be better off with Manual and Auto-ISO, since that definitively sets two thing that really matter; Depth of Field (Aperture) and Shutter speed. I don't see using base ISO as being so important in most shooting situations.

Also; using Auto-ISO combined with Aperture Priority requires setting minimum shutter speeds in the menu, in addition to maximum ISO, etc. = even more complexity (to my mind).

[William W]

Mike: That assumption makes sense, thank you.

Dave: Thanks for the added information re Auto ISO / Nikon.

Busy now, back later - response to EC question is half written

WW

[Mike Buckley]

My D5000, bought 2009, does not have Auto-ISO, therefore the D3000 wouldn't have either.

If your D5000 really doesn't have Auto ISO, I strongly recommend that you return it. That's because the user's manual repeatedly indicates that it should have it. Indeed, the user's manual of both the D5000 and the D3000 indicate that they also have the minimum shutter speed William asked about to be configured in the Auto ISO.

I still believe that any Nikon DSLR that was released in 2006 or later will have the Auto ISO functionality including the ability to configure the minimum shutter speed. I won't be surprised to learn that cameras released earlier also have that functionality.

[Dave Humphries]

If your D5000 really doesn't have Auto ISO, I strongly recommend that you return it. That's because the user's manual repeatedly indicates that it should have it. Indeed, the user's manual of both the D5000 and the D3000 indicate that they also have the minimum shutter speed William asked about to be configured in the Auto ISO.

Well I never!
You learn something new everyday!

How embarrassing

Post above edited to make my error clear, so as not to mislead future readers.

I still believe that any Nikon DSLR that was released in 2006 or later will have the Auto ISO functionality including the ability to configure the minimum shutter speed. I won't be surprised to learn that cameras released earlier also have that functionality.

You're most probably correct then.

[Mike Buckley]

using Auto-ISO combined with Aperture Priority requires setting minimum shutter speeds in the menu, in addition to maximum ISO, etc. = even more complexity (to my mind).

I agree that it's more complex when making the setting. However, it's an investment in time that pays off later because once it's set, you leave it that way until your situation changes to such a degree that you would want to change the minimum shutter speed. As an example, I use mostly prime lenses, so once I mount a lens, I configure the minimum shutter speed to allow me to hand hold that focal length and address whatever other speed requirements I have (such as stopping action).

I configure my wife's minimum shutter speed to accommodate the longest focal length of her zoom lens, which almost always stops the action of anything she would normally photograph. She uses only one lens, so I never have to change the minimum shutter speed for her.

[Mike Buckley]

I imagine that when Kim returns to the thread, she's gonna be sorry she ever started it.

[William W]

Question - would you mind explaining when EC would come into the below?

Originally Posted by William W . . .
i) I know that EV 13 = F/8 @ 1/800 @ ISO800. If I don’t know that or if I am not comfortable in my assessment of the EV of the scene where I will be working, then I can look through the camera and check it with the TTL Meter when I get out of my car and I can make a Light Meter Reading as I am walking over to the area where I will be shooting.
. . .
So, (because I chose to use A Priority):
> I firstly planned the RANGE of Shutter Speeds required and suitable for the SUBJECT
> then I looked at the most suitable APERTURE to use, considering aspects of DoF and AF,
> then I considered any possible changes in LIGHTING CONDITIONS . . .
> lastly and considering the other two exposure parameters, I chose a suitable ISO to use.

I consider two broad criteria when choosing HOW to use EC (Exposure Compensation) –

1. The EC applied at the outset considering the specific Lighting Scenario

2. Changing the EC to accommodate Lighting Scenario or Shooting Scenario changes (aka “Riding the EC”)

*

Firstly, note that my thinking is that I would (nearly always) choose MATRIX Metering because I chose Aperture Priority. I hold MATRIX Metering in quite high esteem, IMO better than Canon’s EVALUATIVE is, in some situations.

When considering any lighting situation I would usually set the EC at a figure established from trial and error with my camera with respect to how much I could push the raw file and still recover the highlights. In other words basically I am getting as much of the shadows out of noise territory, as possible. This figure, for my 5D Series Cameras is usually between ±⅔Stop.

The phrase “any particular lighting scenario” relates to a group of three general lighting scenarios:

> Harsh Daylight – (self explanatory)

> Soft – (includes cloud cover, soft interior lighting either by diffused daylight through window or soft manmade lights. Etc )

> Dim with hard bright light sources (includes stage lighting, harsh interior domestic lighting, etc)

Your lighting scenario would be “Soft” and for my Camera I would set +⅔Stop as my starting EC for Av Priority and EVALUATIVE Metering – my guess is I would do similar for a Nikon D810 (using MATRIX Metering).

*

My next consideration is when to ride the EC and by how much. I consider these two 'families' of reasons:

a) Change in LIGHTING OF THE SCENE which could/would skew the Automatic Metering/Exposure Control

b) Change in ELEMENTS IN THE SCENE which could/would skew the Automatic Metering/Exposure Control

For your lighting/shooting scenario here are two examples –

a) Change in LIGHTING OF THE SCENE

Sun peeks through clouds and there is a dappled highlight of Direct Sun on Subject’s Face – possibly the algorithm of Matrix Metering will NOT adjust for such a small area of the scene and as a result there will be a burnt area on the Subject’s Face – this area could possibly be cloned in Post Production, but generally I would ride EC to about - ⅔ ~ -1 so there was not any burnt out area, on an important area of the image - (not to e confused with allowing, by choice, an UNimportant area to be burnt out).

(I have found Nikon’s MATRIX Metring to be slightly superior to Canon’s EVALUATIVE Metering in this particular circumstance).

As mentioned in other commentaries, I think it is worthwhile, in fact mandatory to understand the functionality of one’s camera’s Metering Modes – and know the limits of same. Some argue that this is where the Histogram is to be used – to check and the re-shoot the shot if there is an overexposure. I have no counter argument to that logic, provided that one has the opportunity to have a second chance at the shot.

Because I began the major area of my Photography career shooting Weddings, (for some shots there is NO second chance) and I initially worked for an exceptionally tough, no nonsense employer, who didn’t tolerate many: errors; wasted film; or missed shots are probably the key to the reasons why I still approach each shot, as if it is my only chance for it.


b) Change in ELEMENTS IN THE SCENE

Subject runs over to Mum who is dressed in a large WHITE flowing garment which occupies a large portion of frame - such a large area of white in the frame could confuse the Camera’s Metering and I would consider riding the EC to +1 or maybe +1⅓ in some circumstances.

***

Using Auto ISO, a limited comment:

> firstly, although I am quite familiar with Nikon, I don’t use Nikon DSLR’s for my own work;

> secondly (especially) Canon DSLR’s and (in some manner) Fuji Mirrorless are digital cameras which I do use and these have different functionalities apropos Auto ISO when compared to Nikon DSLR’s.

> thirdly, my choice of technique is generally to have fewer, rather than more functions which are automatically controlled by the Camera’s TTL Light Meter.

That stated, I do agree with Mike, that for this described Lighting Scenario (i.e. "soft" and unlikely to have massive EV changes) and considering that using a Nikon D810 one can set a slow Shutter Speed Limit, then having the facility for the ISO to change automatically seems to me to be a very good choice to consider: I don’t know if I am convinced enough to use Auto ISO myself – but that choice of mine is more about the way I LIKE to work and not about the logicality of the usefulness and adaption of the Automatic ISO Function.

CAVEAT: provided the functionality of EC would firstly adjust the SHUTTER SPEED until the Shutter Speed reached the slowest speed limit and then and only then would the EC would adjust the ISO. (I assume this would so and the logical functionality).

WW