First B&W

[FootLoose]

Setting aside the discussion of the processing for a moment, I think that is a great composition, Sam. Well seen.

[selig1656]

Well com[posed and a nice result in b&W

[Sam W]

Thanks for the pointers Manfred, I'll be trying them out.

[Sam W]

Setting aside the discussion of the processing for a moment, I think that is a great composition, Sam. Well seen.

Thanks Greg! I appreciate it.

[Sam W]

Well com[posed and a nice result in b&W

Thanks Raymond, I appreciate your thoughts.

[Sam W]

Sam,

To follow up on your discussion with Manfred and the use of Lightroom: You'll achieve the most control if you use the Tone Curve panel and select the Linear mode within that panel. Then drag the various parts of the curve to suit your needs, placing whatever anchors are required in the curve to construct the curve that again meets your needs. Doing so affects the tone curve of the entire image.

Unfortunately, it's not possible to use the same method of manipulation when adjusting the tone curve of a selected area of the scene. To make that happen, you have to use an Adjustment Brush and the tone curve graph is not available when using the brush. You can make the same adjustments as you would make using a tone curve graphical interface instead using a combination of sliders available when using the brush. The difference is that those sliders provide indirect rather than direct control of the curve. I really do hope that someday Adobe decides to make it possible to adjust the tone curve graphical interface selectively rather than only globally.

Thanks Mike - I've been trying practicing your suggestions this morning...will be applying those techniques as I go forward. Looks like I will not have many excuses for my future B&W photos from all the help received so far.

[Dave Humphries]

(starting from considerable mid-tone contrast then trying to stretch it out to deep blacks and bright whites)

That actually depends on what you consider to be your starting point. I would not characterize your color image as having considerable mid-tone contrast. Just the opposite, it has less than the normal contrast to my way of thinking.

I think I can see what Sam meant here; that there were lots of pixels (on the histogram) clumped in the middle, which he endeavoured to stretch to either end.

Sam - Contrast is defined by the width of the 'hills' of pixels in histogram, not the height of the 'hills'.

Having a lot of pixels in the middle really just means there are a lot of mid-tones in the image, it doesn't define their contrast - at least, not in a 'typical' picture - although I can see that you might be able to view the histogram of a special test chart and be able to correctly draw such a conclusion.

Hope that helps, Dave

[Mike Buckley]

Having a lot of pixels in the middle really just means there are a lot of mid-tones in the image, it doesn't define their contrast

To follow up on that and previous discussions of the tone curve: When using a curve tool that allows you to manually adjust the tone curve using a graphical interface, the parts of the adjusted curve that tend to be closer to horizontal are the tonal ranges displaying less contrast than before the adjustment was made. Conversely, the parts that tend to be closer to vertical are the tonal ranges displaying more contrast. That explains why the classic S-curve adjustment to the tone curve increases mid-tone contrast; once the left side of the curve is lowered a bit and the right side is raised a bit to somewhat resemble the look of an "S," the middle part of the curve depicting the mid tones becomes more vertical, thus increasing the mid-tone contrast.

Note that it's not possible to increase the contrast in any part of the curve without also decreasing the contrast in at least one other area of the curve and vice versa.

[Geoff F]

The 'old method' for creating monochrome from colour, Sam, relied on Adjustment Layers to add effect to the image. But not really suitable if you don't have the ability to use layers.

However, the method was to create a stack of layers before starting any editing. Begin with the background layer and add a Hue/Saturation Layer. In fact you could add more than one, like one for Red, Green and Blue if you wanted. Finish with a normal Curves Layer and a Monochrome Layer on the top.

Change the hue sliders as required to add greater or less tone depth to the final scene (by tweaking the original image colours) and the normal Curves Layer to adjust overall brightness. Because everything was done with Adjustment Layers you could keep going back to make extra tweaks until you finally got exactly what you desired.

Most modern software now has a simple slider box which can make those colour changes without having to physically produce those stacked layers. And intermediate colours are simpler to tweak now; although the system does still require a bit of careful thought.

[Sam W]

I agree, and thanks for the correction.

[Sam W]

I think I can see what Sam meant here; that there were lots of pixels (on the histogram) clumped in the middle, which he endeavoured to stretch to either end.

Sam - Contrast is defined by the width of the 'hills' of pixels in histogram, not the height of the 'hills'.

Having a lot of pixels in the middle really just means there are a lot of mid-tones in the image, it doesn't define their contrast - at least, not in a 'typical' picture - although I can see that you might be able to view the histogram of a special test chart and be able to correctly draw such a conclusion.

Hope that helps, Dave

Thanks Dave that helps, also you were correct with what I was trying to do. - Sam

[Sam W]

That actually depends on what you consider to be your starting point. I would not characterize your color image as having considerable mid-tone contrast. Just the opposite, it has less than the normal contrast to my way of thinking.

Thanks Mike I agree, thanks for the correction/clarification.

[Sam W]

Thanks Geoff, this is very interesting and informative.

[Sam W]

Hi All, I returned to the mill looking for another shot to apply the helpful information received in this thread to a new photo. I chose an indoor shot this time. The light above the gear wheel is florescent and the light coming from the window is natural mid-morning light with an overcast sky. The single image was taken @ 8sec, F/18, 100-ISO.

I think the first color photo, is interesting and informative but perhaps not so artistic being a little "busy". I converted it to BW using LR (second image) and cropped it to form the third image. I think the third image is less busy and more artistic. I used LR for the PP sharping using the high setting.

Any C&C, suggestions or identification of flaws would be appreciated. Thanks in advance

Single image 8sec, F/18, 100ISO


Converted to BW using only LightRoom:


Final Crop and fine tuning using LR

[Shadowman]

Nice efforts.

[Manfred M]

Sam - I personally prefer the coloured version. You seem to have lost a lot of subtlety that is in the original when you converted.

I suspect that the closeup might also look stronger as a colour rather than mononchrome image.

[Sam W]

Nice efforts.

Thanks John.

[Sam W]

Sam - I personally prefer the coloured version. You seem to have lost a lot of subtlety that is in the original when you converted.

I suspect that the closeup might also look stronger as a colour rather than mononchrome image.

Thanks Manfred, that's what I needed to know.

[Dave Humphries]

Now that's what I call "agricultural engineering"
(think about it, compared to if other materials had been used, shoddily or not)


Hi Sam,

Hmmm (I'm contemplating Manfred's thoughts).

For me; this image is about the textures and I can actually see more of those (esp. on the 'beam behind') in the mono version - where it's not hidden by the blue cast caused by the CT (colour temperature) differences.

Although I agree, this has cost some losses in the shadow areas. So I think a mono might work, with another conversion and attention to getting as much from both the lit and shadow areas.

I'm certainly not very practically experienced in this, but thinking about it and looking at the original and its lack of useful colour there, I'd say a straight 'desaturate' conversion, followed by careful manipulation of Curves will be needed to extract the kind of result I have in mind.

The tighter crop is a valid image in its own right, but I am so glad to have also seen the wider view for context.

Cheers, Dave

[Mike Buckley]

The last image (the monochrome cropped image) is by far the most appealing to me. As in almost all conversions, some attributes are better than the color version and some are worse. Even so, on balance most attributes in this particular monochrome are better for me.