Advice To Take A Group Photo

[bertam]

A friend asked me if I would take a photo of the kids in his class. There are about 30 kids in the class
and the photo will be taken either in the classroom or outside in a bright sunny environment. Any advice
would be very appreciated. I have a sony A7 M2 and two lenses both sony, 28-70 & 70-300.

If any further 'tools' are suggested, I don't mind buying them because i'm building up my equipment
from scratch.

[Shadowman]

Tripod, off- camera flash for both indoor/outdoor shooting, perhaps an assistant if using reflectors, consider backdrops if nothing interesting or too distracting in both locations.

[Manfred M]

I don't know. Frankly I don't tend to do these types of images, but like all other aspects of photography, it's about the light and the setting. The classroom might be too dark and bright sunlight is definitely not a good thing either. Outside shade might work the best.



Panasonic GX7 with Lumix 14-140mm lens. ISO 200, f/5.6 at 1/250th second using a 25mm (50mm full-frame equivalent) focal length.

The teacher had lined up the class during a trip to the butterfly house while I was passing by and I just snapped the shot. No special equipment at all and I'm willing to bet that my shot ended up being better than the one the teacher took. This is an outdoor shot.

[AlwaysOnAuto]

I realize Manfred's shot wasn't the 'official' shot of that class, but it does point out a very important point, at least to me. Get them ALL to look at the camera. Maybe allow for one or two 'goofy face' pictures, but stress to them that in later years they'll really appreciate it more if all are looking right at the camera.

[Manfred M]

Alan - if you have ever tried to take a group photo, the situation is akin to herding cats. Besides, I find the goofy faces to add interest to what is otherwise a fairly boring shot. At least it gives you something to talk about later on.

[William W]

Around 50mm Focal Length on a "Full Frame Camera" is good for a group of 12 to 40. Pack them tight but comfortably and the PERSPECTIVE attained when filling the frame using a 50mm lens is visually attractive and also provides a good a SUBJECT DISTANCE for Direction and also a reasonable chance of being withing the Maximum Working Distance to use a ONE SPEEDLITE Flash, as the Fill Light (outside); and Flash as Key Light (inside)

I use a Tripod for Group Portraiture - not for stability of the camera: but so I can frame the shot and then stand away from the viewfinder being able to see and then direct all the heads and eyes toward the barrel of the lens.

If you do not have Flash and are not versed in its use then Open Shade (as per Manfred's example) will probably be the easiest unless the Classroom has reasonably bright DIFFUSED SUNlight. Note Manfred's Shutter Speed - don't go slower than 1/250s: 1/320s is safer; 1/400s is safer still for Available Light Group Portraits.

If you do choose to use Flash then you really need to understand what you are doing. Shooting inside, the Flash will usually be the Key Light, but shooting Outside the Flash will usually be the Fill Light. Both scenarios present (possible) challenges to the novice: inside you need to have enough even spread of Flash to avoid hard shadows and on camera Flash and Ceiling or Large White Card BOUNCE MODIFIER using ONE Speedlite is the simplest technique. Using Multiple Flash Heads and DIFFUSION MODIFIERS is more complex but if done correctly can make excellent results. More complex again is to (sometimes) gel the Flash (or the windows) and shoot with a mixture of window Light and Flash making the exposure, (sometimes dragging the shutter) - I would not suggest this technique for a school group this technique is more for the "artistic" portraiture to capture the room 'ambience'.

Outside in Hard Sun or Open Shade, Direct Flash is is most common technique. The main issue when shooting in Hard Sun is the lack of necessary the power to 'Fill" using a single Speedlite Flash - As a Rule of Thumb you need the (most powerful) 'Speeldite' Flash to be situated at about 4mtrs (12ft) or closer to the group for the Flash to have even a minor effect as Fill Light when shooting in Hard Sun.

If you do shoot outside then early to mid-morning or mid to late-afternoon will be the more creative time apropos The Light - but for Portraiture of School Children (and any group really) - early to mid-morning is the very best time, because you have the best chance of the maximum number of Subjects being neat, tidy, happy and focused on the job at hand.

*

Here are some illustrations of various techniques:



The above is shot early-mid morning with sun behind the Subjects and on Camera Flash as Fill - at this time of day and with the assistance of a light cloud cover, it is well before the sun is at it strongest - that means the AMBIENT exposure is around EV = 13 and that means the Flash does not need to work as hard for the Front Fill - 50mm on Canon 5D Series camera.

*



Moving inside and a very high ceiling meant it was impossible to using the Ceiling for BOUNCE - and in this situation a LARGE WHITE BOUNCE CARD was used for the Key Light and to balance the bright sunlight coming through the windows at the rear. A 24mm Lens on a Canon 5D Series was used - a wide lens was necessary to allow the (on camera) Flash close enough to have enough power to balance the hard sunlight streaming through the windows at the rear and also a wide lens was required to get the camera high enough to avoid any noticeable Flash Fall Off through the group, front to back.

*



Inside with a ceiling low enough for on camera single Speedlite CEILING BOUNCE. Note the area of Flash illumination is a different Colour Temperature to the background - this is good for a small group and usually for Group Portraits which are in a "less formal setting" - Probably this would not be a good idea for a classroom - so if you shoot with Flash in the classroom, then consider turning off the ceiling lights especially if they are FLUORESCENT or other domestic lights with a strong/obnoxious COLOUR CAST. Just allow DIFFUSED window SUNlight to be the Ambient Light in the room and balance the AMBIENT EXPOSURE to be about ½Stop to 1Stop under the FLASH EXPOSURE and that will give a nice "POP" to the Group as they contrast against the slightly darker background - per the example above.

*



This is inside using only the ambient light - notice the lighting is quite flat - which can be good for a big group because there will be no hard shadows imposing on faces of their neighboring Subjects -

*



And this is an example of the lighting that you do NOT want for a Group Portrait – whilst the definition, depth and modelling created from the hard sunlight can be used to enhance the dynamics of a Portrait of Single Subject – we run into all sorts of trouble with hard shadows falling on faces when making a Group Portrait – so – returning to the beginning and as per Manfred’s example use a nice area in Open Shade.

WW

All Images © AJ Group Pty Ltd Aust 1996~2016 WMW 1965~1996

[Manfred M]

Bill - while you have given some excellent guidance here, I have a slightly different viewpoint.

Rather than throwing out a lot of options to someone who has little or no experience shooting this type of shot, I tend to use the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid) approach by going for a technique that should be simple to handle from a technical and compositional standpoint, to take away the stress of shooting in new and unknown environment. An outdoor shot in open shade is about as simple as things get.

I do like your technique of using the tripod (as you can nail the framing) as you "herd the cats" into a correct pose. I would add a remote release to the equation as that lets the photographer fire without looking for the shutter release (it in his hand). This has the added benefit of the subjects not knowing that the picture is being taken.

Bertram - when Bill and I write about "open shade", it is the shade cast by a building or other large object, with open sky right above you. The subjects are in the shade which eliminates you having to fight with harsh shadows.

[rpcrowe]

Here are a couple of additional tips...

Try to organize your group in a slight concave arc rather than a straight line across the frame. That way, all of the subjects will be approximately the same distance from the camera (rather than the center subjects being closer than the edge subjects). This will help focus and will also even exposure, especially if flash is used. It will also help even out the relative sizes of the subjects - especially if you need to use a wider focal length.

I like to shoot from a relatively high angle because this will even out the distance between the camera and the rows of subjects, facilitating focus and even flash lighting (if used). When I did a lot of group shooting (that was in the days of film and I have no examples) I used an 9-foot folding ladder with a tripod head attached to the top step. I would frame the group (allowing room on either side and top and bottom for eventual cropping) and fire the camera using a corded shutter release. Now cordless releases are available and would be great for groups.

If I were shooting digitally today, I would have the camera in slow burst mode (if I were not using flash). I would always try to shoot a series of shots with the same poses and framing so, if necessary, I could switch heads between images...

Having a helper with whom the group is familiar and discussing my needs with this person beforehand really helps. This is especially helpful with kids. The helper can look for any irregularities such as "Devil's Horns" or eyes closes and tongues out...

I would try not to use extreme wide angle lenses in shooting group shots because of the distortion inherent in the distances used when shooting with these lenses. A 35mm focal length is great for full frame cameras while a 35mm equivalent would be good for crop cameras. This focal length would reduce distortion.

I never did this (because it was not common in film post-processing) but, some photographers shoot two or three shot panos of groups with slightly longer focal lengths. Since I have no experience in this technique, I will leave it for someone else to expand upon.

Steps (such as a church or courthouse) are great for shooting groups since that allows posing on several levels...

Having a group with one row standing one row sitting or kneeling and possibly one row on the floor or ground (O.K. for young folks but not dignified for older subjects) allows a shorter line of subjects.

Having the center person full on to the camera with persons to each side standing at about a 45 degree angle (facing towards the center) will also reduce the length of the line of subjects.

Getting used to handling a group of adults or kids is really helpful. Knowing what you want them to do and being able to communicate that succinctly is also helpful. Subjects, especially kids, get bored and lose interest quickly.

Scouting the environment prior to shooting is really helpful - look for a background which is not busy and an area in which you have enough room to pose the group and to shoot...

[bertam]

Around 50mm Focal Length on a "Full Frame Camera" is good for a group of 12 to 40. Pack them tight but comfortably and the PERSPECTIVE attained when filling the frame using a 50mm lens is visually attractive and also provides a good a SUBJECT DISTANCE for Direction and also a reasonable chance of being withing the Maximum Working Distance to use a ONE SPEEDLITE Flash, as the Fill Light (outside); and Flash as Key Light (inside)

I use a Tripod for Group Portraiture - not for stability of the camera: but so I can frame the shot and then stand away from the viewfinder being able to see and then direct all the heads and eyes toward the barrel of the lens.

If you do not have Flash and are not versed in its use then Open Shade (as per Manfred's example) will probably be the easiest unless the Classroom has reasonably bright DIFFUSED SUNlight. Note Manfred's Shutter Speed - don't go slower than 1/250s: 1/320s is safer; 1/400s is safer still for Available Light Group Portraits.

If you do choose to use Flash then you really need to understand what you are doing. Shooting inside, the Flash will usually be the Key Light, but shooting Outside the Flash will usually be the Fill Light. Both scenarios present (possible) challenges to the novice: inside you need to have enough even spread of Flash to avoid hard shadows and on camera Flash and Ceiling or Large White Card BOUNCE MODIFIER using ONE Speedlite is the simplest technique. Using Multiple Flash Heads and DIFFUSION MODIFIERS is more complex but if done correctly can make excellent results. More complex again is to (sometimes) gel the Flash (or the windows) and shoot with a mixture of window Light and Flash making the exposure, (sometimes dragging the shutter) - I would not suggest this technique for a school group this technique is more for the "artistic" portraiture to capture the room 'ambience'.

Outside in Hard Sun or Open Shade, Direct Flash is is most common technique. The main issue when shooting in Hard Sun is the lack of necessary the power to 'Fill" using a single Speedlite Flash - As a Rule of Thumb you need the (most powerful) 'Speeldite' Flash to be situated at about 4mtrs (12ft) or closer to the group for the Flash to have even a minor effect as Fill Light when shooting in Hard Sun.

If you do shoot outside then early to mid-morning or mid to late-afternoon will be the more creative time apropos The Light - but for Portraiture of School Children (and any group really) - early to mid-morning is the very best time, because you have the best chance of the maximum number of Subjects being neat, tidy, happy and focused on the job at hand.

*

Here are some illustrations of various techniques:



The above is shot early-mid morning with sun behind the Subjects and on Camera Flash as Fill - at this time of day and with the assistance of a light cloud cover, it is well before the sun is at it strongest - that means the AMBIENT exposure is around EV = 13 and that means the Flash does not need to work as hard for the Front Fill - 50mm on Canon 5D Series camera.

*



Moving inside and a very high ceiling meant it was impossible to using the Ceiling for BOUNCE - and in this situation a LARGE WHITE BOUNCE CARD was used for the Key Light and to balance the bright sunlight coming through the windows at the rear. A 24mm Lens on a Canon 5D Series was used - a wide lens was necessary to allow the (on camera) Flash close enough to have enough power to balance the hard sunlight streaming through the windows at the rear and also a wide lens was required to get the camera high enough to avoid any noticeable Flash Fall Off through the group, front to back.

*



Inside with a ceiling low enough for on camera single Speedlite CEILING BOUNCE. Note the area of Flash illumination is a different Colour Temperature to the background - this is good for a small group and usually for Group Portraits which are in a "less formal setting" - Probably this would not be a good idea for a classroom - so if you shoot with Flash in the classroom, then consider turning off the ceiling lights especially if they are FLUORESCENT or other domestic lights with a strong/obnoxious COLOUR CAST. Just allow DIFFUSED window SUNlight to be the Ambient Light in the room and balance the AMBIENT EXPOSURE to be about ½Stop to 1Stop under the FLASH EXPOSURE and that will give a nice "POP" to the Group as they contrast against the slightly darker background - per the example above.

*



This is inside using only the ambient light - notice the lighting is quite flat - which can be good for a big group because there will be no hard shadows imposing on faces of their neighboring Subjects -

*



And this is an example of the lighting that you do NOT want for a Group Portrait – whilst the definition, depth and modelling created from the hard sunlight can be used to enhance the dynamics of a Portrait of Single Subject – we run into all sorts of trouble with hard shadows falling on faces when making a Group Portrait – so – returning to the beginning and as per Manfred’s example use a nice area in Open Shade.

WW

All Images © AJ Group Pty Ltd Aust 1996~2016 WMW 1965~1996

Thank you for the effort you have put into this really helpful response.

[William W]

Hi Manfred,

I agree with KISS approach if one is not experienced or skilled at a particular task - taking small steps at the beginning of any learning experience is a good idea.

KISS is a very good way to learn and harness skills.

However, as you open up the topic of the whether a commentary should or should not provide a "range of options" - it is worthwhile mentioning the following to provide better clarity to Post #6

The opening post neither mentions "lack of experience" nor "little experience" nor, for that matter does it give any details of the experience and or skill in this type of shoot nor any details in the skill and experience in photography generally or specifically about the Opening Poster: but it does ask for "advice" about a particular type of shoot.

Hence, without making any assumption about skill level or experience, a broad range of advice was given: that advice was notably tempered with caveat advice such as (two examples only, my bold now for emphasis):

"If you do not have Flash and are not versed in its use then Open Shade (as per Manfred's example) will probably be the easiest"

"If you do choose to use Flash then you really need to understand what you are doing."

I understand and agree that it is good to take the opportunity to reiterate that KISS (i.e. using outdoor open shade) is the best option if one does not have much experience with Flash and/or Group Portraiture.

***

But, in a nutshell, my viewpoint is when considering a response to an Opening Post asking for "advice", I try to provide a broad range of advice, without making any assumptions concerning the abilities skills or experience of the questioner which are not stated in their question and without making any assumption concerning the ability of the questioner to read the details of the advice and then make appropriate choices of what is and is not applicable to them.

WW

Addendum -

I also think that it is good that CiC forums usually offer a range of different approaches, personalities, points of view and writing styles - this is especially useful for new members, because it is more likely that they will initially "latch onto" a particular style of response which best suites them.

Then - if the new Member hangs around for long enough they will get to understand the diversity and nuance of the wide variety of people who frequent CiC.

[chauncey]

The only addition that I would make, assuming you use PS, is to take numerous images in the
event that one needs to swap-out closed eyes/lack of smiles/whatnot.

[barrydoig]

The only comment I would make is to take plenty of shots. Take a soft toy with you. Camera on tripod, use a remote release. In the first image the children may 'pose' and it may look unnatural. Take it anyway and when they are more settled take more. Don't ask them to say 'cheese'. Just wave the toy to get their attention and shoot lots.
Barry

[Shanghai Steve]

Well obviously we all have to work with what we've got, both in experience and equipment as well as venue. Not to mention the age of the kids, which might affect quite a lot. If they are 5 years old, they will obviously take up a lot less space than a bunch of 17 year old hockey players.
Depending on the age and temperament of the kids, not to mention the time the school has allocated to taking the photograph, you could face a large array of situations. Bear in mind that most group school photos will have been taken either with a smartphone or by a paid photographer anxious to earn his fee, with tripods and all the rest, possibly resulting in a very long, drawn-out process. The last group shot I was involved in was as a subject and it was a really big deal, as the Commander of the Shanghai Garrison (gulp!) was presenting awards. Anyway, it took an aaage and the end result was...a perfectly ordinary shot of around 100 cold, bored, adults.
The most important thing is to keep it fun, making it as quick and painless as possible. Go in informally, preferably before the day of the shoot and scout the location, trying to find a decent backdrop, checking there will be no painful shadows at the time you can shoot, given the height and position of the sun, then check the weather reports for the day. A relaxed, daylight group shot on the bleachers or assembly hall with everyone looking happy and fresh is, I am sure, what the school is wanting. I never did group shots, but for a while in my previous city, I was the unofficial school photographer. Mind you, my shots tended to look like this!









I have found only a tiny percentage of parents object to a photograph of their child being happy, but the school might want to use the shot for official purposes. It is important to find out what it is for

[rpcrowe]

I only use this with adults, and then it has to be a group of adults whose mores I am acquainted with.

A way to guarantee a smile is to tell the audience, "Say (everyone will be geared up for the common instruction Say Cheese) Instead of cheese, I sometimes will tell the group "Say (pause slightly) SH*T"