Mini competitions

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Originally Posted by Didace

The bar for the monthly competitions has been set absurdly high by the very good photographers here. I don't feel my work belongs in the same pool as what is routinely entered. I would guess at least a few others feel the same.

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I don't know if I would describe the standard as absurdly high but most submissions are definitely better than what I can do at this stage. Hence my request at post #6 for better feedback on the results of the competition to make it a better learning tool.

Andre

Don't worry about me, Folks! I like trying to muddy the waters a bit...apart from being bitchy about it.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Playing devil's advocate, the relaxation allows members to use the P52 challenge in the way that suits them best; one/some had the declared intention of using it to regularise their improvement in PP skills.

... says he (me) with the staying power of a gnat on a lazy day :D


I guess what we need is for someone to give us a really hard time if we don't produce the shots weekly, so we have to make time in our busy lives, because the alternative is too 'uncomfortable' - so, do you want to 'partner up' and we'll nag each other to death? :)

That way, we don't have to be nasty to each other, just shame the other in to keeping up.

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Originally Posted by Round Tuit

I don't know if I would describe the standard as absurdly high but most submissions are definitely better than what I can do at this stage. Hence my request at post #6 for better feedback on the results of the competition to make it a better learning tool.

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Originally Posted by Round Tuit

The photos submitted for the monthly competitions are generally of a higher standard. They are excellent examples of the quality that can be achieved and so provide me with goals to strive for. I would however find it a more useful learning tool if more detailed voting results were given at the end of each competition. Either the total vote count and a percentage breakdown of each photo or simply the number of votes that each photo received would be very useful information. Assuming of course that it would not pose an undue burden on Donald.

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Hi Andre,

When I used to do a monthly Themed Competitions here, I used to ask for points for their 1st (3 pts), 2nd (2 pts) and 3rd (1 pt) choices, and then gave the results of first, second and third winners for the month, but also named anyone receiving more than 10 points (with their totals). The winner chose the Theme for a later month, but that often needed chasing up. Overall, it was something that proved quite onerous to organise, particularly for popular themes when there were many entries and when the winner was someone that joined, posted once and was never seen again!

The current monthly challenges are a single choice only, which makes things simpler to administer, but it was confusing for members when I was simultaneously running Themed challenges with three choices. Eventually I ran out of steam and people stopped asking for the Themed and we fell back to just the Monthly Challenge that Donald now runs. I have administered the P52s since (on and off).

Results varied quite a bit from month to month; in numbers of entries, numbers of voters, sometimes points were very evenly split, other times there were huge gaps between the leaders and the rest of the pack, you could rarely predict what was going to happen.

The reason I didn't give points totals (or votes/percentages) for everyone was that I felt it would be unhelpful for several members entering each month (and trying very hard), but receiving no points/votes due to the high quality of the winners.

As you acknowledge yourself, it is better to ask for critique, if that's what you want, because then it is relevant to your shot and wholly applicable.

The 'problem' with entering a challenge/competition is that whether you win depends largely on whether someone better than you enters an amazing (or cute) picture after you have - I see this even in the Mini Comps - someone posts a very good picture, then someone else posts a better one with the same subject right after. I guess the trick is to hold off and post the final picture (of 10) after you've seen how good the 'competition' is, choosing your subject wisely.

Maybe I shouldn't say this, but another good idea is to seek critique (and action any suggestions) before you enter a shot in a challenge - some already do this and it seems to help them get better scores.

Dave

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Originally Posted by Dave Humphries

Hi Andre,

When I used to do a monthly Themed Competitions here, I used to ask for points for their 1st (3 pts), 2nd (2 pts) and 3rd (1 pt) choices, and then gave the results of first, second and third winners for the month, but also named anyone receiving more than 10 points (with their totals). The winner chose the Theme for a later month, but that often needed chasing up. Overall, it was something that proved quite onerous to organise, particularly for popular themes when there were many entries and when the winner was someone that joined, posted once and was never seen again!

The current monthly challenges are a single choice only, which makes things simpler to administer, but it was confusing for members when I was simultaneously running Themed challenges with three choices. Eventually I ran out of steam and people stopped asking for the Themed and we fell back to just the Monthly Challenge that Donald now runs. I have administered the P52s since (on and off).

Results varied quite a bit from month to month; in numbers of entries, numbers of voters, sometimes points were very evenly split, other times there were huge gaps between the leaders and the rest of the pack, you could rarely predict what was going to happen.

The reason I didn't give points totals (or votes/percentages) for everyone was that I felt it would be unhelpful for several members entering each month (and trying very hard), but receiving no points/votes due to the high quality of the winners.

As you acknowledge yourself, it is better to ask for critique, if that's what you want, because then it is relevant to your shot and wholly applicable.

The 'problem' with entering a challenge/competition is that whether you win depends largely on whether someone better than you enters an amazing (or cute) picture after you have - I see this even in the Mini Comps - someone posts a very good picture, then someone else posts a better one with the same subject right after. I guess the trick is to hold off and post the final picture (of 10) after you've seen how good the 'competition' is, choosing your subject wisely.

Maybe I shouldn't say this, but another good idea is to seek critique (and action any suggestions) before you enter a shot in a challenge - some already do this and it seems to help them get better scores.

Dave

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Dave

Thanks for your detailed explanation of the various competitions.

I am not a competitive person for the simple reason that you pointed out; whether you win or not depends on what other people do! So I use the C & C to get feedback on photos that I feel need improvement. However, I do use the mini competitions to rate other members photos and compare my ratings to the result of the vote. I find this process helpful in developing my critical analysis skills. I would like to be able to do the same with the monthly competition because the entries are generally of a higher standard. I am not looking at changing the way that the competition is run but simply to make it possible to compare my judgement to the result of the vote.

I realize that this could be discouraging for those members who are competitive and end up at the back end of the pack. I would suspect however that they are very aware that there can only be one winner and they should be prepared for disappointment if they are intent on winning.

I would like to reiterate that if publishing more detailed results would impose an undue burden on Donald then I am quite happy with the status quo.

Andre

It's nice to read the comments from the moderators regarding the vision/intent of CiC. And in that vein IMO the "competitions" as structured achieve the overall intent of the site offering learning opportunities for us all. There are plenty of other sites out there if one needs to satisfy a competitive drive. For me personally the value of CiC relative to other sites is the focus on learning and the friendly nature of the membership here.

I'm a bit pressed at the moment due to events that have overtaken us but I had to make time to agree with Dan's comments. This site maintains quite a delicate balance and it works.

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Originally Posted by NorthernFocus

There are plenty of other sites out there if one needs to satisfy a competitive drive. For me personally the value of CiC relative to other sites is the focus on learning and the friendly nature of the membership here.

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Exactly the same for me.

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Originally Posted by Donald

Oh God, that's what was not meant to happen. It's not meant to be about competing at all and, indeed, the word competition isn't helpful. The only competition should be internal to each participant - to see evidence of his or her improvement being acknowledged by others.

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Then why do we vote and congratulate the winners?

Because that is important to some people?

For me the votes are feedback--if I get no votes I need to really look at my image. If I get a few votes I know someone else responded to my image and I also know that it is rare that my image will please everyone.

"Winning" is not important to me--but it is to some people.

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Originally Posted by Didace

Then why do we vote and congratulate the winners?

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Good question.

As I explained, multiple voting was intended to be a means to allow members to acknowledge the efforts/improvements of colleagues. You're not casting a vote for one image over another, but a vote to show appreciation of the image. You can vote for all 10 entries in each competition if you wish.

I went back and read some of the previous comments for awhile back and it seems there are two trains of thought regarding Mini Comps. One centers more around winning, and the other around showcasing. I think everyone who enters as with any posts made are already winners in that they are putting up a little bit of their soul for scrutiny by a variety of folks. Voting just reaffirms your belief in seeing if you've developed a keener eye or if other's think you have improved your eye. Showcasing like I said for myself is just another venue.

I think you can have both and simultaneously. I enter them just because it is a venue where I think I can show off my better work and, I guess to some degree, to see how it stacks up against other's work. Winning or losing (is that possible) is pretty much irrelevant as it is just another venue.

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Originally Posted by Donald

Good question.

As I explained, multiple voting was intended to be a means to allow members to acknowledge the efforts/improvements of colleagues. You're not casting a vote for one image over another, but a vote to show appreciation of the image. You can vote for all 10 entries in each competition if you wish.

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I think we got off track here. My original comment was in response to a post about the lower numbers entering the monthly contests.

I think the mini-comps are just fine and work the way they were intended. While I don't vote for more than one entry (I like to force myself to pick only one and have reasons why I think it's the best) people voting for multiples is a good thing and does show which pics people find worthy of note.

My only issues with the monthly competitions are the dwindling number of entries - I have no idea how to fix this - and for my own personal learning I'd like to see some commentary on the winners about how the shot was taken and processed. Right now it seems like the winners are announced and that's the last we hear about that month. The monthly comps always have some outstanding photos. I want to know how they were done.

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Originally Posted by Didace

I think we got off track here. My original comment was in response to a post about the lower numbers entering the monthly contests.

I think the mini-comps are just fine and work the way they were intended. While I don't vote for more than one entry (I like to force myself to pick only one and have reasons why I think it's the best) people voting for multiples is a good thing and does show which pics people find worthy of note.

My only issues with the monthly competitions are the dwindling number of entries - I have no idea how to fix this - and for my own personal learning I'd like to see some commentary on the winners about how the shot was taken and processed. Right now it seems like the winners are announced and that's the last we hear about that month. The monthly comps always have some outstanding photos. I want to know how they were done.

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I totally agree with you regarding furthering discussions and in order to do that you should engage all who enter, it doesn't matter whether they won or not; just dialogue with them and flesh out what you are seeking.

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Originally Posted by Didace

I'd like to see some commentary on the winners about how the shot was taken and processed...I want to know how they were done.

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Most of the entries are posted and discussed in a separate thread. If you look up the photographer's latest posts, you'll usually find the right one. Tedious but better than nothing.

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Originally Posted by Didace

- and for my own personal learning I'd like to see some commentary on the winners about how the shot was taken and processed. Right now it seems like the winners are announced and that's the last we hear about that month. The monthly comps always have some outstanding photos. I want to know how they were done.

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Have you tried asking?