Izzie's P 52 month of February -- for C&C please

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Originally Posted by NorthernFocus

Hi, Izzie. You are improving your ability to isolate your subject in a "busy" environment compared to some of the farm shots you posted a while back. I like the perspectives in nos.5 and 6. Nice choices for B/W conversions too. I definitely see progress in your work.

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Thank you very much, Dan...I learn by observing some postings here at CiC. It always help. Also in response to the comments you give to others and some members here that are so straight forward to tell me off if my shots needed some improvement or corrections. I do appreciate your nice comment here. Coming from you, it is indeed a pleasure to receive approval. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Wavelength

Terrific images...i liked every thing about them.... please continue this nice series..... :)

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Thank you for the encouragement Nandakumar...I do appreciate it very much. I cannot upload any more in this series but will do so in some separate post. This trip was a last minute ditch because it is the end of the first week of February. I need to move on to Week 2 soon...I am thinking of macro...

'Appreciate your comments. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by purplehaze

All great subjects, Izzie. Love the tunnel shot in particular and appreciate all the background info. My two vintage-car-collecting BILs will be particularly interested in the car shots.

I see you were really pushing your shutter speeds in the museum. You got impressive focus for 1/15 sec. in #1, but I am guessing the camera was resting on a rail? Some of the other museum shots appear to suffer from camera shake. I think using flash would have been problematic due to all the reflective surfaces and might well not be allowed in the museum. Do you use auto ISO? I would suggest you find your minimum shutter speed for each of your lenses and stick to them when shooting handheld. If you have a maximum ISO you don't want to exceed, set that in your camera settings as well. With your camera on Auto ISO and an upper threshold set, if you need to compromise on aperture, the camera will tell you so. If the museum allows, you might consider taking a monopod in next time. Or practice the techniques described here. I posted that link on this forum some time ago, but it may be new to some people.

Good to see you shooting again. :) Hope you are taking it easy and not pushing it. That is heavy kit you are carrying.

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Not really heavy...I should have brought one more lens but I thought, museum, minimum space? That means my 12-24mm; for longer reach, the 70-300mm will be good. So only two lenses in my little bag that can only accommodate a camera and an extra lens. I did not bring my backpack as I do not want to push my pain because I am healing well so far.

The two top vintage cars were shot from a railing upstairs so they are pretty good. And the automobile I had used the display cabinet that was in between the DiDia and the automobile. The rest were all handheld and no support. Oh, I got down from under the fence and sat down on the gravel for that tunnel shot so I have my knee to support me there...

Flash is allowed everywhere there but as I had already explained, I need to balance my aperture and shutter speed and if applicable upped or down my EC (which I did not have to use. On majority of my shots, even outside I used ISO 200 and there was a time when changing my ISO that I accidentally used auto ISO. When I noticed, I went back to ISO 200, at least...unless it was really dark like in between trains where it was dark, I upped my ISO to 1200. I think I have got the hang of the ISO bit. What I forgot was to turn off my delay from the menu...because I forgot where it was at the time...

In a museum atmosphere it will be a little bit tacky to bring a monopod (which I do not have) or a tripod as there are more children around running like blazes especially around trains and going up and down to see and experience riding in them. There are only two areas where the roads are really wide and that was one of them that I entitled 'Perspective'...the rest of the areas are dark and narrow in between.

Thank you so much for commenting and the suggestions and the critiques. I really, really appreciate it very much...Off to bed now. Goodnight...

Izzie, great pics under what was likely challenging conditions. My favorites are #2 & #4.
#2 is really cool, I just like the shot. And the suicide doors.
#4 is also cool, you shot it in a way that makes it look like a model/toy car.
I would love to see more shots of interiors, especially #1, never heard of that car. As for Bobby Darin, I believe his Somewhere Beyond The Sea plays as credits role at the end of Finding Nemo (yup, one of my fav movies).
#6 I'd live to see that in B&W, just because.
Glad you out and about with your grownup camera ;-)

As others have said, these are all good images taken under challenging circumstances. You have really improved and I am happy to see you putting all your research and reading into practice :D

Hi Izzie.....I have not followed this thread from the beginning.....just now I found it, and had a look, and also did some reading, and I will been on a lookout for this thread from now on..........

What I have seen so far, I like it very much......please keep going.......

Greetings,
Griddi........

Hi Isabel, I enjoyed watching your images and I will come back to this thread to read everything properly as I have to log off to do things now :)

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Originally Posted by flashback

Izzie, great pics under what was likely challenging conditions. My favorites are #2 & #4.
#2 is really cool, I just like the shot. And the suicide doors.
#4 is also cool, you shot it in a way that makes it look like a model/toy car.
I would love to see more shots of interiors, especially #1, never heard of that car. As for Bobby Darin, I believe his Somewhere Beyond The Sea plays as credits role at the end of Finding Nemo (yup, one of my fav movies).
#6 I'd live to see that in B&W, just because.
Glad you out and about with your grownup camera ;-)

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Whoops! I clicked on Submit Reply instead of Advanced...oh welll...
Sorry, I did not get to go up the stairs of either the trains nor automobiles and the cars. The cars were cordoned off, the trains are full go to inspect but my arm is still off. Besides people are everywhere with kids. I trying to move a stroller that was in my way and the owner (father) was coming down the steps. He said it is OK, but I ran out of steam, I just moved on. I didn't know that Bill had engaged the father's dad into a conversation about the wheels of that train and the guy joined in while waiting for his wife and kids and a baby who were still up there.

I like that term 'grown-up camera'...cute. I'll borrow this term, OK?

Thanks for passing by Jack...suicide doors was the longest I have to wait to get rid of those hangers on in front of that car...I think Bill was falling asleep by the time I finished. :D

Here's to your request...
I did a mono with adding Sepia 14 to it. Hope you like it...

http://i68.tinypic.com/dy2cg5.jpg

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Originally Posted by ShaneS

As others have said, these are all good images taken under challenging circumstances. You have really improved and I am happy to see you putting all your research and reading into practice :D

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Thank you, Shane. I appreciate your nice comments. I think this is the first time ever that I have uploaded something where I do not have to do any edits...must be my lucky week. I'll buy a lotto ticket for that...:p 'Appreciate your valuable comments.

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Originally Posted by just me

Hi Izzie.....I have not followed this thread from the beginning.....just now I found it, and had a look, and also did some reading, and I will been on a lookout for this thread from now on..........

What I have seen so far, I like it very much......please keep going.......

Greetings,
Griddi........

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Griddi -- I had decided to make my project by the month instead of by the quarter. I had finished with my January theme which was the flood and snow and the aftermath of it. I have separated this one as another post so it will be a little bit shorter than the quarterly ones. Also I always start my first post with no more than 9 images with commentaries...it peters out as I go along. The rest of my image shots on this same week will be in another separate post so I do not overload my audience.

Thank you for your encouraging comment. I shall be forever grateful if you will follow this month and the rest for the year if you can..

Cheers...Izzie

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Originally Posted by bnnrcn

Hi Isabel, I enjoyed watching your images and I will come back to this thread to read everything properly as I have to log off to do things now :)

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Thanks Binnur...I missed your and Dave's critiques. You say them in a nicer way while Dave slams me to the floor.:D..but I learned and enjoyed the interaction. Hope to see you back here ...

Back to bed for me before Bill drag me out of here...G'night...

Hi Izzie,

Apologies for getting this done later than I promised above.

I had a couple of false starts; I read the background info on the first few and got side tracked :o
then I had to avoid reading other's feedback (today) so it doesn't 'stop me thinking' about each as I view them

So, taking these as documentary shots of the exhibits in the museum, here are my thoughts, with apologies to others if I don't acknowledge what they have already mentioned. The only distraction now is some great music playing which will have my fingers drumming the desk instead of typing ;)

If I don't mention something, it is because you have done as well as I feel I could, even with hindsight.

You are obviously severely limited by the placement of the subject within the building and external factors such as lighting at the time of your visit, not to mention trying to exclude those pesky other visitors :)

I would love to have access to these exhibits 'without the ropes' to get a series of shots on each exhibit, bet you do too.


#1 You have a good view of the vehicle here which demonstrates several of the unusual characteristics of the 1960 DiDia 150.

With the benefit of hindsight, it is easy for me to suggest that we could probably have seen more of the glorious paint if this had been shot with a polarising filter. From this elevated viewpoint, having that set to reduce reflections off the horizontal surfaces of the bonnet, roof and boot lid (hood, roof and trunk in US speak?) would have helped a lot, but the best solution might have been to shoot a few shots with the CPL set at different angles and combine in PP. The CPL would also have an effect on other horizontal surfaces such as the polished floor and table top/display case.

However, eliminating all reflections totally would (I think) be a mistake, since it may look 'false' in the context of the surroundings. I also accept that the use of a polariser would have extended shutter speeds to the point where a mono/tripod would have been necessary and that may not be possible under the rules of the establishment, let alone the weight issue for you carrying it - given your wayward 'mule' :D

At the risk of upsetting the continuity of this series (e.g. if this were a standalone image), you could consider cropping some, (say 10% image width), off the left hand side.

Ooops, I'm rambling too much, I'll try to be more concise.

#2 Same thought applies regarding use of CPL with the 1963 Lincoln Continental. The second most obvious thought here is the apparent white balance issue caused by the mixed lighting - unless it really is that purplish colour.

#3 "St. Louis BUILT":
This looks to have been captured somewhat over exposed, which is a shame as you didn't need all that 1/3s, which has caused a camera shake issue. I can see that your choice of shooting position was dictated by the post for the rope barriers, amongst many other factors, so under these circumstances, I think you chose the viewpoint wisely. If that had not been there, you could have take a shuffle to the right and excluded the background, although that would have compromised how the right front wheel overlapped the background panels. If mine, I might also have corrected the leaning verticals of background elements. Ooops, I'm rambling again.

#4 Huppmobile:
This shot has several issues and is the worst of the series so, if I'm gonna be "harsh", this is the one (and I know you love it really).
It is over exposed.
It is blurred due to vertical movement camera shake (70mm at 1/10s), but also there's something funky going on down by the automobile's left front wheel, looks like a slipped mask. The shot also has a strange 3D, 'jump off the screen' effect caused by the crude application of artificial DoF blur, I'm afraid this doesn't work for me.

#5 Tunnel:
I think this is also slightly over exposed Izzie. Pretty good viewpoint, spoiled by the rails not running all the way to the distant truck, but I can't blame you for that :D and you did a pretty good job of trying to line them up with your shooting position and height.

That said, I'm not sure the out of focus bar across the top aids the composition, if you play in LyteBox and move it off the top of the monitor screen, I think the image is improved.

#6 Your 'perspective shot':
This works quite well, if mine, and if I weren't worrying about inconsistencies of aspect ratio across the series, I'd crop that sunlit area of foreground tarmac off the lower edge. The next most obvious ting I might do is clone remove the orange road cone. If I'm really being pedantic, I'd ask what caused the funny sky smudge effect above the roof of "USATC 1149" on the left? Taking padantry one step further: it looks like there is some uncorrected lateral CA which is most visible on the white wheel rims and lettering at the left edge off frame.

#7 US 662:
I like this one, the crop is tight, but no doubt necessary to avoid worse issues we cannot see, but I trust you that this is better than the alternative. Odd choice of shutter speed and ISO though ;)

#8 Stage Coach style:
An interesting exhibit, the most significant comment is that I think the black point needs setting - it all looks a bit too 'grey', if doing that causes the left most post to appear too black, you could crop it off.

#9 Barrett Station:
Of interest for context for how US museums operate and interact with visitors (did you ring that big bell?). Can't think of anything to suggest to improve it. I was disappointed I couldn't see your reflection :D

I hope that shot-by-shot is helpful, now I'll see what others said and if I missed anything important.

I can see that you have put some thought in to your shooting position for these, so bear in mind I appreciate that when I criticise small errors - these are more than just the snaps that even I take when I visit such places.

Well done, Dave

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Originally Posted by IzzieK

Thanks Binnur...I missed your and Dave's critiques. You say them in a nicer way while Dave slams me to the floor.:D..but I learned and enjoyed the interaction. Hope to see you back here ...

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Hmmm, seems I was slaving over my long, detailed reply while you were being rude :D about me!

Then we posted just two minutes apart and you got dragged off to sleep.

Sweet dreams - before you see my 'slam down' this week :D

:D:D You made me laugh Isabel. But after reading Dave's post I laughed more because while he was trying to help you by writing his long post you were complaining about him. This situation actually looks like some comic scenes in Woody Allen films :D

I just want to say I find 1,6,7 and 8 better in the set. If possible, cloning the tree and the leaves might work fine in #1. I love the BnW conversion of #6, I really like that shot. #7 and #8 are a bit tight crops but may be this was what you could do best.I like the conversions of them too. #8 looks a bit washed out , I would try reducing the hightlights a bit to see how it works.I actually like the pale look of the image as it suits the subject but if you are after a more contrasty look then I think Dave's suggestion works best for that.

Your subjects are beautiful in #3 and #4 but unfortunatelly the images don't work very well for the reasons Dave have already mentioned.

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Originally Posted by IzzieK

Thanks Binnur...I missed your and Dave's critiques. You say them in a nicer way while Dave slams me to the floor.:D..but I learned and enjoyed the interaction. Hope to see you back here ...

Back to bed for me before Bill drag me out of here...G'night...

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Originally Posted by bnnrcn

:D:D You made me laugh Isabel. But after reading Dave's post I laughed more because while he was trying to help you by writing his long post you were complaining about him. This situation actually looks like some comic scenes in Woody Allen films :D

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Sorry but it wasn't a complain...I thought I was comparing your critique response to his. Both are said in a good way in my opinion as I learned from both of you very well by the way you both critique my shots. In fact I love it...

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I just want to say I find 1,6,7 and 8 better in the set. If possible, cloning the tree and the leaves might work fine in #1.

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Oh yes I thought so too but I left them there because there are so many of them around the place especially on each of the cars there. I think it is a way of not bumping some parts of the car when the cleaner comes around or something...like here in my house when I am charging my camera battery in the kitchen, I move the rubbish bin near the bench so no one will bump it when thoughtless two legged ones open the fridge...:p

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I love the BnW conversion of #6, I really like that shot.

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I am glad Jack asked for it. I think it is not bad at all...

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#7 and #8 are a bit tight crops but may be this was what you could do best.I like the conversions of them too. #8 looks a bit washed out , I would try reducing the hightlights a bit to see how it works.I actually like the pale look of the image as it suits the subject but if you are after a more contrasty look then I think Dave's suggestion works best for that.

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I tried Dave's suggestion there even before I uploaded my post and it looks too dark, almost like sillouette because I was fighting with the light there and I do not want to use any fill in lights this time around so I did not bring my flash. I am studying the light in this experiment and I do not want to stray away from my light study.

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Your subjects are beautiful in #3 and #4 but unfortunately the images don't work very well for the reasons Dave have already mentioned.

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A little bit more and it will collapse on its a$$ you mean...:D that was my thought...Jack likes it. :p

Thanks Binnur. I really appreciate your critique. I will do better next time as no one criticized my use of my UWA. I was waiting for Dave to tell me I still haven't got it, but apparently he will disappoint me this time around as I have been thinking of what he will say when I was using that lens and also when I was doing the pp on those ones I used the lens on. Thank you again for your valuable tips and suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Hmmm, seems I was slaving over my long, detailed reply while you were being rude :D about me!

Then we posted just two minutes apart and you got dragged off to sleep.

Sweet dreams - before you see my 'slam down' this week :D

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You and Binnur misunderstood my comparison...I should have said I like them both or I thought I did. Going back to my post on that, I am sorry I did not say it...but I do, believe it or not because if not for you, I wouldn't have learned how to operate that silly UWA that I have. I like the way you correct me and insists on my mistakes as mistake. You tell it like it is and that is good. Some people may not, but I do. Honest!!!

Friends again???...
Izzie

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Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Hi Izzie,

Apologies for getting this done later than I promised above.

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It's OK...we all have things to do besides...

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I had a couple of false starts; I read the background info on the first few and got side tracked :o
then I had to avoid reading other's feedback (today) so it doesn't 'stop me thinking' about each as I view them

So, taking these as documentary shots of the exhibits in the museum, here are my thoughts, with apologies to others if I don't acknowledge what they have already mentioned. The only distraction now is some great music playing which will have my fingers drumming the desk instead of typing ;)

If I don't mention something, it is because you have done as well as I feel I could, even with hindsight.

You are obviously severely limited by the placement of the subject within the building and external factors such as lighting at the time of your visit, not to mention trying to exclude those pesky other visitors :)

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The cars part of the museum is just a small building where they have an old hearse, some odd bicycle, etc. and they are almost side by side separated in middle with ropes and stuffs, and plenty of walkabout tourists like us with children and babies.

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I would love to have access to these exhibits 'without the ropes' to get a series of shots on each exhibit, bet you do too.


#1 You have a good view of the vehicle here which demonstrates several of the unusual characteristics of the 1960 DiDia 150.

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I was upstairs so it was a good view but it was quite a wait to take the shots because of people milling around.

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With the benefit of hindsight, it is easy for me to suggest that we could probably have seen more of the glorious paint if this had been shot with a polarising filter. From this elevated viewpoint, having that set to reduce reflections off the horizontal surfaces of the bonnet, roof and boot lid (hood, roof and trunk in US speak?) would have helped a lot, but the best solution might have been to shoot a few shots with the CPL set at different angles and combine in PP. The CPL would also have an effect on other horizontal surfaces such as the polished floor and table top/display case.

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You will not believe this--I was kicking myself in the dark areas of the car museum when I realized I was having a hard time with my exposure triangle thingie because I have the CPL in front of the lens. I think I will have to start using my rectangular one. I have both Cokin and Lee from the old film days. With the round CPL it is always a habit to forget it is there...and to think that I just bought myself a variable ND...dumb, huh?

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However, eliminating all reflections totally would (I think) be a mistake, since it may look 'false' in the context of the surroundings. I also accept that the use of a polariser would have extended shutter speeds to the point where a mono/tripod would have been necessary and that may not be possible under the rules of the establishment, let alone the weight issue for you carrying it - given your wayward 'mule' :D

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My beloved mule is tolerating me so he is OK. I cannot bring my tripod yet, even the lightest travel one I have. I have to leave my handbag in the car so I do not to bring it or ask my mule to. The camera is enough weight for my healing chest. My armpit is OK so far, I just do not want to abuse it as I have my appointment with my surgeon on this coming 16th February...

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At the risk of upsetting the continuity of this series (e.g. if this were a standalone image), you could consider cropping some, (say 10% image width), off the left hand side.

Ooops, I'm rambling too much, I'll try to be more concise.

#2 Same thought applies regarding use of CPL with the 1963 Lincoln Continental. The second most obvious thought here is the apparent white balance issue caused by the mixed lighting - unless it really is that purplish colour.

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I tried and I tried to remove the bluish/purplish tint to make it white because it is really a white car. I still couldn't get it so I left it as is...I will have to try harder some more...

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#3 "St. Louis BUILT":
This looks to have been captured somewhat over exposed, which is a shame as you didn't need all that 1/3s, which has caused a camera shake issue. I can see that your choice of shooting position was dictated by the post for the rope barriers, amongst many other factors, so under these circumstances, I think you chose the viewpoint wisely. If that had not been there, you could have take a shuffle to the right and excluded the background, although that would have compromised how the right front wheel overlapped the background panels. If mine, I might also have corrected the leaning verticals of background elements. Ooops, I'm rambling again.

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I forgot to do that ... I will try harder to correct that. I only noticed after I uploaded the darn thing!

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#4 Huppmobile:
This shot has several issues and is the worst of the series so, if I'm gonna be "harsh", this is the one (and I know you love it really).
It is over exposed.
It is blurred due to vertical movement camera shake (70mm at 1/10s), but also there's something funky going on down by the automobile's left front wheel, looks like a slipped mask. The shot also has a strange 3D, 'jump off the screen' effect caused by the crude application of artificial DoF blur, I'm afraid this doesn't work for me.

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I am not happy with my pp on this one...but Jack like it. I was quite surprised he did or someone did. I understand that you will see this one and call me out on that...I will have to try this one too along with #3.

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#5 Tunnel:
I think this is also slightly over exposed Izzie. Pretty good viewpoint, spoiled by the rails not running all the way to the distant truck, but I can't blame you for that :D and you did a pretty good job of trying to line them up with your shooting position and height.

That said, I'm not sure the out of focus bar across the top aids the composition, if you play in LyteBox and move it off the top of the monitor screen, I think the image is improved.

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I tried it without the bar but left the bar because I want to remember how hard I was sitting down on my ass on the rubbles there and the mark of wet on my jeans like I wet myself. Bill was laughing hard when I stood up so from then on, I tried to keep away from where there are people before they noticed. I like it the way it is now. I was expecting that you will say it is crooked or something...

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#6 Your 'perspective shot':
This works quite well, if mine, and if I weren't worrying about inconsistencies of aspect ratio across the series, I'd crop that sunlit area of foreground tarmac off the lower edge. The next most obvious thing I might do is clone remove the orange road cone. If I'm really being pedantic, I'd ask what caused the funny sky smudge effect above the roof of "USATC 1149" on the left? Taking padantry one step further: it looks like there is some uncorrected lateral CA which is most visible on the white wheel rims and lettering at the left edge off frame.

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I did not notice that until you mentioned it. I must correct that. I was more worried about the bleakness of the sky that I put that graduated filter from Nik's. You see in message #28 in my response to Jack, it isn't there...so I am thinking that must be a spill on from the filter effect. I will try to look again...

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#7 US 662:
I like this one, the crop is tight, but no doubt necessary to avoid worse issues we cannot see, but I trust you that this is better than the alternative. Odd choice of shutter speed and ISO though ;)

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This must be because I still have my unnoticed CPL on my lens...I have to remove those things from my lens so I don't make a mistake again. I had been struggling with my exposure triangle because of that. I need a lot of checking and a list on what to check before I even start going out of the house.

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#8 Stage Coach style:
An interesting exhibit, the most significant comment is that I think the black point needs setting - it all looks a bit too 'grey', if doing that causes the left most post to appear too black, you could crop it off.

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I had explained this one in my response to Binnur already.

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#9 Barrett Station:
Of interest for context for how US museums operate and interact with visitors (did you ring that big bell?). Can't think of anything to suggest to improve it. I was disappointed I couldn't see your reflection :D

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There was a kid before me who did and as I was struggling with my camera, I missed that shot of him ringing that bell.

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I hope that shot-by-shot is helpful, now I'll see what others said and if I missed anything important.

I can see that you have put some thought in to your shooting position for these, so bear in mind I appreciate that when I criticise small errors - these are more than just the snaps that even I take when I visit such places.

Well done, Dave

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Oh...that is very, very nice, Dave...Yes, your critique is always helpful that is why I said I missed your looking at my shots...and also Binnur...your are both wise but different in so many ways. I truly appreciate this very much...I will look into these corrections you have suggested tomorrow. It was because of you that I challenged myself to get my "adult camera" on that day despite what pain I still feel. And yesterday, I shot some for my Week 2 February and again some for today...seeing that we will stranded here at home with that snow on the ground and those little flakes still falling until Thursday...Thank you so much again and again for your help.
Izzie

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Originally Posted by IzzieK

You and Binnur misunderstood my comparison...I should have said I like them both or I thought I did. Going back to my post on that, I am sorry I did not say it...but I do, believe it or not because if not for you, I wouldn't have learned how to operate that silly UWA that I have. I like the way you correct me and insists on my mistakes as mistake. You tell it like it is and that is good. Some people may not, but I do. Honest!!!

Friends again???...
Izzie

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Izzie,

At no point in this thread have I ever remotely thought of you as not a friend.

I was 'pulling your leg', I hoped the smilies would show that and it should be me that apologises if you think we have fallen out - we haven't.

I don't think Binnur seriously thought it either.

Now I'll read the post where you reply to my points one-by-one - I just wanted to get this to you soonest.

More later, Dave

Hi again Izzie,

Having read your responses, the major thing to take away is to be a little more organised with regard to lens filters and exposure, but we all mess that up from time to time - now doubt you were distracted by constantly wondering whether you were 'doing too much' for your healing.

However, as I said, you managed good shooting positions this time, so next time you'll hopefully manage that and the use and rotation of the CPL, alongside good choices of ISO appropriate for the conditions.

If I had a pound/dollar for every time I'd gone outside and continued shooting with the high ISO I'd set while previously shooting indoors, I'd be a rich man, so don't be hard on yourself.

I still think that the black point on #8 could be set better without turning the whole shot to a silhouette.

I didn't specifically discuss the UWA because the focal lengths you used above (24mm and 70mm) just don't fall in to that range, but I didn't 'complain' because I can see that the limited shooting possibilities; with the ropes and surrounding exhibits, would not have lent themselves the use of wider angles of view.

As said in post #3; you'd actually have found a 24-70mm more useful and while I joked about it then, having now analysed the shots, it seriously would have helped you I suspect.

Cheers, Dave

Thanks Dave...I am looking into it...maybe after I get back from Tennessee on Monday or after I get back from Australia in March. But since (I think) I am getting the hang of it (the 12-24) I am happy...might use in in Tennessee this week. (Or not...) But I have been practicing on my adult camera more shooting each day of different stuffs I will be submitting for Week #2 of this month...you have been very encouraging and I appreciate that. Thank you so much for all your help so far and beyond...