D7000 as flash commander, using non-Nikon flash

[Manfred M]

Bruce - I don't know the SB-700, but do own the SB-600 and SB-900. So far as I remember the power level of the SB-700 is about the same as the SB-600 and the controls are similar to the SB-900.

Synch cords are generally not used with small flash, although you can get get a cord connector that links the hot shoe on the camera and to the hot shoe on the flash. Look at the manual and check out "Commander Mode"; this lets you use the pop up flash on the camera to trigger an external flash. It can be set up so that the pop-up flash does not impact the image at all. You can also use radio triggers to fire small flash as well. I use my PocketWizards like this all the time.

My Nikon flashes can be used in three modes - i-TTL which uses TTL metering in your camera to control the flash, the older method of having the flash control the exposure and total manual.

Between your camera and the small flash, you should have a lot of control.

[ionian]

I, not being fabulously wealthy, decided to research cheap brands for my flash. I use a d7100 and I have a couple of shanny SN600SN flashes. They have all the features of the SB-910 including HS sync, off camera ttl, repeat, and the same output. They work as master command flashes for Nikons flash system, and are fully integrated with the controls built into your camera. They also have sync cable inputs.

They are Chinese so you pay your money and you take your chances - there is nothing wrong with either of my units, in fact they are built like tanks, but Chinese manufacturing generally has yet to master quality control. From my research I can tell you they have rave reviews and cost a fraction of the Nikon units.

If you have the money for the Nikon, get it, but if you want a budget alternative, this is the one to go for as a Nikon user IMO. And no, I'm not on commission!

[brucehughw]

Hi, Dave.

Yes ... what began as a moderately complicated projects is ... growing more so . As I wrote, I'm new to the flash world. I think the SB700 would work for what I have in mind (freezing motion), and it will also come in handy for indoor family photos, the occasional group shot, and other indoor occasions. I also want to use it to capture images such as a pouring, say, boiling water into a tea carafe and catching the leaves moving around and the boundary between clear water and the water becoming tea. This will be much easier with the small unit, and in this case I'll want the flash to work with the camera and adjust metering. The SB700 runs about $320 -- much less than a new body or wide telephoto lens -- so it's not a huge expense (nor a trivial one).

As for the SB910, this would be nicer, but given my limited use of the SB700 flash and its ability to freeze motion (1/5714 sec at M 1/8 output) and its convenience/utility for other flash work, I think it's the right choice. If I were big into weddings or large gatherings, I'd go with the 910, but that seems excessive for my needs.

Ah, before I forget -- the 700 does not seem to have a strobe function (thanks, Nikon ). That could be fun to play around with e.g., daughter hopping around in a dark room or catching a tennis racket through contact. But another $200 for a "might use this" capability seems excessive. Also, for daughter hopping around in a dark room, I could just use the studio flash and fire it manually.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and if you see a flaw in my logic, please let me know.

Bruce

That adapter looks about right to me Bruce.

I suspect the flash duration of the Alien Bee would lead to 'subject smear' in some of the images shown in the article, a smaller (and hence faster) gun is a better solution.

However, I have to ask why you need to go to the expense of the Nikon SB700 for this use alone?
Given that you'll be triggering it and manually setting the flash power/duration.
Unless you're going to use some of the 'Nikon automatics' for other areas of photography, that is.

If widening the field of choice, a few things to consider are:

You may not need much power, but if you get a very cheap low power gun, it may need to be fired at (or near) full power, which will give too long a flash, I think you'd be better off with a powerful model, so you can dial it back (manually) to fire at a low setting, giving a short duration flash. This is probably why Manfred suggested the SB910.

You might also want to consider one with a "Repeat", or "Strobo" function, allowing (for trick shots), more than one flash burst in the same capture frame to give a succession of images (e.g. of a moving small object against a dark background)
If you read the instructions, look for one that allows settings of a number of flashes and a repeat frequency (in Hz).

I'm researching these areas myself now, although I did do something like this back in my film days, I have no recent or digital experience.

Hopefully others might chip in if they've tried this kinda shooting.

Cheers, Dave

[Mike Buckley]

Look at the manual and check out "Commander Mode"; this lets you use the pop up flash on the camera to trigger an external flash. It can be set up so that the pop-up flash does not impact the image at all.

As a reminder, Bruce, if your subject is highly reflective and close to the camera, the pop-up flash might generate a direct reflection. However, when using the device I mentioned earlier in the thread as part of your setup mentioned by Manfred, that problem is solved.

[Manfred M]

Bruce - flash can add a whole new dimension to your photography. It allows you to do things that can't be done in any other way.

If I were to make one observation; getting the flash off the camera and softening the light by using a light modifier can get you some simply sublime looking images.

[Dave Humphries]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and if you see a flaw in my logic, please let me know.

Only possibly the desire to stick with Nikon over the far cheaper Chinese alternatives such as Simon's Shanny's.
As he says though; QC can leave much to be desired, reviews on Amazon UK indicate a significant percentage are either dead on arrival or fail in the first few weeks.

That said, after being 'bitten' by a Sigma lens, I now only ever buy Nikon lenses (or go without), so I guess it depends upon our personal experiences.

If you want to stick with Nikon (and can afford it), please don't let me dissuade you - heck - I haven't even made my own mind up yet and may still go the Nikon route myself. I am compiling a spreadsheet with all the various makes and models, their features (or lack of), prices, etc. to compare and highlight the aspects that rule out certain models. Like you, rather than read just the advertising blurb, I'll find the manual and watch YouTube reviews to get a thorough understanding of their operation. Then comes crunch time.

You're correct; the SB700 doesn't seem to have the strobe feature


As Manfred says, off camera makes the world of difference. I have been manually bouncing off the ceiling with the flash joined to the camera via its bracket and a cord, every time I change orientation, I have to remember to crank the flash head round so it is still pointing up at the ceiling - a right PITW and only viable while my subject 'stays put'

So I'll be looking for Radio triggering, either built in, or external, to fire - and automate the exposure too, ideally. Radio over optical in case I want to shoot outdoors; e.g. to get more light on birds at a feeder.

Cheers, Dave

[Mike Buckley]

Consider buying a used Nikon flash to save money. I have an SB800 purchased used and it does have the strobe capability. I also have an SB600 purchased used, though it doesn't have that capability.

[Manfred M]

If you are looking for less expensive options to Nikon Speedlights, both Metz and Nissin have been building small flash for a lot longer than Nikon has and put out excellent units. Some of the Chinese manufacturers have been getting excellent reviews recently. Both Godix and Yongnuo fall into this category; both sell on eBay and Godox does have a small dealer network. Phottix triggers seem to be quite well received, but their small flash much less so. Other brands might be best avoided.

If you are looking at third party flash, be careful as these companies often sell anything from a totally manual flash to full Nikon iTTL compatibility. The lower the price, the lower the functionality.

[brucehughw]

Mike, Dave, and Manfred and others,

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions. You've really helped me figure out what I need and in choosing the most appropriate model. Pretty sure I'll go with the SB700. I've had good luck with Nikon products, and believe they provide good value. I look forward to posting some of the images on CiC soon.

Bruce

[Loose Canon]

Hey Bruce!

To stop motion of drops of water, and have them totally stopped and in-focus and at 100%, I would recommend that you keep an eye toward a minimum t.1 of 1/8000 on your flash. And the faster, the better. I don’t use Nikon gear but had a peek at the 700 specs on the Nikon site. As is typical of a lot of manufacturers it doesn’t say if this is a t.1 or a t.5 rating and one may assume it is a t.5 because that is a more impressive time for those who don’t know the difference. I didn’t go into “heavy research’ mode to find out the real story but if I were looking to do what you want to do and purchasing I surely would.

Just be aware that the closest on the Nikon page to a flying-drop-stopping-duration is 1/16th second and I’m not sure that is a t.1 time to boot. That is a relatively low output and you may have to compensate in-camera with either aperture or ISO.

If you could swing it, not only is stroboscopic and high speed sync desirable, but second curtain sync would/should be a necessity in a speedlight. Especially if you are going to just purchase one and want to work with motion. You should get all the features you can get with your one (and certainly first) flash. I didn’t see this on the Nikon page but I wouldn’t spend the $$ on a speedlight without it.

A couple of examples of what I think might be close to what you are looking to do? Close to the link you provided.



Fast splash. I tossed this splash.



Water drop.



Dry motion, same concept.



Second curtain sync done with speed light and continous.

[brucehughw]

Hi, Terry!

Those are amazing images -- I had no idea one could do such things. Re the SB-700, on page H-17 of the manual it notes flash durations from 1/40000 sec (M1/128 output) to 1/1042 at full output, with 1/16 output providing 1/10000 sec duration. These seem reasonable durations. I did not see t.1 or t.5 rating in the manual. Can you please tell me what these specs mean (no need, found the explanation here). You mention stroboscopic and high speed sync. Are there special flashes for what I'm trying to do, something like this perhaps? If you can share how you took the your images, I'd really appreciate it (or tell me where you learned).

As a follow up to my earlier posts in this thread, I visited my photographer neighbor and (to my surprise) he lent me his SB-700 . Seems he bought it and didn't like it, so he bought the SB-910 instead and wasn't using the 700. This is very good news, because I can experiment without the expense.

Thanks for your comments,

Bruce

Hey Bruce!

To stop motion of drops of water, and have them totally stopped and in-focus and at 100%, I would recommend that you keep an eye toward a minimum t.1 of 1/8000 on your flash. And the faster, the better. I don’t use Nikon gear but had a peek at the 700 specs on the Nikon site. As is typical of a lot of manufacturers it doesn’t say if this is a t.1 or a t.5 rating and one may assume it is a t.5 because that is a more impressive time for those who don’t know the difference. I didn’t go into “heavy research’ mode to find out the real story but if I were looking to do what you want to do and purchasing I surely would.

Just be aware that the closest on the Nikon page to a flying-drop-stopping-duration is 1/16th second and I’m not sure that is a t.1 time to boot. That is a relatively low output and you may have to compensate in-camera with either aperture or ISO.

If you could swing it, not only is stroboscopic and high speed sync desirable, but second curtain sync would/should be a necessity in a speedlight. Especially if you are going to just purchase one and want to work with motion. You should get all the features you can get with your one (and certainly first) flash. I didn’t see this on the Nikon page but I wouldn’t spend the $$ on a speedlight without it.

[Manfred M]

Bruce - this a good place to look to answer your question on t.1 and t.5. Unless otherwise stated, assume that t.5 is the number is what you are seeing.

http://www.paulcbuff.com/sfe-flashduration.php

[Loose Canon]

Bruce “special” flashes won’t necessarily be needed because a lot of models feature high speed sync (HSS), stroboscopic flash, and second curtain firing built-in. I just don’t know for sure if your 700 has these features but I suppose it would be easy enough to find out with the owner’s manual.

All the images I posted except the last two were shot with the Einsteins you linked to. It is a great light and provides very short durations in their action modes. However, they don’t provide built-in HSS, stroboscopic, or second curtain firing. They are much more powerful than a speedlight and are comparable in price. They are a pretty darn good bang-for-buck studio light. But because they do not feature second curtain firing I used a Canon 580 EXII speedlight for the last two shots along with some continuous lighting to get the motion trails.

You could get good results with your 700 as well as long as you keep your output low enough to keep the flash duration fast enough to stop the motion you are looking to stop. So you don’t necessarily need any specialty equipment. Very cool you have the use of one for free! Free is a good number in my book! If its free, I’ll even take a burnt match!

As to “how I did it”? In a nutshell… The ice cubes in the first shot were dropped into a water tank (fish aquarium with optically clear glass) and the shot flipped upside down.

The candle was suspended from a boom with a piece of wire and I tossed water at the bottom of it. I composited a shot of the lit candle (the flame really) with the shot I chose of the candle getting splashed.

The watch/water drop I pulled out of my hat! While it appears to be a drop rebound I didn’t actually drop a droplet. I took a small plastic bottle and put the bottom of it in the water and pulled it upwards and took the shot. So what you see is actually the water following the bottle upwards from the suction it creates pulling it off the water's surface rather than a rebounding drop. I might add that I shot this on my "wet" table which I built DIY style!

The last two are done with continuous light and a flash using second curtain firing. The shutter was dragged using a relatively long shutter speed (somewhere around ¼ second if I recall). This made the motion trails. Then the flash fired just before the second curtain closed ending the exposure. This flash firing stopped the object at the end of the exposure so you get a motion trail caused by a longish shutter speed at the beginning of the exposure, and a nice clean stopped object from the flash firing at the end of the exposure, all done in one frame. I simply rolled the truck across the table using this aforementioned lighting technique.

The toothpick I dropped onto a surface and started the exposure it when it bounced.

I guess I would have to say this kind of photography fascinates me Bruce. Guess I’m just easily amused! Not a lot of folks here do it so I’ll be looking forward to what you come up with in your endeavor. An exchange of ideas with you would be great!

[brucehughw]

Terry,

thanks for all the explanations! That's a lot to take in, and in terms of applying it, ... I'm not there yet. But it gives me some very useful background and techniques for this type of photography. Once I make some more progress with the flash, my setup, and some suitable subject matter, I'll post it.

Thanks again! Bruce

PS For the falling and bouncing toothpick, I understand you illuminated it at the end with a flash. How did you illuminate it during the 1/4 sec and obtain such a dark background? That's some pretty neat physics illustrated in that image.

[Loose Canon]

It has to be shot in a dark studio for good control of the lighting Bruce. Since extended shutter speeds are required the ambient light (aka continuous) has to be controlled. I used continuous lighting to illuminate the shot through the initial exposure and this is how the motion trail comes about on a relatively longish shutter speed. Notice the continuous is simply daylight white spiral bulbs in cheapie clamp reflectors?

The BG is relatively far away and the trick is just to not let any light spill onto it and try to keep your lighting controlled and only going where it needs to go. The farther away the better if you have enough room and little enough spill. If you are pressed for room try to flag your lights from the BG. I typically use a black fleece blanket draped over my BG stand when I want black. I shoot in my garage where I have been banished to by my Dearly Beloved when I do my thang! So I have a little room to work if I move my cot that I have to sleep on when I'm shooting out of the way!

Here is the basic set-up Bruce. The soft box up top houses the flash. Shooting the Dance of the Toothpicks was instantly addicting Bruce! I shot a ton of them because I was having so much fun! As I mentioned, I am easily amused and every shot is one-of-a-kind and cannot be duplicated. As are the splash shots you are looking to do. I just happen to think that is very cool! With your flash you can shoot something no one has ever seen and will never again!

I don't know so much about physics but fortunately the Graceful Toothpick does! It comes as no huge surprise to me that a simple toothpick teaches me!

Bruce I apologize if I laid too much out there. That was certainly not my intent. I was just excited to see what you are up to and the Road you are looking to travel is awesome!

And here is the thread I posted to with the shoot if you're interested.

[Dave Humphries]

I guess I would have to say this kind of photography fascinates me Bruce. Guess I’m just easily amused! Not a lot of folks here do it so I’ll be looking forward to what you come up with in your endeavor. An exchange of ideas with you would be great!

Hi Terry,

I am looking to join this elite club too, if I may - when I have decided on a flash and RF trigger system.

I dabbled in this area in my film days, I even built a rig with an eye dropper, photocell and electronic sequencer to trigger separate flashes to achieve a strobe effect. It made the "drips" photos more repeatable, which given the lack of instant feedback (with digital), was helpful.

Cheers, Dave

[brucehughw]

Hi, Terry.

Absolutely no need to apologize! I was just saying it will take me a while to get up to speed on this. Glad Dave is interested, too. I can't imagine trying this in film -- well, I can, but wow, the lag in figuring out if something worked or not. Anyway, thanks, Terry, for sharing all your knowledge and I look forward to applying some of it. I'm happy to share the little i've learned with the Arduino, which I'm using to trigger the flash.

Bruce

[Dave Humphries]

I can't imagine trying this in film -- well, I can, but wow, the lag in figuring out if something worked or not.

Hi Bruce,

Well, that was what prompted the development of the dropper-trigger device - with a fixed distance between dropper and photocell and photocell and saucer of water or milk, I could sit in a darkened room and repeatedly drip/trigger and adjust the delay control, timing by eye (as flash fired) until at least I knew the flash was timed for the landing or bounce, etc. then it was just a case of getting the exposure correct, which again, once known, was repeatable for a given combination of lens, flash, distance, aperture, film speed, etc. I think I also did my own developing, so that didn't take too long either (e.g. same or next day) and the negatives could be assessed before printing the best shaped of the successful ones.

Just a matter of breaking the challenges down in to small bits and dealing with each until the number of variables is reduced to a minimum.

Good luck with the loan SB700 - you lucky what-sit

Cheers, Dave

[brucehughw]

Hi, Dave.

I like how you broke down the whole process into its variables and being methodical about obtaining the right timing and exposure. With my digital camera, it's all too easy (and ultimately more time consuming) to just tweak something, expose, look at the image, and repeat. A little more method could go a long way.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Well, that was what prompted the development of the dropper-trigger device - with a fixed distance between dropper and photocell and photocell and saucer of water or milk, I could sit in a darkened room and repeatedly drip/trigger and adjust the delay control, timing by eye (as flash fired) until at least I knew the flash was timed for the landing or bounce, etc. then it was just a case of getting the exposure correct, which again, once known, was repeatable for a given combination of lens, flash, distance, aperture, film speed, etc. I think I also did my own developing, so that didn't take too long either (e.g. same or next day) and the negatives could be assessed before printing the best shaped of the successful ones.

Just a matter of breaking the challenges down in to small bits and dealing with each until the number of variables is reduced to a minimum.

Good luck with the loan SB700 - you lucky what-sit

Cheers, Dave

[Manfred M]

Bruce - just to open up your thinking a little bit, this is an outdoor shot I did downtown, where I combined flash and ambient light. A technique known as "dragging the shutter" (Terry used that technique in the toothpick image) means using a combination of ambient light at a slow shutter speed and some flash to freeze the motion. A tripod is necessary for most of these dragging the shutter shots.




Check your camera manual and read up on "front curtain" and "rear curtain" (this is Nikon terminology and is something Canon refers to as "first curtain" and "second curtain"). In normal flash use, the shutter has to be totally open in your camera (this means shooting at or slower than your camera's synch speed). The default setting on your cameras is that your first shutter blade opens and exposes the sensor to light, the flash fires, the shutter stays open to whatever time you have set it for and then the second shutter blade closes. In rear curtain, the first shutter blade opens and stays open to the time setting you have dialed in and just before the second blade starts to travel to cover the sensor, the flash fires. This gives you a totally different image and is one I often use when dragging the shutter.

Another technique you should read up on in your camera manual is what Nikon refers to as Auto FP (while most users use Canon terminology - High-Speed Synch, or just HSS).

Here your flash pulses very quickly and effectively puts out continuous light for the duration of the shot, so you can shoot flash images at the shortest shutter speed your camera is capable of (note: both your camera AND flash need to have this capability, I suspect both the D7000 and SB-700 do), so you can freeze action quite nicely. As with everything in photography (or in fact in life), there is a tradeoff. The light pulse produces about 2 stops less light than a normal flash would, so you have to adjust accordingly, but for closeup work, this tends to be reasonably easy.

A quick word on small flash versus studio flash. I use both of these types of lights; small flash tend to be quite portable and certain ones integrate into your camera's metering system, but they only have around 1/10th the power output of studio lights. This means you have significant limitations on the types of light modifiers that can be used with them (I tend to either bounce the light off walls, ceilings or reflectors or use a simple modifier like an umbrella). Studio lights, on the other hand can be fit up with modifiers like softboxes with or without grids that give you a great deal of control over the light. If you exclude the costs of the light stands and modifiers, the Einsteins that Terry and I shoot cost less than Nikon's SB-910, although if you look at the ProPhoto or Elinchrom lines, these can get rather pricey.

The final caution on flash work is flash (both small flash and studio lights) are small light sources (when compared to the subject) and small light sources produce hard, contrasty light. To soften the light, we will use light modifiers, to create a large light source (look at how close Terry's softbox is to the subject). These tend to be effective on studio lights, but the power output from small flash is too low for these modifiers to produce enough light for this type of work. Umbrellas can be used on small flash, but they "spill" light on places where you don't want it and don't work for these types of images.