Is my light meter relevant?

[Stagecoach]

Dave is correct that Nikon is way behind when it comes to displaying a histogram of LiveView. I first saw it at least five years ago on a camera made neither by Nikon nor Canon that was technologically inferior to and less expensive than my prosumer Nikon camera in every other way.

Mike, the D800 has the histogram in LiveView but it's something I have never used 'yet'

[pnodrog]

Mike, the D800 has the histogram in LiveView but it's something I have never used 'yet'

Took a bit of finding.. I wonder how many functions there are available that I never use?

[Manfred M]

I don't know about the other Nikon models, but I knew that the "live" histogram on the D800 can be seen when one hits the "info" button, while using LiveView. I wonder how close this is versus the meter reading?

Size wise, it's tiny (about the same size as the histogram I get on the screen / viewfinder on my Pany GX7) and I don't use it there either.

[Stagecoach]

I don't know about the other Nikon models, but I knew that the "live" histogram on the D800 can be seen when one hits the "info" button, while using LiveView. I wonder how close this is versus the meter reading?

Size wise, it's tiny (about the same size as the histogram I get on the screen / viewfinder on my Pany GX7) and I don't use it there either.

Manfred, seems mine is set up so that it shows all the time in LiveView, but it's small. I just did a test and I would say it's as good as your eysite and the light conditions

[dje]

Apologies to David for drifting a little off topic but I feel I should clarify a couple of things about my post 37 above. I was actually referring to exposure simulation in LV mode ie the view you get matches the view you will get when you make the capture.

This is not available on my D610 and I doubt that it is available on the crop cameras (except maybe the D500 ?). I'm not sure about the D750 but I do believe it is available on the D800/D810 ?

The same applies to the live view histogram.

Dave

[Stagecoach]

Apologies to David for drifting a little off topic but I feel I should clarify a couple of things about my post 37 above. I was actually referring to exposure simulation in LV mode ie the view you get matches the view you will get when you make the capture.

This is not available on my D610 and I doubt that it is available on the crop cameras (except maybe the D500 ?). I'm not sure about the D750 but I do believe it is available on the D800/D810 ?

The same applies to the live view histogram.

Dave

Dave, by 'exposure simulation' if you refer to the image shown in the LCD in LiveView going lighter/darker corresponding with the movement of the histogram shown also at the same time in the LCD moving right/left, it does on the D800.

[dje]

Dave, by 'exposure simulation' if you refer to the image shown in the LCD in LiveView going lighter/darker corresponding with the movement of the histogram shown also at the same time in the LCD moving right/left, it does on the D800.

Yes Grahame, if you are in manual LV mode and exposure simulation is happening, as you change the ss or aperture, the view should become brighter/darker and the histogram should change accordingly. This doesn't happen with the D610. Almost the reverse happens, the screen brightness adjusts itself to a somewhat constant value irrespective of what the actual light level is.

I use the term "exposure simulation" because it is a term used by Canon.

Dave

[dem]

Yes Grahame, if you are in manual LV mode and exposure simulation is happening, as you change the ss or aperture, the view should become brighter/darker and the histogram should change accordingly. This doesn't happen with the D610.

... it does on the D800.

Oh dear... This looks like the same "exposure preview" PITA all over again.

Fuji and Nikon
like two opposite sides
of the same river

EDIT. To clarify:

X-Pro1, D610 - the LCD in the manual mode does not reflect the actual exposure
X-T1, D800 - exposure preview/simulation is working, WYSIWYG.

[Stagecoach]

Oh dear... This looks like the same "exposure preview" PITA all over again.

Fuji and Nikon
like two opposite sides
of the same river

I'm lost Dem?

[Donald]

I'm lost Dem?

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

[Donald]

Indeed. Particularly those from Mark Wallace (for Adorama and independently) and by Joe Brady (for Sekonic and independently).

Just to come back on my own post (#35) on the question of learning how to get the best out of a Sekonic L-758DR meter.

Now that I have an idea about what I'm doing, I went back to the Manual to go over again what I've learned from the videos to which I referred in that previous post. I am staggered by how little the Manual tells you.

If you were to rely on the Manual as your source of instruction on how to use the meter, you would know very little about what it can do.

Now, I know we say the same about all manuals, but this is exceptional in my experience. We usually think of Manuals as telling us how to operate something, not how to, for example, make great pictures. But in this case, they key processes for best measuring light are not mentioned in the Manual at all.

[Mike Buckley]

By industry consensus, a manual is designed to explain how a product works, not how to use the product. As an example, a manual explains where the shutter release button is, not when to press it.

[Manfred M]

By industry consensus, a manual is designed to explain how a product works, not how to use the product. As an example, a manual explains where the shutter release button is, now when to press it.

+1 to Mike's comments AND even at that those details might not be as complete as we would like.

[Mike Buckley]

AND even at that those details might not be as complete as we would like.

So true! I have even found software and hardware manuals to be inaccurate. As just one example, I convinced Epson to give me coupons valued at $300 toward a future purchase because the manual pertaining to their digital projector I had bought was just plain wrong and highly misleading about a particular capability that was important to me, because the people at customer support were not familiar with either the product or its manual, and because I in effect became their consultant that taught them information they and the authors of the manual didn't know.

[rpcrowe]

So true! I have even found software and hardware manuals to be inaccurate. As just one example, I convinced Epson to give me coupons valued at $300 toward a future purchase because the manual pertaining to their digital projector I had bought was just plain wrong and highly misleading about a particular capability that was important to me, because the people at customer support were not familiar with either the product or its manual, and because I in effect became their consultant that taught them information they and the authors of the manual didn't know.

Experts are not always EXPERT... The tongue in cheek definition of an "expert" is: Someone from out of town who has a Powerpoint Presentation

I once attended a Canon presentation on the use of Canon hotshoe flashes given by a guy who is employed by Canon and is all over YouTube as an Canon Expert.

He was talking about High Speed Sync and I asked him, "Since when you are in HSS mode and your shutter speed goes below the maximum for the camera flash combination (1/200 second for some cameras and 1/250 second for others); the sync will revert to normal sync, why even have a HSS setting. Why not just have the camera revert to HSS when your shutter speed is faster than the maximum and revert back to standard sync when the shutter speed is slower than the 1/200 or 1/250 second max shutter speed That is the way I have my camera/flash combo set up

The "Expert" did not know that this happens with Canon cameras and denied that the sync worked that way. I had to point it out to him in instruction manuals. He certainly was not very gracious when I did so

[tripbeetle]

No. They are both affected by JPEG settings. I was saying that the histogram is not connected to the exposure indicator. Try changing shutter speed in the manual mode - the exposure indicator moves up and down the scale, the histogram does not change. The histogram is shown not for the image you are about to take but for the image currently displayed on the LCD. Take some test shots when the exposure indicator is at +2, 0, -2 and compare the histograms of the recorded images to the histogram you saw on the LCD just before pressing the shutter.


Either ON or OFF, they always do. But when it is ON, you see the actual histogram of the image you are about to record and when it is OFF, you see the histogram of the "optimal" image when the exposure indicator is showing zero. I do not know why Fuji thought that this was a good idea. They also do not tell us how the position of the exposure indicator is calculated in the manual mode (but I bet it is from "average" metering). In aperture priority, there are several options of how to assign the desired exposure level. For example, the same histogram can be achieved with say using
1) face detection
2) spot metering off something white +2EV
3) spot metering off something black -2EV
4) average metering +0.5EV
So the position of the exposure indicator depends a lot on the metering mode, not the histogram alone. All this is gone in the manual mode and replaced by a little tick moving up and down.

I suppose the main point here is, if you want to rely on the in-camera light meter, do not use manual mode or at least turn the exposure preview ON.


I just meant that certain JPEG settings can improve the clarity of the image on camera's LCD and also shift the histogram in case you are doing ETTR and mainly interested in RAW files. And the quickest way of finding that out is by using the in-camera RAW converter: take one shot, covert it using different JPEG settings, toggle between the JPEG images to see the effect. I didn't suggest changing your workflow and developing all RAWs in camera

Thanks for that, Dem. It sure is confusing, and the comment about not knowing why Fuji decided to do things that way is therefore very helpful. I'll need to get my camera back from repair (sent in just a couple of days ago) to sit down with it and work through what you're saying, but I feel I'm on the way to getting a grasp of it.

However...

The histogram is shown not for the image you are about to take but for the image currently displayed on the LCD.

being without my camera for the next few days, I can't definitely say, but I seem to recall the histogram being visible while in shooting mode and changing according to where I pointed the camera. That's what I thought ETTR was all about.

[dem]

... why Fuji decided to do things that way...

Having "exposure preview" OFF can be useful when you are trying to take a picture at a concert/church/event where shining a torch at people or using camera's focus assist light is not an option. Or you are using flash as the main light source, or doing long exposure etc...

This is exactly where electronic viewfinders have an edge over the optical ones and such advantage is sure going to be explored by the marketing and burnt into camera's default settings (sometimes without an option of changing it).

I know your camera does not have a built-in viewfinder and can have "exposure preview" ON or OFF, so the last paragraph is not really relevant to you.

I seem to recall the histogram being visible while in shooting mode and changing according to where I pointed the camera.

As it should do.

That's what I thought ETTR was all about.

ETTR is about making sure that the histogram is almost touching the right hand side of the scale. This is mainly done by changing exposure parameters in the manual mode or by applying exposure compensation when auto exposure is engaged.

[tripbeetle]

Hi Dem, thanks for that. I've read your post #40 several times, but I'm afraid I won't be able to grasp the gist of it (especially "The histogram is shown not for the image you are about to take but for the image currently displayed on the LCD.") until I get my camera back again and can do some more fiddling. Will have to retire from the discussion until then, I think.

[inkista]

David, the X70, if it's anything like my X100T in EVF mode, does have a live histogram that can show you the data for the shot you're about to take; most dSLRs, by the nature of their optical viewfinders, do not, and only show a histogram on image playback.

A dSLR optical viewfinder isn't the same as liveview on the LCD on the back of the camera or in an electronic viewfinder. Instead of getting all data from the sensor, you're seeing the same light that's coming in through the taking lens that the sensor sees. The light is split by a mirror in the camera--part goes up into the camera's viewfinder, and part goes to the autofocus sensor array. When an image is being taken, or liveview is engaged, the mirror diverts the light that would go to the viewfinder to the main image sensor.

With this type of optical viewfinder, setting information is typically on a frame around the image area as you look through the viewfinder. The only information overlaid on the image area may come from an LCD sandwiched with the focus screen, if the camera has one--most of them don't. Since dSLR users tend to use the viewfinder more than the LCD for composition, that means a lot of liveview features, such as exposure compensation, focus peaking, or a live histogram are rarer in usage for dSLR shooters. It's also why tools like the light meter become verra handy in their absence.

For a lot of dSLR users, the only histogram they can see is the one on image playback. "P&S" camera liveview features tended to trickle back to dSLRs relatively slowly. My first Canon dSLR, the XT/350D, didn't even have liveview, let alone exposure simulation--both features, my much-older Powershot S30 always had.

[tripbeetle]

David, the X70, if it's anything like my X100T in EVF mode, does have a live histogram that can show you the data for the shot you're about to take

Hi Kathy, thanks for that. I, too, interpreted Dem's comment as meaning that the X-series histogram was available only in playback mode, but apparently that's not what he meant. I'll have to wait till I get my camera back to work on that one.

But your explanation very much clarified the situation between DSLRs and P&Ss. From what you say it seems that DSLRs tend to be based on a more cerebral - as opposed to intuitive - approach to photography.