A child's joy in life (candid) C&C welcome

[Rider in the Sky]

I agree. There's so much good stuff that you just don't get a chance to get to.

Apart from being such lovely engaging pictures, this thread is, for me, yet another example of what CiC is about and what makes it so good to be part of. The sort of tutorial/learning information that's had been offered on here is the sort of thing you would otherwise have to pay a lot of money for. The fact that people like Bill, Manfred, Mike etc., share their knowledge and experience in this way is just wonderful.

Absolutely !
There is so much info here that I have to save it so I can read and re-read to get what they mean. Then , after trying out their advice, reviewing the shots taken, go back to their posts to see whether I got it right.

Thanks y'all!

Especially to Kim for making all this possible in this thread.

[KimC]

Wow, I have been away for a couple of days... what amazing information has been shared! It will take me a bit of time to respond.

[KimC]

Sorry for the delay in responding Manfred. Picking the ISO is usually my first order of business as well, and I do always try to go for the lowest. What messed me up was - determining what I needed for a shutter speed to make sure I stopped the action on this child (which Bill added insight into). I appreciate your comment on using shutter priority - that most likely would have helped me to get to that lower ISO (based on the way my brain is working with not shooting in M at this point).

Hi Kim; I'm a bit late to the thread (on the road too much over the past few weeks), but I think you might find I echo some of Bill's thoughts. I do like your images, by the way.

When shooting (especially in this kind of setting), the first thing I will do is look at the light and select and ISO value to shoot at. I generally try to pick a value as low as I can get; not only is the noise level in the image a non-issue at lower ISO values, but the colour depth is higher as well. Just like in the film days, a low ISO will get you a better image than a higher one.

I tend to shoot in one of the automated modes and in instances like this, I will tend to shoot shutter priority. Depending on the amount of motion, 1/500th is as low as I will go and I will crank that up if there is fairly fast motion. Ideally the camera will give me an aperture of around f/5.6, which will give me enough wriggle room for the focus to miss a tad, but still be working at an aperture that gives me a good trade off for depth of field.

In post, I will definitely do a bit of dodging (or burning, if required) of the face and I will also almost automatically put a slight vignette around the subject to tone down the background a bit.

[KimC]

Hi Mike - sorry for the delay. Ohhhhh Auto ISO -- you must have forgot my first experience last year with auto ISO ;-) It's prob time I give it another try now that I have a partial clue. I also know I can set-up custom setting banks in my camera and set minimum and maximums on various items.

Kim,

This situation is ideal for shooting Aperture Priority and Auto ISO with the camera's ISO set to its base ISO. That's because the camera will always choose the lowest ISO value that is allowed by the combined aperture and Auto ISO settings. Additionally, the Auto ISO setting of the minimum shutter speed, when used correctly, ensures that the shutter is fast enough for handheld shooting and fast enough to stop the boy's action.

All of that can be done manually but I prefer to use the automation built into the camera, as I give up nothing by using it.

[KimC]

Thank you John. The 3rd shot included slight dodging; that was a far as I wanted to take it otherwise the child doesn't look like himself.

The trouble with this site is that it is so active that it is easy to miss things. Three beautiful shots Kim, particularly 1 &3 where the his character really comes across for me.. I also agree that some dodging on the face helps but don't go too far on the lighter side of his face so that it looks unnatural.

[KimC]

I agree Donald! This has been an extremely helpful thread thanks to the participants; THANKS to you ALL!

I agree. There's so much good stuff that you just don't get a chance to get to.

Apart from being such lovely engaging pictures, this thread is, for me, yet another example of what CiC is about and what makes it so good to be part of. The sort of tutorial/learning information that's had been offered on here is the sort of thing you would otherwise have to pay a lot of money for. The fact that people like Bill, Manfred, Mike etc., share their knowledge and experience in this way is just wonderful.

[KimC]

Thank you

Above, you posed a question which I don't think anyone has attempted to answer:

The 'below' you quote was the "Shooting Scenario" section in Post #24, written by Bill - that text is quite long, so I won't include it again here. There's actually nothing in there that really relates to the use of EC (Exposure Compensation) per se..

..... If I have erred; please let me know.

Correct on both points below.

When shooting in Manual; you probably set initial exposure from the meter reading, changing the controls to get it centred.

I suspect/assume you may never have used EC in Manual and relied on reviewing the images just shot, including the histograms/blinkies, then changing one or more settings manually to achieve an increase or decrease in exposure as required. By-the-by; this would have resulted in the meter being offset from centre.

Would never do "a" would always do "b" - this resulted in missing some good shots, which is why I decided to give A a try. Due to my hand limitations, it took some time to make the adjustments (I know it's hard to understand for some, but I virtually have no strength in my thumb and index finger on my right hand).

When the scene (or light level) changed, the meter reading will also have changed - what did you do then?
a) Shoot anyway and review the image, readjust exposure and re-shoot?
b) Look at the meter and think; "well, it needed to be one stop 'over' before, so I'll adjust the settings to make the meter read one stop 'over' now, before I shoot"?

Yes, I do understand that, and I even figured out how to set my camera so I don't have to hold down the "+/-" button which is a huge help to me. I also turned on the function so it resets itself to center -- not sure I like that thou as it resets quickly. My problem is, I still feel like I am making blind decisions -- it doesn't feel the same as when I was adjusting as outlined in "b" when in M. Perhaps it's just a matter of not being comfortable yet.

So that's how you might have dealt with a disagreement between what the meter thought was correct and what you knew was needed - fairly easy because you're in total control of the settings.


However, if you shoot Aperture priority, you relinquish control of shutter speed to the camera's meter, so (in our example) if you don't want the exposure to be what the meter thinks is correct (because you want it one stop 'over'), how do you achieve that?
That is what EC is for - you turn the rear control wheel while simultaneously holding down the "+/-" button, so it puts an off set of one stop into the shutter speed (then let go of the button). Thereafter, all your shots will be one stop more exposed than what the meter thinks they should be (assuming you turned the wheel in the correct direction).

I'm not ready to return to M yet Dave, as I am getting better images in A (my brain can think more about other things than so very focused on settings). I do know how to set the custom settings bank.

Thank you for your assistance.

Personally, I think Kim might be better off with Manual and Auto-ISO, since that definitively sets two thing that really matter; Depth of Field (Aperture) and Shutter speed. I don't see using base ISO as being so important in most shooting situations.

Also; using Auto-ISO combined with Aperture Priority requires setting minimum shutter speeds in the menu, in addition to maximum ISO, etc. = even more complexity (to my mind).

[KimC]

I agree it's an investment Mike and I do know how to do this...

I agree that it's more complex when making the setting. However, it's an investment in time that pays off later because once it's set, you leave it that way until your situation changes to such a degree that you would want to change the minimum shutter speed. As an example, I use mostly prime lenses, so once I mount a lens, I configure the minimum shutter speed to allow me to hand hold that focal length and address whatever other speed requirements I have (such as stopping action).

I configure my wife's minimum shutter speed to accommodate the longest focal length of her zoom lens, which almost always stops the action of anything she would normally photograph. She uses only one lens, so I never have to change the minimum shutter speed for her.

[KimC]

For what I currently shoot Bill, I am pretty much always in Matrix.

Firstly, note that my thinking is that I would (nearly always) choose MATRIX Metering because I chose Aperture Priority. I hold MATRIX Metering in quite high esteem, IMO better than Canon’s EVALUATIVE is, in some situations.

Bill, so to be sure I am understanding, you are saying on a "soft" day you would INCREASE exposure by 2/3 stop using EC?

When considering any lighting situation I would usually set the EC at a figure established from trial and error with my camera with respect to how much I could push the raw file and still recover the highlights. In other words basically I am getting as much of the shadows out of noise territory, as possible. This figure, for my 5D Series Cameras is usually between ±⅔Stop.

The phrase “any particular lighting scenario” relates to a group of three general lighting scenarios:

> Harsh Daylight – (self explanatory)

> Soft – (includes cloud cover, soft interior lighting either by diffused daylight through window or soft manmade lights. Etc )

> Dim with hard bright light sources (includes stage lighting, harsh interior domestic lighting, etc)

Your lighting scenario would be “Soft” and for my Camera I would set +⅔Stop as my starting EC for Av Priority and EVALUATIVE Metering – my guess is I would do similar for a Nikon D810 (using MATRIX Metering).

Very helpful - understand.

My next consideration is when to ride the EC and by how much. I consider these two 'families' of reasons:

a) Change in LIGHTING OF THE SCENE which could/would skew the Automatic Metering/Exposure Control

b) Change in ELEMENTS IN THE SCENE which could/would skew the Automatic Metering/Exposure Control

For your lighting/shooting scenario here are two examples –

a) Change in LIGHTING OF THE SCENE

Sun peeks through clouds and there is a dappled highlight of Direct Sun on Subject’s Face – possibly the algorithm of Matrix Metering will NOT adjust for such a small area of the scene and as a result there will be a burnt area on the Subject’s Face – this area could possibly be cloned in Post Production, but generally I would ride EC to about - ⅔ ~ -1 so there was not any burnt out area, on an important area of the image - (not to e confused with allowing, by choice, an UNimportant area to be burnt out).

(I have found Nikon’s MATRIX Metring to be slightly superior to Canon’s EVALUATIVE Metering in this particular circumstance).

As mentioned in other commentaries, I think it is worthwhile, in fact mandatory to understand the functionality of one’s camera’s Metering Modes – and know the limits of same. Some argue that this is where the Histogram is to be used – to check and the re-shoot the shot if there is an overexposure. I have no counter argument to that logic, provided that one has the opportunity to have a second chance at the shot.

Because I began the major area of my Photography career shooting Weddings, (for some shots there is NO second chance) and I initially worked for an exceptionally tough, no nonsense employer, who didn’t tolerate many: errors; wasted film; or missed shots are probably the key to the reasons why I still approach each shot, as if it is my only chance for it.

Need some help here Bill. My brain is thinking if it's still a cloudy day and a large white garment enters the scene, the camera's meter is going to want to over exposure that. So I am confused what you would want to increase the EC +1 or more -- I am thinking it will be over exposed...

b) Change in ELEMENTS IN THE SCENE

Subject runs over to Mum who is dressed in a large WHITE flowing garment which occupies a large portion of frame - such a large area of white in the frame could confuse the Camera’s Metering and I would consider riding the EC to +1 or maybe +1⅓ in some circumstances.

WW

Thank you SO much of all your help!

[Mike Buckley]

I even figured out how to set my camera so I don't have to hold down the "+/-" button which is a huge help to me.

Hopefully you're aware that you can also switch the roles of the command and sub-command dials, which might make things easier for you.

[KimC]

Yes :-) Thanks Mike.

Hopefully you're aware that you can also switch the roles of the command and sub-command dials, which might make things easier for you.

[Mike Buckley]

I'm going to jump into the discussion started by Bill, hoping to add to it rather than get in the way of it.

Bill, so to be sure I am understanding, you are saying on a "soft" day you would INCREASE exposure by 2/3 stop using EC?

A soft day is too much of a generalization to my way of thinking. As an example, if I am capturing a scene that includes mostly the sky and the camera is aimed partly toward the sun, the EC will have to be very different than when I am not including much of the sky, when the sun is behind me, and the scene is made up of objects that are of the typical full range of luminosity.

Another point is that when using many Nikon cameras (some more so than others), when using single-point focusing, the luminosity of the object being used as the focus point will affect how the scene is metered. It has never made any sense to me why that is so, but it has been very well documented that it is so.

So, my solution is to always estimate the ideal exposure compensation as a starting point, capture the image, and then evaluate the histogram. If the exposure is too far off, hopefully it's the kind of scene that I can adjust the exposure and capture it again. If it's the kind of scene such as one that includes a particular look of a small child that cannot be recreated, at least I have done my best to achieve the ideal exposure. If it proves not to be the ideal exposure, hopefully I can make adjustments during post-processing without creating artifacts.

[Mike Buckley]

My brain is thinking if it's still a cloudy day and a large white garment enters the scene, the camera's meter is going to want to over exposure that.

As in my earlier post, for me that's too much of a generalization. We can have a scene with dark grey clouds and we can have a scene with bright white clouds depending on the density of the clouds and whether we are shooting toward the sun. Depending on the situation, the exposure of the white garment will be very different if that garment is only a small portion of the scene.

[Dave Humphries]

I'm going to jump into the discussion started by Bill, hoping to add to it rather than get in the way of it.

At the risk of the third cook 'spoiling the broth'

Soft – (includes cloud cover, soft interior lighting either by diffused daylight through window or soft manmade lights. Etc )

Your lighting scenario would be “Soft” and for my Camera I would set +⅔Stop as my starting EC for Av Priority and EVALUATIVE Metering – my guess is I would do similar for a Nikon D810 (using MATRIX Metering).

My assumption was that Bill's advice applied to a scene rather like that in the original post, e.g. where there is no sky to consider, it is just a reflective scene with no light source, or if any sky, just clouds lit from (their) behind.

Your query Kim:

My brain is thinking if it's still a cloudy day and a large white garment enters the scene, the camera's meter is going to want to over exposure that.

Which relates to when this happens:

b) Change in ELEMENTS IN THE SCENE

Subject runs over to Mum who is dressed in a large WHITE flowing garment which occupies a large portion of frame - such a large area of white in the frame could confuse the Camera’s Metering and I would consider riding the EC to +1 or maybe +1⅓ in some circumstances.

So what has happened?
The meter had evaluated the scene to mid-grey and we had already set to expose more (by +2/3 stop EC), but now it contains much more white (compared to other tones) than it did, so the meter re-evaluates the scene.

Problem is; the meter cannot tell the difference between what (we know) really happened and the light on scene getting brighter, so it compensates by reducing exposure. This will dim the faces and other tones in the image (including the white, which will become a pale grey) in a manner we do not want, hence the need to effectively restore the exposure back to where it was - by forcing yet more +EC as Bill suggests.

This is where, having determined a correct exposure, I might switch to Manual (retaining these 'good' values), especially when shooting wildlife in very similar situation; e.g. where only the reflected luminosity of the scene is changing and I want to maintain the exposure of certain important elements of the image (e.g. face).

Of course, if I am already in Manual and using Auto-ISO, then I achieve this by switching to the relevant fixed ISO to maintain the exposure.

The human brain knows better than the meter, so we have to intervene when not fully Manual.

Hope that helps, Dave

PS, I don't think there's anything specific I need to respond to, from your reply to my post, except to say your thumb and forefinger problems obviously complicates things for you

I think it is a matter of practice to 'get comfortable', I am still developing my shooting habits.

In my view, a person doesn't have to be an 'always Manual' or 'always A' (Aperture Priority) shooter; use what's best for the specifics of the scene in front of the lens - and change that minutes later when what's being shot changes. That said, a period of enforced sticking to one method is probably necessary while we get used to how it works and build our experience level. I think that's where you are now with "A" mode.

[Mike Buckley]

The human brain knows better than the meter, so we have to intervene when not fully Manual.

The same is true when operating in fully manual mode in the sense that we have to intervene with what the meter is reporting the "correct" exposure to be.

[KimC]

Dave, I have to tell you, when I read your post, I actually laughed out loud, not because it was funny, but because it brought me a light bulb movement and helped me to figure out part of my problem. I was thinking in M mode still. I wasn't thinking that the camera would readjust and that's why I would need to increase the exposure. Seems so silly!

At the risk of the third cook 'spoiling the broth'


So what has happened?
The meter had evaluated the scene to mid-grey and we had already set to expose more (by +2/3 stop EC), but now it contains much more white (compared to other tones) than it did, so the meter re-evaluates the scene.

Problem is; the meter cannot tell the difference between what (we know) really happened and the light on scene getting brighter, so it compensates by reducing exposure. This will dim the faces and other tones in the image (including the white, which will become a pale grey) in a manner we do not want, hence the need to effectively restore the exposure back to where it was - by forcing yet more +EC as Bill suggests.

This is where, having determined a correct exposure, I might switch to Manual (retaining these 'good' values), especially when shooting wildlife in very similar situation; e.g. where only the reflected luminosity of the scene is changing and I want to maintain the exposure of certain important elements of the image (e.g. face).

Of course, if I am already in Manual and using Auto-ISO, then I achieve this by switching to the relevant fixed ISO to maintain the exposure.

The human brain knows better than the meter, so we have to intervene when not fully Manual.

Hope that helps, Dave

Yes absolutely and coldness makes matters worse and causes a needed adjustment. I agree.. it's all about getting comfortable with it all, and for me, sticking with one for a bit seems to make sense for me. I would switch to M for certain situations thou. Flexibility in all we do is important.

I think it is a matter of practice to 'get comfortable', I am still developing my shooting habits.

In my view, a person doesn't have to be an 'always Manual' or 'always A' (Aperture Priority) shooter; use what's best for the specifics of the scene in front of the lens - and change that minutes later when what's being shot changes. That said, a period of enforced sticking to one method is probably necessary while we get used to how it works and build our experience level. I think that's where you are now with "A" mode.

[Dave Humphries]

The same is true when operating in fully manual mode in the sense that we have to intervene with what the meter is reporting the "correct" exposure to be.

True, but then when I'm in (full) Manual mode, I rarely pay much attention to the meter
Let me eloborate ..

Particularly in the situation described in my indented paragraphs, I just want a fixed exposure, end-of.

If I'm not in that situation, that's usually when I switch to Auto-ISO or Aperture/Shutter Priority, whichever suits the shooting situation best (and use EC).

Although, when in (full) M mode, if review of recent images indicates an exposure error, I'll change one side of the exposure triangle to compensate (which was your valid point).

I appreciate this is information that was in my head and not in this thread, my bad!


I may even use EC in Manual (which works on Nikons, not Canons) to re-centre the meter, when I am using the meter in (full) M mode.

[KimC]

I have noticed that about single point focusing as well and it was what I thought a lot about when I was shooting on Manual Mike.

Thanks for the added information you have shared in your latest posts.

I'm going to jump into the discussion started by Bill, hoping to add to it rather than get in the way of it.

A soft day is too much of a generalization to my way of thinking. As an example, if I am capturing a scene that includes mostly the sky and the camera is aimed partly toward the sun, the EC will have to be very different than when I am not including much of the sky, when the sun is behind me, and the scene is made up of objects that are of the typical full range of luminosity.

Another point is that when using many Nikon cameras (some more so than others), when using single-point focusing, the luminosity of the object being used as the focus point will affect how the scene is metered. It has never made any sense to me why that is so, but it has been very well documented that it is so.

So, my solution is to always estimate the ideal exposure compensation as a starting point, capture the image, and then evaluate the histogram. If the exposure is too far off, hopefully it's the kind of scene that I can adjust the exposure and capture it again. If it's the kind of scene such as one that includes a particular look of a small child that cannot be recreated, at least I have done my best to achieve the ideal exposure. If it proves not to be the ideal exposure, hopefully I can make adjustments during post-processing without creating artifacts.

[Dave Humphries]

Hey Kim, I love it when the bulb comes on

... and I've had a few similar LOL moments myself over the years!

[Mike Buckley]

Hey Kim, I love it when the bulb comes on

In my case, the bulb usually breaks.