I see the Canon 60D has landed

[Colin Southern]

Some posters contend that the 1.6x format will die. However, I don't think so but, I think that with the advent of the 60D; the demise of the X0D line of cameras as an advanced amateur and professional tool is pretty well at hand.

Did I read correctly... NO HIGH SPEED SYNC SUPPORT? Plastic body?

In-camera raw development? Subject modes with 'Ambience Selection' (Standard, Vivid, Soft, Warm, Intense, Cool, Brighter, Darker and Monochrome)? In-camera Creative Filters (special effects)? I guess these would be OK for photographers who don't use Photoshop, PSE, or other editing programs.

Only one Custom Mode and no micro adjust?

5.3 FPS top burst speed?

I am wondering what is wrong with CF cards? I have been shooting with some CF cards for thousands upon thousands of exposures over a period of years and had only one fail me. That was soon after I purchased it...

Additionally what was wrong with the BP511A battery? I had absolutely no complaints with the BP511A batteries which I have been using in my D60, 10D, 30D and 40D cameras ever since I began using Canon DSLR cameras. This battery has never let me down. I wasn't happy that Canon changed this battery in the 7D. This would make shooting with a 40D or 50D plus, either a 7D or the new Rebel on Steroids (although it would be a cold day in Hades before I would buy a 60D) a slight bit of a logistical problem. Not one that couldn't be overcome but, a problem never-the-less because the photographer would need to ensure a supply of charged batteries of two different types and to carry a second type of charger on trips. I carry a pair of chargers because I believe in redundancy - that would mean four chargers two each for the two battery types.

The 60D is priced well above the Rebel line but hasn't a lot to recommend it to higher end users. Although some users might get all excited regarding the video, I am not.

I am saving my pennies (a lot of them) for the 7D or will keep shooting with my trusty 40D. The nice thing for 40D and 50D users is that the used prices of those cameras will keep relatively high because the 60D IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR EITHER OF THOSE CAMERAS!

Hi Richard,

I'm going to disagree with you

Re: HSS Support - no, it doesn't have it - but neither has any other xxD model, so it's not like we're losing anything (HSS is something you get with an external flash unit)

Re: "Plastic Body" - well I guess polycarbonate is a type of plastic (I'm not an expert on these things), but what I do know is that the polycarbonate bumpers on my car protect the vehicle a LOT better than metal bumpers ever did. Polycarbonate is tough, tough, tough ... it's not like the camera is made out of the same kind of plastic that McDonalds make their toys out of. So personally I don't associate "polycarbonate over metal" with "decrease in quality".

Re: In-camera RAW development - I personally wouldn't use it, but I imagine that one doesn't HAVE to use it.

Re: Subject modes / cretive filters etc - again I'm certain that we don't have to use them, so in essence they're just additional tools that are there for the use if we wish (or not) (just like a LOT of tools in Photoshop).

Re: Custom Mode - as a RAW shooter I probably wouldn't use it (not sure what it does to be honest)

Re: Micro-adjust - It's pretty much a high-end camera option, so again, nothing that they've taken away from the xxD line. My 1Ds3 has micro-adjust; I've had a play with it and (personally) find it to be more gimmick than useful (considering that the compensation required at one focal length may well be different to what's required at another; assuming zoom lenses of course). I've found correct capture sharpening makes a much bigger difference.

Re: CF Cards - my 1Ds3 take CF and SDHC cards, and I have to admit that I prefer handling CF cards - but at the end of the day, so long as the performance doesn't suffer (and it shouldn't with some of the never 30 mb/s and faster SD cards) then the two really aren't any different to handle in practice.

Re: Batteries - yep, the BP511A was a classic, but then again, so was the Volkswagon Beetle, the Mini, and the Morris Minor ... but I wouldn't want to be driving any of them for too long these days. Technology has moved on.

Re: comparison with xxxD - yep, it's definately priced higher -- always has been, always will be, as it's a different class of camera - especially in terms of ergonomics.

Re: comparison with 7D - I think people forget that the 7D is tantamount to a 1.6x crop-factor version of a 1D series camera - hence the performance and price differences between the xxD and xD range.

So in summary, I think that the 60D was pretty much as expected - an evolution of the 50D; I still see it as holding a rightful position in the pro-sumer range; a definate step above xxxD, and a definate step below xD. Sure, they've added more tools (cough, "gimmicks"), but haven't taken anything away. So not "dumbed down" (as someone else said) so much as "added additional smarts" that no doubt some will use, and a lot won't.

I really can't say I can see any signs why the xxD range might be on the way out.

[rpcrowe]

The 40D controls the HSS on my 270EX flash. I cannot access the HSS without the interface with the 40D. HSS cannot be accessed using my 30D camera.

The 50D has micro adjust.

[Colin Southern]

[QUOTE=rpcrowe;56841]The 40D controls the HSS on my 270EX flash. I cannot access the HSS without the interface with the 40D. HSS cannot be accessed using my 30D camera.

I agree, but doesn't the 60D have this?

The 50D has micro adjust.

Ah - OK. A I say, I never use it ... might be something I'd use if there was an automatic way of setting it (in fact I think there is with Helicon Remote), but when I played with it on my 1Ds3 I found that the results were somewhat subjective, and that I - possibly - could see a small improvement at one end of the zoom range of my original EF70-200, but it swung the other way at the other end of the zoom range ... but either way, capture sharpening produced the biggest improvement of all, by far. Perhaps it's something Canon don't have a great deal of interest in either?

[rpcrowe]

The reviews which I read state no support for HSS... Another thing I don't like about this camera is that there are fewer controls you can manipulate through the buttons on the camera and more controls you need to manipulate using the menu - right back to the Rebel concept.

DPReview states, "With the 60D Canon has unashamedly moved the X0D range out of the 'semi pro' bracket and instead focused on the enthusiast photographer looking to upgrade from their Rebel. As a result, it's not the obvious continuation of the 30D - 40D - 50D pattern that its naming might suggest. Rather than being a direct upgrade replacement for the 50D, it's perhaps better understood as a Super Rebel."

I was quite disappointed. I expected that the 60D would come out as an upgrade of the 50D. I was waiting to see if the new camera had enough bells and whistles convince me to upgrade my 40D. Like I said in an earlier post... I am going to buy a 7D. Sure it uses the new batteries but it hasn't stepped back at all. The reviews are actually pretty thrilling to me. The prices of the three (non 1D) Canon camera lines from Adorama in New York City (in U.S currency) are $800 for a new T2i, $1,100 for a new 60D, and $1,400 for a Canon refurbished 7D with a 90-day Canon warranty and a 1-year Adorama warranty. I have actually more confidence in the quality control of the refurbished Canon cameras (I bought 2 of these and am very satisfied) than of the quality control of the new cameras which come off the Canon assembly line (I bought two of these also and had to send each in for service before 90 days).

I think that if I were making a choice for a first camera, I would either choose the T2i or, like I am going to do, buy the 7D.

[Colin Southern]

The reviews which I read state no support for HSS... Another thing I don't like about this camera is that there are fewer controls you can manipulate through the buttons on the camera and more controls you need to manipulate using the menu - right back to the Rebel concept.

Possibly a case of the more functionality that they add, the more they "run out of buttons" to enable it directly. Perhaps the question I'd ask myself is "although there may be fewer controls, are the ones I actually use still readily accessable) (mode selection, index wheel, QCD, ISO select, AF mode, drive mode, image review etc).

DPReview states, "With the 60D Canon has unashamedly moved the X0D range out of the 'semi pro' bracket and instead focused on the enthusiast photographer looking to upgrade from their Rebel. As a result, it's not the obvious continuation of the 30D - 40D - 50D pattern that its naming might suggest. Rather than being a direct upgrade replacement for the 50D, it's perhaps better understood as a Super Rebel."

Although keeping in mind that this is also just one reviewers opinion. Many of us are resistant to change and can see things in a negative light when it's forced upon us ... only to accept it as completely normal and understandable a few years later (I remember hating WinXP when I used Win2K, then hating Vista when I used WinXP (mind you, now that Win7 is out, I STILL hate Vista!).

I was quite disappointed. I expected that the 60D would come out as an upgrade of the 50D.

I'm sure that many will consider that it has.

I was waiting to see if the new camera had enough bells and whistles convince me to upgrade my 40D. Like I said in an earlier post... I am going to buy a 7D. Sure it uses the new batteries but it hasn't stepped back at all.

And I'm sure that the 7D will be a darn fine camera. Incidentally, I understand that it uses the same battery as the 60D, so either way you're going to have to move on from the BP511A

The reviews are actually pretty thrilling to me. The prices of the three (non 1D) Canon camera lines from Adorama in New York City (in U.S currency) are $800 for a new T2i, $1,100 for a new 60D, and $1,400 for a Canon refurbished 7D with a 90-day Canon warranty and a 1-year Adorama warranty. I have actually more confidence in the quality control of the refurbished Canon cameras (I bought 2 of these and am very satisfied) than of the quality control of the new cameras which come off the Canon assembly line (I bought two of these also and had to send each in for service before 90 days).

I don't disagree at all - but - in terms of market positioning, the 7D is positioned as a more up-market and more expensive camera, although - of course - you only need be concerned with the deal that YOU can get, and the refurbished option sweetens the pot considerably.

I think that if I were making a choice for a first camera, I would either choose the T2i or, like I am going to do, buy the 7D.

Until they put a QCD on the xxxD line, I'll NEVER be considering one

Interestingly, a collegue of mine has just cancelled his order for a 7D with Canon, and is instead planning on purchasing a 60D - simply because (as a wedding photographer) he wants a backup camera with video capability, and the 60D gives him that at a lower cost (and he already has a 1D3 & 5D2!). I'll grab it for a day when he gets it and have a play

[rpcrowe]

Yep! The 7D uses the new battery (darn!) but, at least it uses the same CF cards... However, the advantages of the 7D loom so large, that I will bite the bullet regarding the battery... On the other hand, if I were shooting HD video (which I don't) I would very much like to use a 1-TB SD card and have a longer lasting battery.

Video to me is work. I shot and directed motion pictures for many, many years in the Navy. To tell you the truth, I was always a better cinematographer that a still photographer and probably would still be if I were willing to put the effort into it. However, still photography is relaxing and fun for me while (GOOD) motion pictures/video is a lot of work from planning to shooting to editing. I can make an analogy regarding the difference between still and motion picture photography to me. Still photography is like cribbage to me. It's a lot of fun, takes some brainpower but doesn't exhaust me. Motion pictures/video is like the game of bridge. I work so hard at it that it is not fun any longer.

Actually, I never wanted to shoot either motion pictures or video without getting paid for it. It was an enjoyable way to make a living, I won some nice awards and I saw a lot of things that I would never have seen if I wasn't a combat cameraman/cinematographer but, it was never something that I would do as a hobby.

I also absolutely could not shoot motion pictures at the same time as stills... The mindsets are so different to me that one or the other was bound to suffer - probably both.

[Colin Southern]

the advantages of the 7D loom so large, that I will bite the bullet regarding the battery

Ah one day we'll get you paired up with a 1D series camera

[Sunray]

Hello,

is it true, that the 60D does not have AF in live view mode while the 50D has or did I get something wrong in the camera tec specs? Personally I am a liitle bit disapointed in the 60D, because I do not see useful enhancements compared to the 50D. I am a little bit doubtful about pressing 18MP on a APS-C sensor size. What about diffraction at smaller apertures ? Mayebe it is a good time now to get a 50D less expensive for people that won't have the money to buy a xD series camera.

cu
Robert

P.S.
I am a happy 40D user.

[Dave Humphries]

As a Nikon user, it amuses me (but not in an unkind way) that people were saying similar of the 50D when that came out and how they'd stick with 40D

Either Canon users are a tough bunch to satisfy, or Canon really are just not giving logical product line improvements (perhaps with exception of the xxxD series, but then they mostly appeal to non-Canon DSLR users).

Possibly they do this as a means to get DSLR users to jump 'up' a level rather than replace within range.

In fact, why is there a perception that a new model in a range should be so much better that users of last years would immediately want to go and buy one? It generally wouldn't happen with a car, would it? If you want a better camera (or bigger car), you go up a model range to achieve that, not just buy this year's model of what you got last time, or maybe the technology improvements are slowing.

I'm waffling and I should be cutting the grass

[Eric M]

The 60D has gotten off to a rocky start because Canon backed the specs down from the 50D and seem to be more concerned with optimizing for video than producing a great still camera. This is a trend I hope doesn't continue. One of the polls on another forum has several hundred votes and is running 86% against the 60D.

Canon's plan is to push the prosumer photogs into a camera that costs $500 more than they were paying. Honestly, I like the 7D, but the 50D meets my needs just fine. When I need high ISO performance, I grab the 5D2.

[Colin Southern]

The 60D has gotten off to a rocky start because Canon backed the specs down from the 50D

Out of interest, how many specs have they backed down?

[Dave Humphries]

Out of interest, how many specs have the backed down?

This, at DPReview seems to provide most answers (comparing 50D to 60D, third and first columns resp.).

1) fps; 6.3 > 5.3
2) change of memory card format from CF to SD (is that worse? I use SDHC ok)

That's about it I think, unless you include adding the movie feature

Maybe I missed something?

I'm waffling and I should be cutting the grass

I have now done the grass

[Colin Southern]

This, at DPReview seems to provide most answers (comparing 50D to 60D, third and first columns resp.).

1) fps; 6.3 > 5.3
2) change of memory card format from CF to SD (is that worse? I use SDHC ok)

That's about it I think, unless you include adding the movie feature

Maybe I missed something?

Not a very long list (and yes, I'd argue that the 2nd items shouldn't even be on it; I like CF cards too, but at the end of the day, SD is physically smaller and there are no pins to bend).

Speed wise you'll notice that the bandwidth requirements remain identical, so perhaps a limitation of DIGIC 4 (just a guess - the 1Ds3 & 4 have higher throughput, but thay also have dual chips).

So personally, I think it's getting a bit of a bad rap; compared to the 50D they ...

- added pixels
- added a movie mode
- added speedlight control
- reduced weight
- Upped the max ISO
- Went from 35 to 63 metering zones
- Increased viewfinder coverage
- Increased the pixel count in the review screen and made it moveable
- Added additional in-camera processing
- Added more image sizes
- Increased exposure compensation range
- Added dual-axis electronic level (which I suggested to Canon that they incorporate leveling info into EXIF data for optional automatic leveling in PP).

... All this and people are saying it's a dumbing down of the line. Seriously, I just don't get it.

[Dave Humphries]

- Added dual-axis electronic level (which I suggested to Canon that they incorporate leveling info into EXIF data for optional automatic leveling in PP).

Anyone got a shot from a 60D to see what's in the EXIF yet?

Great idea though Colin.

[Colin Southern]

Anyone got a shot from a 60D to see what's in the EXIF yet?

Great idea though Colin.

One of about a dozen I've passed on to Chuck ... and he's passed onto the design team ... that I'm still waiting for

[arith]

I think the 7D is the continuation upgrade for XXD cropped camera's and the 60D priced just as high as an XXD is just for mugs. Has it got a plastic shutter, I'm not bothered anyway mine is insured and should I unfortunately lose it, I'm not having a 60D I would prefer to have the money. If I wanted plastic menu driven drivel I would save myself a lot of dosh and get a 550D.

What's is the betting that there is a 7D MK II, and the 7D was never a professional camera, the 1D MK IV is the obvious choice for a professional cropped camera.

[Eric M]

Out of interest, how many specs have they backed down?

Off the top of my head...

• Plastic Body
• No MA
• Slower FPS
• SD card
• Swivel screen (video)
• No Joystick
• No PC Sync Port

The 60D is clearly a downgrade to consumer level, a "super rebel" of sorts. It is positioned more along the lines of Nikon's D90. Canon compromised still photography functionality for the sake of video (flip screen, no joystick). They are forcing the prosumer customer up to the 7D at approx $500 more. The 50D is a no frills (to a large extent, minus marketing gimics like "CA" mode), stills only prosumer camera. It offered reasonable speed (6.3fps), nice build, high resolution and a nice feature set. It was the last of a great line of cameras in the xxD line. I am glad to have one.

I wonder if Chuck might be interested in this... http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=923430 Out of 527 polled, 86% don't want the 60D.

[Colin Southern]

Off the top of my head...

• Plastic Body
• No MA
• Slower FPS
• SD card
• Swivel screen (video)
• No Joystick
• No PC Sync Port

The 60D is clearly a downgrade to consumer level, a "super rebel" of sorts. It is positioned more along the lines of Nikon's D90. Canon compromised still photography functionality for the sake of video (flip screen, no joystick). They are forcing the prosumer customer up to the 7D at approx $500 more. The 50D is a no frills (to a large extent, minus marketing gimics like "CA" mode), stills only prosumer camera. It offered reasonable speed (6.3fps), nice build, high resolution and a nice feature set. It was the last of a great line of cameras in the xxD line. I am glad to have one.

Hmmm ...

- Not "plastic body" so much as "Polycarbonate body" which is lighter and may well do a better job of protecting the camera. Keeping in mind that we had metal bumpers on our cars long before "plastic" bumbers came along, but which would you prefer now? Which one protects the car better? I'd call the polycarbonate body a plus, although somewhat reluctantly.

- Was / is MA of any practical use anyway, or just a poor substitute for bad lens calibration & an ineffective compensation for lack of effective capture sharpening? I have MA on my 1Ds3 - don't use it, don't need it.

- Is a slightly slower FPS of any real-world significance (possibly an unavoidable consequence of a higher MP count as the bandwidth remains the same)? It's still faster than my NZD $12,000 1Ds3!

- Why is an SD card in anyway inferior to a CF card? Both are a lot faster than the camera, but the SD card is smaller and there's no chance of breaking / bending pins in the holder. So I'd argue it's different, not worse (and if anything, slightly better)

- Why is a swivel screen a step backwards - as far as I can tell, you don't have to use it that way.

- The joystick has been incorporated into the new Multi Control Dial for better ergonomics than the 50D, so that's a step forward, not back.

- My 1Ds3 has a PC port and I NEVER use it; the 60D has a built in flash controller for "indoor" flash master operation, and for outdoor / longer range work then radio transmitters are a far better option (no cords to trip over - no distance worries - no problem to control multiply lights) plus, one can easily add a hot shoe to PC converter if one wishes.

I suspect the reaction to the 60D is possibly just more of a protest against change; "It's not just bigger numbers compared to the 50D, it's also "different" - and so it takes us outside of our comfort zone ... and we photographers don't like going outside of our comfort zone!"

[Eric M]

Hmmm ...

- Not "plastic body" so much as "Polycarbonate body" which is lighter and may well do a better job of protecting the camera. Keeping in mind that we had metal bumpers on our cars long before "plastic" bumbers came along, but which would you prefer now? Which one protects the car better?

- Was / is MA of any practical use anyway, or just a poor substitute for bad lens calibration & an ineffective compensation for lack of effective capture sharpening?

- Is a slightly slower FPS of any real-world significance (possibly an unavoidable consequence of a higher MP count as the bandwidth remains the same)

- Why is an SD card in anyway inferior to a CF card? Both are a lot faster than the camera, but the SD card is smaller and there's no chance of breaking / bending pins in the holder. So I'd argue it's different, not worse (and if anything, slightly better)

- Why is a swivel screen a step backwards?

- The joystick has been incorporated into the new Multi Control Dial for better ergonomics than the 50D, so that's a step forward, not back.

- My 1Ds3 has a PC port and I NEVER use it; the 60D has a built in flash controller for "indoor" flash master operation, and for outdoor / longer range work then radio transmitters are a far better option (no cords to trip over - no distance worries - no problem to control multiply lights) plus, one can easily add a hot shoe to PC converter is one wishes.

As a user of the xxD series Canon has produced a camera with features I (and many others, apparently) don't like. As a former Rebel user, I don't like plastic cameras. MA is useful in certain circumstances. I once had a 24-70L get "out of tune". The lens was useable, but not producing top results. Guess what? I had several shoots scheduled with old (80+) iron miners from an oral history program to shoot protraits of at the ruins of the mines they worked at 60 years ago. My 40D didn't have MA and I certainly wish I'd had that option because I didn't have time to send the lens in. As it turned out, I stopped the lens down and got decent shots (could have been better for a project of this importance). I don't buy "upgraded" cameras to lose things like frame rate. I don't like SD cards. They are tiny and more difficult to use in the field (often with cold fingers). I have CF cards already... The swivel screen is extra complexity on a camera for still photography. It will be more delicate and difficult to seal. No thanks. I like the joystick controller as it was. It is a familiar control us Canon users have enjoyed for years. Now its gone (but hey, we now have room for a swivel screen to shoot video ). I have used the PC sync port on occasion. Many strobists do.

As a customer, I don't like the 60D or the direction Canon is taking the xxD line. I don't like losing functionality for still photography in the name of video. In fact, I have no use for video at all in a personal dSLR.

Colin, please don't be offended by the wording here. The tone is not intended to be directed at you, but quite honestly, after waiting on the 60D for months, I'm not at all happy with Canon. Bottom line... No Sale.

[arith]

I heard the 1Ds MK IV was to be a polycarbonate wotsit with menus I don't think so.