Lightroom Plugin - Nik Collection or On1 Can it Help these photos?

[TheBigE]

Hello,

Been out for a bit travelling and so forth, just catching up on a few things. Recently, I just returned from Bastogne Belgium and saw the Bastogne War Mueseum and a few other sites in the area.

As usually happens the day was lackluster in terms of lighting - Dark Cloudy Skies and so forth. I tried to do my best to find interesting perspectives and angles outside, and working through high ISO situation inside the actual Museum.

In culling through my photos, I am seeing some that composition wise look good, but really lack some emphasis. I was thinking of trying an external photo suite/plugin in Lightroom - Either Nik Collection or On1 photo suite.

I have done some research and will likely give a trial a test on both programs. However, there are few points that I have concluded by going into this...

- I do not want to leave LR, I only want an interface within LR. I would like to start and finish in LR.
- In general I will jump over to PS for removing items in the photo, and playing around with Masks.
- I am reasonably comfortable with PS. I realize that many of these effects for these collections could be done in PS, but my problem is that I am not really sure "what" I want. I am confident that if I knew where I was going I could find my way...problem is I am not sure where I am going.
- I really struggle in using the adjustment brush in LR, and just cannot seem to achieve the impact I am looking for in these situations. In the photos below I might be able to use Adjustment brush in LR to help improve the photo, but my recent track record has not been successful.

Here are a few shots I am thinking might be improved using one of these suites. I could be wrong here, the lighting was not optimal and perhaps this cannot be remedied in PP. I welcome any thoughts and feedback you may have in this case.

The first couple, I was trying to get a feel for what it was like on the ground during the Battle of the Bulge. Yes no snow, but hoping to get a feel for lying there and really not knowing what is out there...

On the ground in Bastogne








The actual Memorial - some photos from different angles around the memorial.




Here is a few from the American Cemetery in Luxembourg




High ISO taken into B&W




Perhaps these above were lost when the shutter button was pressed...that also is welcome feedback.

If anyone would like to see larger version, let me know. I left them at Medium as I knew I was going to post several photos.

Thanks.
Erik

[Shadowman]

Not sure about On1 but NIK allows you to jump back and forth or use as a standalone program. NIK could definitely help with these images but then so could quite a few others. Also, I know you can interface between PS and LR.

[mastamak]

You can edit in Photoshop, OnOne and Nik directly from Lightroom and at completion of the edit your image is returned to the Lightroom catalogue. Or you can go from Lightroom to Photoshop, edit as required then move on to either OnOne or NIK and then back to Lightroom. I have an ongoing problem with OnOne that is related to an OnOne catalogue file that sometimes will not close when OnOne is exited. I understand they are working on this issue but in the meantime I get around it quite easily by starting OnOne before moving an image from Lightroom to OnOne. This workaround, which I discovered after some frustrating hours is quite satisfactory.

I am very jealous, Erik, of your visit to Bastogne. The campaign there was brilliantly documented in the Spielberg/Hanks miniseries "Band of Brothers" from the point of view of the Easy company of the 101st airborne. Well worth watching if you haven't already done so.
Grant

[mastamak]

Also, for a brilliant account of both sides in the Battle of the Bulge see Antony Beevors latest book - Ardennes 1944.
Grant

[RList]

Hi Erik,
Nik collection as well as LR and PS or any other similar program have their slight variations and you should basically find out which one suits you the best.
That depends of your style and story you wish to convey. Any of these programs can do wonders but try to train yourself to see a scene you are taking how you wish it to appear on the end. Once you clear up your mind than you make a mental note LR/PS for that corner and NC for that part.
Just make honest photos that reflect your mind and you are good to go.

[NorthernFocus]

If you already have PS, then either On1 or Nik are redundant. On1 uses similar tools/interface as LR/PS. Nik uses a different, proprietary method of masking that some is in some ways much different than "brushes". Honestly IMO you should simply learn to use PS. The masking tools are similar but combined with layers are much more powerful and useful than those in LR. Once you begin to use masking in any other program it is highly likely you will abandon the primitive tools in LR and use it simply for cataloging and RAW conversion with basic lighting/color adjustments.

[DanK]

Erik,

I think you are putting the cart before the horse, if you will pardon the US idiom.

These packages are all complex, with many functions. These functions overlap considerably. For example, the effects of the Lightroom clarity slider are somewhat similar to Nik's structure adjustment or a local contrast adjustment with USM in photoshop.

So, the first question is not 'which of these programs will make the image look better,' but rather, 'what do you want to change in the image?' For example you wrote:

Here are a few shots I am thinking might be improved using one of these suites. I could be wrong here, the lighting was not optimal and perhaps this cannot be remedied in PP.

What do you want to do to make them look better? For example, are you thinking about global increases in contrast? Increases in vibrance or saturation? Increases in clarity or structure? Local adjustments of one of these, or of something else? All of these can be done, albeit in different ways, with LR, PS, or Nik.

The second question is how to accomplish that. In some cases, one only one package will do what you want, or one will do it in a way that is easier for you. However, in many cases, you will be able to chose among them to accomplish similar things.

BTW, I don't use OnOne, but both Nik and PS will return a TIF file to Lightroom, so your editing is interrupted: you can't go back to the LR adjustments without then sending a new copy to the second software package.

Dan

[NorthernFocus]

...I don't use OnOne, but both Nik and PS will return a TIF file to Lightroom, so your editing is interrupted: you can't go back to the LR adjustments without then sending a new copy to the second software package...

On1 does the same though I believe you can configure it to use either TIF or PSD files. And in all cases once back in LR you can do additional "non-destructive" adjustments to the TIF/PSD output from the plug-ins if desired.

[Manfred M]

If you already have PS, then either On1 or Nik are redundant. On1 uses similar tools/interface as LR/PS. Nik uses a different, proprietary method of masking that some is in some ways much different than "brushes". Honestly IMO you should simply learn to use PS. The masking tools are similar but combined with layers are much more powerful and useful than those in LR. Once you begin to use masking in any other program it is highly likely you will abandon the primitive tools in LR and use it simply for cataloging and RAW conversion with basic lighting/color adjustments.

Dan - I might partially agree with you as some of the functionality in On1 and Nik can be duplicated in Photoshop (and to a much lesser extent in Lightroom); gradients, vignettes, etc. On the other hand I have not been able to duplicate effects like the Nik Pro Contrast, Tonal Contrast, Detail Extractor, etc, filters.

[TheBigE]

You can edit in Photoshop, OnOne and Nik directly from Lightroom and at completion of the edit your image is returned to the Lightroom catalogue. Or you can go from Lightroom to Photoshop, edit as required then move on to either OnOne or NIK and then back to Lightroom. I have an ongoing problem with OnOne that is related to an OnOne catalogue file that sometimes will not close when OnOne is exited. I understand they are working on this issue but in the meantime I get around it quite easily by starting OnOne before moving an image from Lightroom to OnOne. This workaround, which I discovered after some frustrating hours is quite satisfactory.

I am very jealous, Erik, of your visit to Bastogne. The campaign there was brilliantly documented in the Spielberg/Hanks miniseries "Band of Brothers" from the point of view of the Easy company of the 101st airborne. Well worth watching if you haven't already done so.
Grant

Grant - Thanks for the feedback. I have been playing around a bit with NIK today to get a feel for what can be done. I will say that the trip was enjoyable, but I did not get to explore the area much. It was a "guys" weekend and I was on a tight timeline. In fact I did watch Band of Brothers before the visit just to refresh my history. I really think a day up there just wandering and touring the area would be fantastic. The museum and moment itself however are TOP NOTCH in every way.

Hi Erik,
Nik collection as well as LR and PS or any other similar program have their slight variations and you should basically find out which one suits you the best.
That depends of your style and story you wish to convey. Any of these programs can do wonders but try to train yourself to see a scene you are taking how you wish it to appear on the end. Once you clear up your mind than you make a mental note LR/PS for that corner and NC for that part.
Just make honest photos that reflect your mind and you are good to go.

Yes, in my mind for the images of the ground and looking out, I really wanted to covey the feeling of being there and what it was like looking out...not knowing what was on the horizon, crops of trees etc. Just being surrounded and trying to survive. That was in my mind to start.

If you already have PS, then either On1 or Nik are redundant. On1 uses similar tools/interface as LR/PS. Nik uses a different, proprietary method of masking that some is in some ways much different than "brushes". Honestly IMO you should simply learn to use PS. The masking tools are similar but combined with layers are much more powerful and useful than those in LR. Once you begin to use masking in any other program it is highly likely you will abandon the primitive tools in LR and use it simply for cataloging and RAW conversion with basic lighting/color adjustments.

Dan - thanks for the feedback. Ultimately there is where I would like to be - LR for cataloging and basic adjustments. I agree that PS is the end solution, but at times the shear width of the options is overwhelming and for me the "titles" are non-intuitive (Gaussian Blur...what is that?) As I said above my struggle is what do I want to do....I am okay figuring out ways to do it, but problem is the actual destination. I was hoping that either Nik or On1 would give the creative inspiration to figure out where I wanted to go and an easy way to get there in the program. Afterwards, with some experience reinvest time into PS to figure out how I can get there in the much more powerful program.

Erik,

I think you are putting the cart before the horse, if you will pardon the US idiom.

These packages are all complex, with many functions. These functions overlap considerably. For example, the effects of the Lightroom clarity slider are somewhat similar to Nik's structure adjustment or a local contrast adjustment with USM in photoshop.

So, the first question is not 'which of these programs will make the image look better,' but rather, 'what do you want to change in the image?' For example you wrote:

What do you want to do to make them look better? For example, are you thinking vibrance or saturation? Increases in clarity or structure? Local adjustments of one of these, or of something else? All of these can be done, albeit in different ways, with LR, PS, or Nik.

The second question is how to accomplish that. In some cases, one only one package will do what you want, or one will do it in a way that is easier for you. However, in many cases, you will be able to chose among them to accomplish similar things.

BTW, I don't use OnOne, but both Nik and PS will return a TIF file to Lightroom, so your editing is interrupted: you can't go back to the LR adjustments without then sending a new copy to the second software package.

Dan

Dan - great input. In just playing around with NIK today, I am starting to understand what it can do and the "collection" of filters it can apply. Yes, certainly this can be done in LR or PS, ultimately that is where I would like to be in the end. I am not crazy about having multiple programs to run through in PP.

You ask me what I see wrong in these photos - well my feeling is that the sky lacks contrast and really offers nothing to the images. It is almost as if it is a white background with no detail. For me looking at these is what I would like to fix. I have played around with Adjustment Brush in LR...too difficult for me. I have looked at mask in PS and just could not get any details out. I was hoping that NIK or On1 would give me a quick run through of what could be done with the photos. I fully realize that most of what can be done, can be done in PS.

I guess that is the genesis of my last statement - maybe this went wrong when the shutter button was pushed.

[TheBigE]

So here is one of the ones I ran through NIK - basically a detail extractor and a contrast only filter.



While it is not perfect (I see some halo effect in there), it is a rough idea of my goal. How would one go about doing this in PS? That would be my next question.

[Manfred M]

Erik - I have owned both the On1 and still own the Nik collection. I did not buy an update to On1 a few years ago because I found I rarely if ever used it. Nik I use all the time, especially the Color Efex Pro. As I recall, you have to use an external user interface to use both programs, and in fact none of the commercial plug-ins that I use (over and above what Nil and On1 do) allow you to stay in either Photoshop or Lightroom. They do dump you out to their software.

Nik's control point technology is interesting as it does sort of emulates masks and you might find it interesting if you want to work only in Nik, but I find it rather limiting for anything other than fairly simple effect application. I find that most of the time I use different applications of filters at different areas of the image and at different points in my edits using more traditional layer masks and clipping masks.

Now when it comes to your images, before you jump to plugings, try the HLS / Monochrome sliders and use the Luminance tab; increase the values of the blues and perhaps the aqua to see if that gives your sky any more definition. WIth Nik I will will use the Color Efex Pro filters; Pro Contrast, Polarizer, Detail Extractor and Tonal Contrast either alone or in combination with each other to coax out details in the sky (assuming they are there). Pro Contrast and Polarizer effects are more subtle and the Tonal Contrast and Detail extractor are heavy duty (they also bring out any sensor dirt really well).

Some of your images look like they may have something in the skies, while others do not. Unfortunately, this is a problem with travel photography as we are stuck with the conditions that are there when we are. That's the easiest (only?) way to get a great image, but you can sometimes get something decent when you work in Post.

[davidedric]

Hi Erik,

I mostly use Lightroom, and jump into pixel editors rarely. As a result, I'm afraid I have never mastered Photoshop because I just don't use it enough.

You've had quite a few comments on Nik. I only use Silver Efex so I can't add to what the other have said. However, a downside to me is that is you go straight from Lightroom to Nik you cannot re-edit you Nik edits, in the sense that the global and control point changes are baked in when you hand the file back to Lightroom. I understand that you can in PS via Smart Objects, but since I can't handle PS....

A difference in On1 is that you can hand a layered PSD directly back to Lightroom, and still re-edit the layers in On1, though that requires Smart Layers, which in turn restricts the tools available.

However, you say in your original post that the difficulty is in knowing where you want to go, and for me that is where On1 scores with its supplied filters and presets (in On1 terminology, a preset is a filter stack - don't know if that's true everywhere).

You also get an instant (variable size) thumbnail of the various options available with each filter and preset. I think that makes it very easy to home in on the sort of effect you are looking for, and of course you have all the sliders in each filter to tune the result.

Dave

[Manfred M]

So here is one of the ones I ran through NIK - basically a detail extractor and a contrast only filter.



While it is not perfect (I see some halo effect in there), it is a rough idea of my goal. How would one go about doing this in PS? That would be my next question.

Erik - the images that you are posting are so small that we really can't see any details to comment. Trying posting images with a dimension of 1600 to 2000 pixels on the longest side, if you want some meaningful feedback.

If you are getting halos, that is a sign of oversharpening. Sharpening works by creating areas of light and dark shades that are adjacent to each other, but you have to be careful in how you control this.

[russellsnr]

Not as much what one better for editing for me but I own both and to be honest I had so many crash or none responsive episodes with OnOne suite 8 I complained and was given a suite 9 upgrade free of charge however I still had problems with the software and even upgraded my Graphics card on there recommendation still had none responses and not just in one module. Thus far have not upgraded to version 10 and tend to use P/S CS6 and NIK partnered to L/R infact OnOne suite is un-installed.
Russ

[Mike Buckley]

my problem is that I am not really sure "what" I want. I am confident that if I knew where I was going I could find my way...problem is I am not sure where I am going.

I was hoping that either Nik or On1 would give the creative inspiration to figure out where I wanted to go

Though I appreciate that all of us learn and progress using different methods, I wonder if you're asking too much of a software program to provide the inspiration you're hoping to receive. Consider regularly viewing the images made by master photographers whose images you admire for that inspiration.

[TheBigE]

Erik - the images that you are posting are so small that we really can't see any details to comment. Trying posting images with a dimension of 1600 to 2000 pixels on the longest side, if you want some meaningful feedback.

If you are getting halos, that is a sign of oversharpening. Sharpening works by creating areas of light and dark shades that are adjacent to each other, but you have to be careful in how you control this.

I bumped them all to X2Large, so they should be better viewable.

[TheBigE]

Though I appreciate that all of us learn and progress using different methods, I wonder if you're asking too much of a software program to provide the inspiration you're hoping to receive. Consider regularly viewing the images made my master photographers whose images you admire for that inspiration.

Mike - That is a fair statement, and I agree that looking for a "plugin" for inspiration is not the best option, but it does provide some inspiration. Looking at master photographers is also helpful, but sometime I find it difficult as they do not have the same "scene" in front of them....I tried googling the area I was in to see if that would give me any inspiration (Before and after trip) but really not much out there on this SPECIFIC area.

[DanK]

Erik,

I have a suggestion.

I think that it might be useful to put the question of software aside for a bit and find a way to see what different types of adjustments do. With all due respect to Mike, I think looking for inspiration in others' photos, while a good starting point, won't be enough, because you won't know which types of edits have which effects. For example, you may see an image that appears very crisp and high contrast, and you might want to emulate that, but that wouldn't tell you how to do it.

So, i suggest some basic training in editing. You can certainly find things online, and many photo clubs offer occasional training.

Dan

[mastamak]

Looking at master photographers is also helpful, but sometime I find it difficult as they do not have the same "scene" in front of them....I tried googling the area I was in to see if that would give me any inspiration (Before and after trip) but really not much out there on this SPECIFIC area.

Hello again, Eric,
One of the big advantages I have found with OnOne is that you can apply any number of different filters and preview the effect on your image and this allows you to decide the direction you want to take the image and gives you a head start with your edit. It seems to me that this is what you are trying to achieve. Of course, as mentioned by other forum members above, Photoshop has many sophisticated tools that will allow you to get to the same point. But in my opinion, Photoshop won't allow you to easily pre-visualise the end product as can be done in OnOne and even if you have a good idea of what you want the final image to look like, unless you are a Photoshop expert it can be a bewildering task to achieve in Photoshop what can be done with one or two clicks in OnOne. I don't want to give the impression that I do not like Photoshop - quite the contrary, but if there is an easier and quicker solution, why not use it.
The NIK filters are great for editing images where you have a good idea of what you want the end product to look like. Others may disagree, but I feel the control point method used by NIK is better than fiddling with Photoshop selections.
Grant