Do you change your Picture Control?

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Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Hi Erik, et al,

I shoot RAW - always (unless I just don't care).
I have always processed in ACR, not Nikon's software.

I have my Picture Control set to Standard and leave it there.

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My first serious DSLR was the Sigma SD9 - a raw-only camera. Then I upgraded to the SD10 - still raw-only. Those were the days of sublime simplicity. What you shot was what you got. :D

Then along came the SD14 with in-camera JPEGs but no scene modes. The in-camera JPEGs suck, so I still shoot raw with it.

I never indulged in the SD15, so the next up was the mighty SD1 Merrill which does come with what they call color modes (classic photography - yet another name for the same thing!). The modes are all much of a muchness, not too extreme and the resulting JPEGs are quite good but I use Standard Color Mode for one simple reason:

Not being one for letting the camera do anything other than shoot the scene, I checked the meta-data (3x3 matrix) for each color mode. Standard mode is the only one that doesn't mess with what the camera captured. With the Sigma converter and a raw capture you can always change the color mode in post, as you can the WB, if so desired. However, for all the usual reasons, I still shoot raw with the SD1M.

In my view, post-processors like RawTherapee do a much better job with their infinite variety of processing options and saveable sidecar files.

I'm saying that, on the only DSLR I own that has scene/color modes, I only "use" one of them and that only with it's contrast/sharpness/saturation set firmly to zero (neutral).

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I don't know what you mean. I've 4 histograms: RGB,R,G and B. I assume RGB is brightness. I think I see more blinkies on the lcd screen than when I view them on the PC. I must test that still.

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George, for clarity, my Canon 7dmk2 has two histogram modes, specifically RGB and Brightness.

The Brightness option displays a single histogram and the RGB option shows 3 seperate histograms stacked in the pane.

I would assume your RGB option is the composite of the other 3 and equivalent to my Brightness option.

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Originally Posted by Donald

No it's not. 'Using them' means you make some reference to them/engage with the function for the purposes of capturing a photograph and/or assessing an image. Dave made it quite clear that using the camera controls play no part in his image-capturing process.

The fact that a camera control may be set, does not mean that you 'use it'.

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I just checked on my D700, picture controle is a controle that's used for the conversion to jpg. If you watch the picture on your back of the camera, you see the result of the conversion based on the picture control. The histogram is jpg-based, so also on the picture control.
I didn't find any possibility to switch it off.

George

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Originally Posted by James G

George, for clarity, my Canon 7dmk2 has two histogram modes, specifically RGB and Brightness.

The Brightness option displays a single histogram and the RGB option shows 3 seperate histograms stacked in the pane.

I would assume your RGB option is the composite of the other 3 and equivalent to my Brightness option.

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With my Nikon there're 4 histograms on 1 screen. Probably a bigger screen. I distinguish between RGB and R,G,B. In this case the RGB histogram is the brightness diagram. I think it's the average of the R,G and B channel values. The RGB might not show clipping, while the R does. Or B or G.

George

It seems that everyone who as responded to this thread, as well as the OP, are RAW shooters. I have to say that if one is inclined to shoot jpeg and/or uses OEM software for processing and desires SOOC results, then learning the nuances of the picture control settings would be a must IMO. For the SOOC shooter learning how the in-camera processing works is comparable to us PP sorts learning the nuances of the various sliders, etc. in our software program(s) of choice. A fact rarely recognized and/or accepted by SOOC devotees.

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Originally Posted by NorthernFocus

It seems that everyone who as responded to this thread, as well as the OP, are RAW shooters. I have to say that if one is inclined to shoot jpeg and/or uses OEM software for processing and desires SOOC results, then learning the nuances of the picture control settings would be a must IMO. For the SOOC shooter learning how the in-camera processing works is comparable to us PP sorts learning the nuances of the various sliders, etc. in our software program(s) of choice. A fact rarely recognized and/or accepted by SOOC devotees.

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I'm afraid you are missing the point. Even if you shoot RAW, the picture on your lcd is a raster based image, converted from the RAW using the picture control. Histogram info is based on this image, clipping is based on this image, your first judgement is based on this image.
I only shoot RAW. And changing your picture control does change the picture on your lcd.

George

George

If the intricacies and details of what picture control does or does not do is of such importance to you, then that is fine. But you should not assume that everyone else gives it the importance that you do.

As for myself, I like to go out and capture photographs and then make images from what I've captured. What the picture control settings are is irrelevant and not at all important. And those who view and buy my images don't seem too concerned with what picture control settings I do or do not use.

If I have a fantastic shot..one that fully expresses what I envisage and feel inside...or one that can be worked with to do so

and the histograms says 'no.this isn't good..'

Well...I know that I'd rather view a picture with feeling than any amount of graphs.

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Originally Posted by Donald

George

If the intricacies and details of what picture control does or does not do is of such importance to you, then that is fine. But you should not assume that everyone else gives it the importance that you do.

As for myself, I like to go out and capture photographs and then make images from what I've captured. What the picture control settings are is irrelevant and not at all important. And those who view and buy my images don't seem too concerned with what picture control settings I do or do not use.

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The question was "do you change your picture control". First you should wonder if you use it. The answer is yes. It contains the in-camera pp-settings, the one the converter uses.
Then the answer of the question. Some changed it, some aren't aware of them. You changed it to monochrome, Dan changed it to neutral and all the other settings to their minimum.
Then there is the problem that not all converters are using the in-camera settings. I'm lucky still being able to use the CaptureNx converter. When I open a RAW-file, I see exactly the jpg from the camera. And I can change everything.

George

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Originally Posted by george013

I'm afraid you are missing the point...

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It wouldn't be the first time nor the last. However, you may want to consider all of the comments on the topic collectively before drawing conclusions.

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Originally Posted by george013

When I open a RAW-file, I see exactly the jpg from the camera.

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Wow.

When I open a Sigma X3F raw file, I see it's embedded basic JPEG image - but only for an instant while Sigma Photo Pro converts the raw data to a temporary file in 16-bit Kodak linear ROMM space and then I see that file rendered on my screen in 8-bit sRGB with absolutely no j-pegging at all :D

Which makes me think that I'm lucky to NOT be able to use the CaptureNx converter. ;)

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Originally Posted by george013

[using] the CaptureNx converter. When I open a RAW-file, I see exactly the jpg from the camera.

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I think I understand what you're getting at, George, but that's not what is happening. Rather than display the embedded JPEG, CaptureNX converts the raw file. I mention this mostly for people following the thread who are new to the basics of shooting and converting raw files.

To add to what Mike has just posted - Nikon CaptureNX reads ALL of the embedded EXIF data from the Nikon NEF file and applies ALL of the settings that were set in the camera at the time of capture. This is typical of OEM software but not of raw conversion software general so George you need to understand that your workflow may be different to the majority of others here who typically use third party converters.

Obviously as we are dealing with raw data we can all then go about altering the settings to those we want and prefer but if you use OEM software you need to be aware that ALL setting from the camera are applied so for instance if you have changed things like the sharpening level this will be carried over on the initial conversion. Again this isn't typical of third party software which tends to apply a mixture of software default settings and sometimes but not always some of the picture controls.

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Originally Posted by Mike Buckley

I think I understand what you're getting at, George, but that's not what is happening. Rather than display the embedded JPEG, CaptureNX converts the raw file. I mention this mostly for people following the thread who are new to the basics of shooting and converting raw files.

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What I'm saying, at least want to say, is that a NEF file converted in CaptureNx produces an image exactly as the jpg in the camera. They use the same converters. And I think this counts for the converter delivered with Canon too. Though I don't know anything about that.

I did set my picture control on standard. For me it's the best starting point to continue in CaptureNx.
If you use another converter, it depends on the converter settings.

This last part of this thread is based on my reaction,#17, on the post of Dave,#15, where he stated that he didn't use them. As soon you look at your in-camere converted jpg, either on the pc or on your lcd-screen, you've used them.
And when you shoot raw and use ACR or RawTherapee, you won't use them. Those converters might make their own settings. At least that used to be.

George

Hi George,

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Originally Posted by george013

This last part of this thread is based on my reaction,#17, on the post of Dave,#15, where he stated that he didn't use them. As soon you look at your in-camere converted jpg, either on the pc or on your lcd-screen, you've used them.

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OK, OK; you win - I 'use' them - simply because I look at the jpg and histogram on the LCD (and I can't not use one of them).

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Originally Posted by george013

And when you shoot raw and use ACR or RawTherapee, you won't use them.

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Now it appears I don't use them.


This isn't really helping Erik, is it - I think this thread moved past that a while back. :(

Overall this thread has helped and allowed me to understand the options and if it worth using them when out shooting.

I like going with either Flat or Standard, the later being what I was shooting before, unbeknownst to me. Really, I am not as concerned as to "how" the photo looks in the LCD beyond Focus and Composition, both of which are difficult if not impossible to change in PP. I would like a good representative Histogram to ensure that I am not clipping any details - Luminance or RGB or allows me to Expose to the Right if needed.

I would have to go back and review my photos and look deeper at my test images - but could you end up in a situation where given your Picture Control you would show clipping that might not be seen in another Picture Control Setting. I am thinking yes...but not sure.

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Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Hi George,



OK, OK; you win - I 'use' them - simply because I look at the jpg and histogram on the LCD (and I can't not use one of them).

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That was #17. And 100% on topic.

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You do use them. You've never changed them. That's different.

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I don't know exactly hat you mean. But let me put it this way: picture control is an in-camera pp setting.
If you use a converter that copies the in-camera settings, then you can use/change them to gain a good starting point for further processing. If not, you only have to worry about the embedded jpg and your judgements based on that jpg.

I didn't see the video Erik is referring to. But I'm sure he knows what he is doing. If he uses the right converter.

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So I am not sure if I would ever use anything but Standard or Flat (Flat is recommend for photos that will be processed afterwards and gives the widest tonal range). The the later would give me a good representative of the Histogram overall and for the most part, I would not go straight from camera with PP>

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George

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Originally Posted by george013

a NEF file converted in CaptureNx produces an image exactly as the jpg in the camera.

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A converted raw image and the embedded JPEG will be close but not exactly the same. This explains why so many people stress that the histogram being displayed in the camera is the histogram of the embedded JPEG, not of the converted raw file, and that the two histograms will usually if not always be at least a little bit different to the extent that you'll see the differences if you look for them. I suppose you could capture a raw file, use external software to extract the embedded JPEG, and then open both in Capture NX to confirm that the histograms are different and, thus, also confirm that the two images are different.

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Originally Posted by george013

If you use a converter that copies the in-camera settings, then you can use/change them to gain a good starting point for further processing.

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I'll use the context of that true statement to finally get around to answering the question posed in the title of the thread: I have a particular Nikon Picture Control that I use on all photos; I never change it in the camera. That's because as my first post-processing step, I can more easily change the Picture Control using Capture NX than when using the camera. Indeed, my first post-processing step is always to eliminate all in-camera sharpening whether or not I change the fundamental Picture Control.

All of the above is a function of the fact that I always shoot raw files and that it is a convenient workflow for me, as there is no right or wrong way when it comes to using Picture Control settings in that situation.

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Originally Posted by TheBigE

Really, I am not as concerned as to "how" the photo looks in the LCD beyond Focus and Composition, both of which are difficult if not impossible to change in PP. I would like a good representative Histogram to ensure that I am not clipping any details - Luminance or RGB or allows me to Expose to the Right if needed.

I would have to go back and review my photos and look deeper at my test images - but could you end up in a situation where given your Picture Control you would show clipping that might not be seen in another Picture Control Setting. I am thinking yes...but not sure.

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Re the first: I think that is exactly right. The LCD will show you composition and focus, although often one has to zoom in to see the latter. That's really all it is good for. Re the second: I believe so, but it would depend on the algorithms in the camera (e.g., how the distribution of luminance is changed to increase contrast), and I have never tested it.