Shooting dancers in stage light or use flash? Or mix?

[teigas]

I have a question regarding ambient and flash light.I have before shot a dancer when she jumped and moved with an Einstein flash, and i think I got the concept that its the duration of the flash blink itself that stops the motion. I have been ofered to try to shoot some dancers for the experiment and fun on tuesday, but we got limited time (on there end) they also have a light guy avaible to controll stage light.So since they have him the mix i might try to get his lighting in the shots. I guess i just need to try a little and see if can get enough light from the stage lights, but if not i think i might want to add the einstein to the mix.
1. I now if i go around 1/200 i will kill all the stage lights and rely on the flash and the duration. That is correct?
2. And the further down i go lets say 1/60 i will add ambient light/stage light. But what will happen if i let in stage lights to the mix will i anyway be able to freeze the motion or will the stage light overpower the einstein flash and work against it?
3. If i only use stage lights , what shutterspeed do you think i need to be stop the motion?
Hope sombody has some pointers.

[rpcrowe]

Let me just give some input to #3

I shot these images using a Canon 7D with 70-200mm f/4L IS lens...

a. Stage lights should give you the most dramatic impact. However the colored stage lights sometimes don't work well for dancer's portraits. As in this image:


When I shot this dance performance in Xi'an China, I was shooting with a Canon 40D and using ISO 800 which allowed me to get this image at 1/250 second # f/5.6. ISO 800 is about as high as I would normally go shooting with the old 40D. I was still able to get some decent shots...

1/250 us the slowest I would go for a fast moving dancer. In the above shot while she is pretty well stopped by the shutter speed, her arms are a tiny bit blurred. I like that combination because if conveys action...

With a newer model camera, I would have no problems shooting at a higher ISO. I would rather experience a bit of noise than a blurry image. EXCEPT: if I wanted to achieve a really blurred image to give the illusion of motion by shooting with an unusually slow shutter speed. Noise can be somewhat controlled with PP...

b. Another trick is to shoot the dancers when they pause or at the peak of action. Peak of action is when the subject is, say, leaping; to catch that subject at the height of the jump a the split second when he or she has reached the zenith of the jump and before the dancer begins to come down. In that split second (often difficult to catch) the dancer is still and can be captured at a slower shutter speed. This can also work in sports photography like indoor basketball. Here is a shot when the dancer paused...


c. If you have rapport with the company, talking with the lighting person might result in the lights a bit brighter than what they would be for a normal performance.

d. If you an get the dance company to pose for a portrait mimicking the dance that might be the absolute best way to get the images. You might even be able to go up on the stage for some shots. Shooting in Programmed or shutter speed priority with flash (possibly at -1 or -2 stop FEC) would give you a relatively good balance between flash and stage lighting. However, I would not use straight-on flash. I would choose a Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Professional with the Flip-It portion angled at 45 degrees towards the subject. There are other diffuser/reflectors whic could also work.

e. Using a lens with a wide maximum aperture could be a two-edged sword. It would allow a faster shutter speed, thus freezing action but, the wide aperture would produce a very shallow DOF. However, this might be a positive or a negative, depending on your image. In a close up shot like this, shot at f/5 the shallow DOF is no problem...

This was shot at 185mm (296mm equivalent) when the dancer stopped moving, almost imperceptibly, during her routine...

[Geoff F]

How fast will the action be and do you have a High Speed Flash option?

I have successfully used HSF at 1/800 but acceptable distance to subject gets reduced at these settings.

Alternatively, how bright would the stage lighting be; so could you get away with Iso around 800, or maybe 1000 if really pushed and there wasn't too much dark shadows.

Does your flash have through the lens metering and output compensation? When I have shot at higher speeds with flash I always set the camera manually to suit the action then varied the flash compensation as required.

[teigas]

Let me just give some input to #3

I shot these images using a Canon 7D with 70-200mm f/4L IS lens...

a. Stage lights should give you the most dramatic impact. However the colored stage lights sometimes don't work well for dancer's portraits. As in this image:


When I shot this dance performance in Xi'an China, I was shooting with a Canon 40D and using ISO 800 which allowed me to get this image at 1/250 second # f/5.6. ISO 800 is about as high as I would normally go shooting with the old 40D. I was still able to get some decent shots...

1/250 us the slowest I would go for a fast moving dancer. In the above shot while she is pretty well stopped by the shutter speed, her arms are a tiny bit blurred. I like that combination because if conveys action...

With a newer model camera, I would have no problems shooting at a higher ISO. I would rather experience a bit of noise than a blurry image. EXCEPT: if I wanted to achieve a really blurred image to give the illusion of motion by shooting with an unusually slow shutter speed. Noise can be somewhat controlled with PP...

b. Another trick is to shoot the dancers when they pause or at the peak of action. Peak of action is when the subject is, say, leaping; to catch that subject at the height of the jump a the split second when he or she has reached the zenith of the jump and before the dancer begins to come down. In that split second (often difficult to catch) the dancer is still and can be captured at a slower shutter speed. This can also work in sports photography like indoor basketball. Here is a shot when the dancer paused...


c. If you have rapport with the company, talking with the lighting person might result in the lights a bit brighter than what they would be for a normal performance.

d. If you an get the dance company to pose for a portrait mimicking the dance that might be the absolute best way to get the images. You might even be able to go up on the stage for some shots. Shooting in Programmed or shutter speed priority with flash (possibly at -1 or -2 stop FEC) would give you a relatively good balance between flash and stage lighting. However, I would not use straight-on flash. I would choose a Joe Demb Flash Diffuser Professional with the Flip-It portion angled at 45 degrees towards the subject. There are other diffuser/reflectors whic could also work.

e. Using a lens with a wide maximum aperture could be a two-edged sword. It would allow a faster shutter speed, thus freezing action but, the wide aperture would produce a very shallow DOF. However, this might be a positive or a negative, depending on your image. In a close up shot like this, shot at f/5 the shallow DOF is no problem...

This was shot at 185mm (296mm equivalent) when the dancer stopped moving, almost imperceptibly, during her routine...

Thank you for the feedback.

[teigas]

The small nikon sb900 units can use high speed sync, but i will loose to much light i think. And i have also learned that its the flash duration that freezes or stops the motion. And on a Nikon Sb900 the fastest duration is at the lowest settings.

So i am not sure if they would work so great.

[rpcrowe]

I am not sure what your maximum sync speed would be for your camera/flash combination.

With my Canon hotshoe strobes, the maximum sync speed is 1/250 second but, speeds above that can be obtained using high speed sync. With my studio strobes, the maximum sync speed is considerably slower with no provision for high speed sync.

However, if you are completely lighting the set with your flash, the sync speed will not matter. The flash, even at full power, should be short enough to freeze the dancers.

The only reason you would need a higher shutter speed is to prevent a secondary image from the stage lights. I am guessing that 1/250 second would be O.K. for that.

The problem as I see it with shooting a stage play or dancers on the stage using flash is that it would eliminate all the creative lighting that is done with the stage lighting. In order to duplicate that lighting, you would probably need quite a few pretty powerful strobes with modifiers such as snoots, grids, etc.and a set of light stands. That would be a monumental project

[William W]

. . . I have been ofered to try to shoot some dancers for the experiment and fun on tuesday, but we got limited time (on there end) they also have a light guy avaible to controll stage light.So since they have him the mix i might try to get his lighting in the shots. I guess i just need to try a little and see if can get enough light from the stage lights, but if not i think i might want to add the einstein to the mix.

*

1. I now if i go around 1/200 i will kill all the stage lights and rely on the flash and the duration. That is correct?

Depends on the Aperture and ISO that you use – for example at F/16 @ 1/200s @ ISO 100 you probably will kill all the stage lights even of the brightest stage . . . but at F/2.8 @ 1/200s @ ISO3200 there will probably be a noticeable amount of stage light for most modern dance lighting sets – even if it is just a Follow Spot illuminating.

*

2. And the further down i go lets say 1/60 i will add ambient light/stage light. But what will happen if i let in stage lights to the mix will i anyway be able to freeze the motion or will the stage light overpower the einstein flash and work against it?

Again that depends on the Aperture and the ISO that you choose – see the example above.


*

3. If i only use stage lights , what shutterspeed do you think i need to be stop the motion?

Depends on:

1. The DIRECTION of the movement relative to the camera - the more transverse the movement the faster the shutter speed required.

2. The SPEED of the Subject – the faster the speed of the Subject the faster the shutter speed required.

3. The FRAMING of the image in the viewfinder & the amount of ENLARGEMENT/CROP of the final image & the VIEWING DISTANCE of h final image - the TIGHTER the framing and crop; the bigger the enlargement and the closer the viewing then he faster the shutter speed required

In considering these three aspects, note that there is an advantage in releasing the Shutter (taking the picture) at the time of LEAST SUBJECT MOVEMENT - for example if the Dancer is in a spin, the time of least Subject Movement is usually when the Head if directly forward facing to the Audience - at this very short time time, during most spins, the dancer stops the spinning movement of the head and shoulders and upper chest, just for a split-second.

***

These are the basic two lighting/exposure concepts to arrest Human Subject Motion Blur for Stage Productions:

> IF you use FLASH, then the Flash has to overpower the Ambient Light (Stage Lights) sufficiently so that the Ambient Light is irrelevant to the exposure.

Making the Ambient Light more towards ‘irrelevant’ is achieved by using a smaller Aperture (bigger F Number) and/or a lower ISO (smaller ISO Number) – AND – also the Flash has to be powerful enough to work at the Aperture and ISO which have been selected.

*
> IF you use only the AMBIENT Light, then the Shutter Speed has to be fast enough to arrest the Subject Motion (see three points above).

To get a faster shutter speed you can open the Aperture (smaller F Number), and/or raise the ISO (larger ISO Number).

***

As a guide for the Shutter Speed to use for a Full Length Shot of competent dancer running across the stage: 1/800s~ 1/1250s would be a good starting point.

***

These points have already been made in the previous thread, though some are phrased differently and it would be good for you to review that conversation.

WW

Addendum - No one can give you a definitive Shutter Speed, ISO and Aperture to use OR definitive answers to your three questions, because it is as Geoff F, wrote: it mostly all depends upon how fast the dancers are moving and how bright are the Stage Lights . . .

and then - how tight you frame the shot; and how powerful is the flash; how fast is you lens (maximum aperture) and how much high ISO you have to use.

There are GUIDELINES - and as mentioned that previous thread is jam packed with guidelines and examples.

[William W]

The small nikon sb900 units can use high speed sync, but i will loose to much light i think.

By initiating HSS you can drop up to 2 Stops of effective flash power.

***

And i have also learned that its the flash duration that freezes or stops the motion. And on a Nikon Sb900 the fastest duration is at the lowest settings. So i am not sure if they would work so great.

If you mean that when in HSS the Flash does NOT "freeze" the motion - but it is the camera's Shutter Speed which determines that: then you are correct.

WW

[Dave Humphries]

Bill, Manfred and Teigas,

And i have also learned that its the flash duration that freezes or stops the motion. And on a Nikon Sb900 the fastest duration is at the lowest settings. So i am not sure if they would work so great.

I'm not contradicting Bill's answer, but I took the above sentence to mean that Teigas understood that when not in HSS mode, the flash duration will be shorter at lower power settings (e.g. 1/16 - 1/128) than at full power, or levels closer to it (e.g. 1/2 to 1/8).

Of course, if the flash power is set Manually, the results will be far more predictable than if i-TTL is used.
That said, it may well be that due to distance, aperture and ISO constraints, the best flash duration for freezing motion will be insufficient for a good exposure, so a compromise will have to be reached. Using i-TTL may help with this, but also brings in a raft of issues regarding metering mode and scene content that may change between shots and make analysis very tricky (potentially impossible!).

Hi Teigas,

As Manfred and Bill have said, you really need to thoroughly understand the basic principles; i.e. the cause and effect of making changes during the shoot. If we give you a nominal shutter speed and for reasons we don't know about, that proves to be unsuccessful, if you don't understand how to fix that problem quickly, you risk ending up with a lot of similar looking 'bad' shots. If you experiment and get lucky, but don't understand what helped, you are destined to never advancing knowledgeably to taking better photos.

I have recently started using flash myself (for static shots only, so far) and I have put in hours and hours of research to understand the 'how and why', by much reading here and viewing on line YouTube videos and some 'paid for' content on Lynda.com.

Your previous thread; Freezing a dancer jumping with flash and flash duration advice contains a lot of useful information, I hope you have re-read it all - it will help your overall understanding, particularly with regard to shutter speed, flash speed and motion freezing, since you did some tests there.

Good luck, Dave

[Manfred M]

Teigas - I quite agree with Dave's sentiment in his reply to you.

You have to understand not only flash characterisitcs, but the dynamics involved in the dancer's movements. In addition, the size of your final product and method of display come into play as well.

If you have a dancer who is moving vertically in the move you are trying to capture, there is NO motion when he or she hits maximum height and if you time things and press the shutter release at that moment, even a relatively slow shutter speed and long flash could be sufficient to freeze the motion. This kind of setup would be far easier to photograph as well, as it is easier to frame and possibly less risky to the dancer. You can certainly help yourself and the dancers by working with them to make life easier on yourself. Work with them and tell them what you are trying to capture and they, as expert dancers, might have some solutions for you. After all, you don't want to tire them out with repeated motions that take a lot of effort and energy.

If you are planning to do a large format print, you are going to need a sharper image than one that will be displayed on a computer screen or website. Again, the final use of the image will dictate, to some extent, what you can and cannot get way with in the final image.

Finally, get to know the equipment you are using really well so that you can pull off these shots. If you can shoot tethered to a laptop (rather than using your camera's screen), you will get a far better idea as to how well things are working during the shoot. The questions you have asked tend to have me wondering how well you understand the underlying principles of what you are doing, so figuring out flash and technique ahead of your planned shoot would increase your likelihood of success.

[William W]

. . .Bill, Manfred and Teigas,

And i have also learned that its the flash duration that freezes or stops the motion. And on a Nikon Sb900 the fastest duration is at the lowest settings. So i am not sure if they would work so great.

. . . I took the above sentence to mean that Teigas understood that when not in HSS mode, the flash duration will be shorter at lower power settings (e.g. 1/16 - 1/128) than at full power, or levels closer to it (e.g. 1/2 to 1/8).

Yes, I concur. If that is what Teigis meant, then that is correct also.

And also I concur that using the Speedlite at very low power, will probably not make for a very good result because, the lower the power of the Flash the more difficult it is to render the Ambient Light irrelevant and the shorter the maximum working distance of the flash - which then means using a larger lens aperture and/or an higher ISO.

WW

Dave, on re-reading the sentence, your interpretation is more likely correct than mine - thanks for pointing that out.

[teigas]

Thank you for all your feedback. The light guy was sick, so we just used flashes. Now i have a little dilemma in editing. I am not sure what works best. These are sketches not finished crop wise white balance wise, masking etc. I can black everything out, or i can keep a little of the scene and the scene blanket in the background. The scene anchor them a little and the other picture is more clean. What do people think?

[Shadowman]

Thank you for all your feedback. The light guy was sick, so we just used flashes. Now i have a little dilemma in editing. I am not sure what works best. These are sketches not finished crop wise white balance wise, masking etc. I can black everything out, or i can keep a little of the scene and the scene blanket in the background. The scene anchor them a little and the other picture is more clean. What do people think?

I think for leaping captures either works as well. The black backgrounds gives it a weightless, magical feel, providing an anchor would give it more dimension and realism. Nice efforts.

[Dave Humphries]

Hi Teigas,

You seem to have succeeded on a couple of aspects, my only thought now is that with all that black, the flash from a single direction leaves the subjects very contrasty - perhaps a fill flash from another direction could be added?

Just a thought, Dave

[Manfred M]

The last two images do not work at all for me. We tend to call images like that "amputations". It looks like the dancer only has one leg, so photographically this does not give a very pleasing image.

[teigas]

Thank you Shadowman.

[teigas]

Hi Teigas,

You seem to have succeeded on a couple of aspects, my only thought now is that with all that black, the flash from a single direction leaves the subjects very contrasty - perhaps a fill flash from another direction could be added?

One some of them i had a Nikon Sb900 on the right side, on low power, but on the bottom one it did not trigger. But i will experiment more if i get the chance, we had limitied time. Thank you for the input.
Just a thought, Dave

[teigas]

Thank you for your feedback, is the pose of the foot, or is it the fact that its not so much ligjt on the foot, on the darkest one i just masked really quick so i think i erased the foot, since it was just to ask what would work best. The scene showing or just blacken the enviroment.

[Manfred M]

Thank you for your feedback, is the pose of the foot, or is it the fact that its not so much ligjt on the foot, on the darkest one i just masked really quick so i think i erased the foot, since it was just to ask what would work best. The scene showing or just blacken the enviroment.

The problem is that the dancer only seems to have one foot in the image. It looks very strange.

[teigas]

The problem is that the dancer only seems to have one foot in the image. It looks very strange.

I understand I will think about it next time i try to do similar stuff. But what do you prefear if you look at total black or keep some of the theather?