Nik RAW Pre-sharpener

[Rebel]

Does anyone use this?

I always used to use it on my landscape images but noticing it brings out a lot of swirly lines when working on black and white images?

Also I use Adobe Unsharp mask as the final part of my workflow, am I just double sharpening here or ?

[george013]

Does anyone use this?

I always used to use it on my landscape images but noticing it brings out a lot of swirly lines when working on black and white images?

Also I use Adobe Unsharp mask as the final part of my workflow, am I just double sharpening here or ?

I can't give you an answer. I don't know if you're aware of it, but sharpening is done on a raster image, the converted raw-image. I just saw a tut about the Nik Sharpener and it nails you to an endresult: viewing distance, print size, print resolution, type of paper. The monitor isn't mentioned.
It's one of the collection I don't know to use stand alone.

George

[John 2]

Matt, I have used it but I'm bound to admit, I'm not sure how much it contributes to the end result. My workflow when I do use it is that after completing any PP in Adobe Raw, I open the image as a Raw file in CS6 rather than save it as a TIF file. I have then completed PP including pre sharpening and if needed, final output sharpening. The end result seems quite effective but its very much suck it and see. I'm not really working from any knowledge base. With a bit of luck, someone on here will know because I'm interested as well. BTW, many of the independent sharpening programs came into being because Adobe USM was a bit rough and ready (back in the 7/CS/CS2 etc days). Since then I think that it has been refined. These days, I find it can produce good results.

[John 2]

Matt, reading your post made me Google the subject and I found this. It's much better than NIK's help files:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-V8QPcKagw

[Rebel]

Cheers John, I'll watch that when I get home later


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[Shadowman]

I can't give you an answer. I don't know if you're aware of it, but sharpening is done on a raster image, the converted raw-image. I just saw a tut about the Nik Sharpener and it nails you to an endresult: viewing distance, print size, print resolution, type of paper. The monitor isn't mentioned.
It's one of the collection I don't know to use stand alone.

George

NIK uses display to sharpen for online viewing, there's only one slider for this type of sharpening; Adaptive Sharpening. I prefer using Continuous or Inkjet even if the image will be viewed by monitor.

[Shadowman]

Does anyone use this?

I always used to use it on my landscape images but noticing it brings out a lot of swirly lines when working on black and white images?

Also I use Adobe Unsharp mask as the final part of my workflow, am I just double sharpening here or ?

I typically use USM but have used Nik's sharpening tool especially when following a portrait editing tutorial, I did so only to see the effects and it's pretty good for most images; on others it can wreck havoc if over applied.

[george013]

NIK uses display to sharpen for online viewing, there's only one slider for this type of sharpening; Adaptive Sharpening. I prefer using Continuous or Inkjet even if the image will be viewed by monitor.

I'm not a PP-man, I've to learn about that myself too. I just read some tuts and saw some video's, including John's.
When I understood well, the output sharpening is meant for print work, print size, etc.
There might be a possibility to use the software with CaptureNx. I just managed to use it with IView. Not on a NEF but on a JPG.

I myself use high pass sharpening. I used to know the difference but not anymore. Less halo's.

George

[Shadowman]

I'm not a PP-man, I've to learn about that myself too. I just read some tuts and saw some video's, including John's.
When I understood well, the output sharpening is meant for print work, print size, etc.
There might be a possibility to use the software with CaptureNx. I just managed to use it with IView. Not on a NEF but on a JPG.

I myself use high pass sharpening. I used to know the difference but not anymore. Less halo's.

George

George,

There's also a RAW sharpener in the NIK collection, that one I rarely use it. This sharpening tool also uses the Adaptive Sharpening slider and also specific algorithms for high noise images, sharpening edges only or sharpening areas.

[george013]

George,

There's also a RAW sharpener in the NIK collection, that one I rarely use it. This sharpening tool also uses the Adaptive Sharpening slider and also specific algorithms for high noise images, sharpening edges only or sharpening areas.

That's the one we're talking about, don't we?

George

[Shadowman]

That's the one we're talking about, don't we?

George

Yes, but in post #2 you mentioned sharpening for monitor and this is done with the output sharpening filter. I don't think any RAW sharpener does so solely for the monitor viewing. You might profile for a monitor in ACR but then you'd have to do that anyway prior to using NIK RAW sharpener. I read that it's recommended that you convert your image to a smart object and apply Sharpener Pro as a smart filter. Perhaps this wasn't mentioned in the tutorials but would explain why there is nothing related to monitors in the NIK RAW Sharpener. Either way, there will always be debate over which method is most effective.

[Manfred M]

Sharpening is one of the more complex issues in digital photography and if you want to understand it well, I would direct you to Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe's definitive work on the subject "Real World Image Sharpening with Adobe Photoshop, Camera Raw and Lightroom". It is published by Peachpit Press and is available as a traditional book as well as an eBook. So far as I know, the second edition is the latest version, and it came out in 2010, so while parts of it are a touch dated, the basic information is still 100% relevant. It is not an easy read (hint - re-reading parts is very important).

They suggest a three step process that many photographers use. I will also admit that I don't use all three steps unless I print, but I will always use one or two of the steps with any image I make.

Step 1 - input sharpening. The digital image capture process (with the possible exception of the Sigma cameras) introduces a degree of softness, both through the anti-aliasing (AA) filter and the de-mosaicing process used to construct an image that was taken with a camera equipped with a Bayer filter (i.e. any camera other than a Sigma).

I never do this in the raw conversion process, even though this is the default in ACR. I don't sharpen until after I apply noise reduction, otherwise I would just be sharpening the noise, so in my workflow, I check for noise first and reduce it if necessary before sharpening. I use the Unsharp Mask (USM) for this, although lately I have been experimenting with Photoshop's Smart Sharpen. The amount of sharpening I do is quite small and just enough to overcome the issues that the digital capture process has introduced. I do this by eye and always with the image at 100% resolution.

Let's also remember what sharpening does - it takes areas of the image where light and dark areas meet and enhances those edges by widening them and lightening / darkening them. If not used with care, it is all too easy to introduce artifacts that produce "halos".

I do this before I do any other editing.


Step 2. In-process sharpening (I call this localized sharpening) - This is just part of the local editing that I do. In portraits I will use local sharpness adjustments to enhance eye lashes or lips, in landscapes I might do these on grass or leaves of trees and in architectural features I might do this on some of those elements to improve the texture of walls, etc. I only do this in Photoshop and always do this with layer masks so that I can go back and tweak the look. As with import sharpening, I do this with the image at 100% size.

Step 3. Output sharpening - I save my "master file" after all my edits in steps 1 and 2. Output sharpening is done only when the image is scaled to the final size it will be output at. I usually skip this step for web display as the image will be displayed on so many different screen sizes, a variable that I cannot control.

For prints, on the other hand, I do this 100% of the time. Print size, paper I use (finish / texture - matte gets more sharpening than a lustre paper and a glossy paper gets even less) and specific paper I use (different brands of paper - I tend to use Epson lustre paper for my day to day work and Hahnemuhle paper for my high quality work). I did test prints to establish the amount of sharpening I do.


Just as a note - I have played around with the Nik sharpening filters and NEVER use them. USM or sometimes Smart Sharpen are what I use most. I know some people like using the High Pass Filter. I find I don't like the results and I get far better results with the USM, it seems to be a bit too "brute force".

[Shadowman]

Just as a note - I have played around with the Nik sharpening filters and NEVER use them. USM or sometimes Smart Sharpen are what I use most. I know some people like using the High Pass Filter. I find I don't like the results and I get far better results with the USM, it seems to be a bit too "brute force".

I've tried the NIK sharpening filters when following a tutorial on workflow from ACR to printing the image and the filters are good for certain types of images. When I first installed the software the only tutorials on sharpening found were for landscapes, it took awhile before I found anything for portraits/street photography and this was found in print, "Nik Software Captured: The Complete Guide to Using Nik Software's Photographic Tools" by Tony L. Corbell and Joshua A. Haftel and even they state the same as you did, noise reduction before sharpening, RAW sharpener in ACR just as effective. I've never had much success with the Nik RAW sharpener but the output sharpener works well.

[Manfred M]

I've tried the NIK sharpening filters when following a tutorial on workflow from ACR to printing the image and the filters are good for certain types of images. When I first installed the software the only tutorials on sharpening found were for landscapes, it took awhile before I found anything for portraits/street photography and this was found in print, "Nik Software Captured: The Complete Guide to Using Nik Software's Photographic Tools" by Tony L. Corbell and Joshua A. Haftel and even they state the same as you did, noise reduction before sharpening, RAW sharpener in ACR just as effective. I've never had much success with the Nik RAW sharpener but the output sharpener works well.

Could be John, but frankly I find it faster to resize, scale to 100% and run USM than to load up and use Nik output sharpening. I will admit that I am quite comfortable with the technique I use (it works). As I don't see any advantage to the Nik approach, I never bothered to do anything more than experiment with it.

[Shadowman]

Could be John, but frankly I find it faster to resize, scale to 100% and run USM than to load up and use Nik output sharpening. I will admit that I am quite comfortable with the technique I use (it works). As I don't see any advantage to the Nik approach, I never bothered to do anything more than experiment with it.

Manfred,

I use it as a plug-in through Elements or LR so its easy to go back or forth. Right now, I usually start in LR for basic adjustments as my camera isn't supported by ACR, for my older camera I would go directly through Elements and sometimes skip LR; I typically only use Nik if I plan to use some of the special features but if following a step by step workflow using Nik then I'll use the other software afterwards. I really don't have to back into Elements if I like the results obtained through Nik, but sometimes the NIk sharpening tool makes the image look worse so I'll do output sharpening in Elements or LR.

[rpcrowe]

I open my RAW images using Adobe Bridge - Adobe Camera RAW

I have all in-camera and Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) sharpening and noise control turned off.

I do a bit of PP in ACR - I especially like it for rotation and for perspective control

I open my RAW images into Photoshop CS6 because I have never been comfortable with either LR or PSE...

I can work with NIK software from within CS6 by just selecting FILTER>NIK and then selecting the individual NIK software

I use Dfine as my first step after opening from ACR only when I think that the image requires noise reduction. Usually, I do this when I am shooting with ISO 640 or greater with my Canon 5DII and 7D cameras.

I then do a lot of my cloning (such as removing the leads on my rescue dogs) with the CS6 clone tool

Then I will use NIK RAW pre-sharpening

I will then do what I need to do regarding color, contrast, etc...

I will go back and forth using both the NIK Software and the tools in CS6 to complete my PP

Then I save (WITHOUT ANY ADDITIONAL SHARPENING, SIZING or CROPPING) my image as a Master File Document in PSD format...

From that PSD master file document, I will crop and size and apply output sharpening - depending on my individual output needs.

The saved PSD master document will allow me to crop, sharpen and size the image to my needs and then save in the format (most often JPEG) that I want. I will always have first: the unedited RAW file and second: the edited but uncropped, unsized master image without output sharpening to which I can return and produce a final product as per my needs.

The saved RAW file remains untouched. I have gone back to these files at times when new post production software comes along to do a better job than the ones I have previously used.

[george013]

When I understood good:
1. The NIK RAW pre-sharpener doesn't sharpen the RAW-files. Just the converted raster image.
2. What you see is the normal sharpening for the monitor.
3. Output sharpening sharpens for specific output, it goes further as normal sharpening. And it doesn't look good on the monitor.
4. Doing the sharpening in the RAW-converter while you plan to edit more, is no good idea.

George

[Manfred M]

1. The NIK RAW pre-sharpener doesn't sharpen the RAW-files. Just the converted raster image.

Correct - the raw file is never touched in editing and the way the Nik Presharpener works is exactly as you describe it.

2. What you see is the normal sharpening for the monitor.

Not 100% correct. What you see is enough sharpening to correct loss of sharpness from the digital capture process so that the image has this corrected before you do any other editing.

3. Output sharpening sharpens for specific output, it goes further as normal sharpening. And it doesn't look good on the monitor.

If you use Nik for output sharpening for screen output, it should be reasonably good for screen viewing. I would say this is more likely to be correct if you are sharpening for printing.

4. Doing the sharpening in the RAW-converter while you plan to edit more, is no good idea.

In practical terms this is true if the image is needs noise reduction, otherwise, it doesn't really matter.

The problem is you won't know if it needs noise reduction until you open it up and if sharpening has been applied before hand, you've sharpened the noise in the image so it stands out even more. The noise reduction is going to have to be turned up even higher to reduce the noise and you will lose further detail in your image.

[Rebel]

Ive just come back from an engagement party and read all this, im so confused. I'll read again in the morning.

Im even wondering whether you even need to sharpen street photography?


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[IzzieK]

I am interested in your question too so I will watch the responses. Thanks to John 2 for the link. I will watch it in the morning...